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Post by The Fence End on Apr 22, 2016 22:14:22 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto.
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Post by whingit on Apr 22, 2016 22:50:20 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto. American states have to accept laws imposed on them by Washington.
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Post by The Fence End on Apr 23, 2016 7:45:23 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto. American states have to accept laws imposed on them by Washington. Fine, when congress accept laws imposed on them by Toronto Obama can lecture us. If voting out really was going to be so disastrous do you really think they'd allow us to vote on it? We'll be fine. We just need to be brave.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Apr 23, 2016 8:05:29 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto. Nonsensical comparison. UK is part of EU and as such has signed up to accept rules/regulations/laws (call them what you like) agreed by itself and other members. You can't join a club then bitch about the rules of that club that you were fully aware of when you joined. Toronto has no economic or political sway over Washington at all, and never will have. Besides, I didn't hear any 'lecture' in what Obama said, just a statement of fact that some are now choosing to misinterpret to support their own fears about how those beastly foreigners are overwhelming us. Some of the 'leavers' need to be more honest and admit it's xenophobia that drives them - stand up Mr Farage with his ridiculous comments yesterday - rather than a genuine belief that the UK would be better alone. PS 'We just need to be brave'? Is that like 'we just need to believe' on this forum? Utter, utter rubbish.
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Post by The Fence End on Apr 23, 2016 8:12:19 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto. Nonsensical comparison. UK is part of EU and as such has signed up to accept rules/regulations/laws (call them what you like) agreed by itself and other members. You can't join a club then bitch about the rules of that club that you were fully aware of when you joined. Toronto has no economic or political sway over Washington at all, and never will have. Besides, I didn't hear any 'lecture' in what Obama said, just a statement of fact that some are now choosing to misinterpret to support their own fears about how those beastly foreigners are overwhelming us. Some of the 'leavers' need to be more honest and admit it's xenophobia that drives them - stand up Mr Farage with his ridiculous comments yesterday - rather than a genuine belief that the UK would be better alone. PS 'We just need to be brave'? Is that like 'we just need to believe' on this forum? Utter, utter rubbish. It's about self-governance for me. And thankfully we have the opportunity to leave that club which we should take. And like I say if leaving were to be so disastrous why would the government even allow us to vote on the issue? No one can answer that one it seems.
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Post by Young Money on Apr 23, 2016 8:18:10 GMT
I can answer it.
It wouldn't be disastrous, probably. Neither option would, probably.
The truth is (and very few people seem to be saying it for some reason):
No-one knows what exactly would happen in either scenario. Both would probably have some good outcomes, and some bad. There's no way of knowing for sure and no-one actually knows. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. There are good and bad arguments to both.
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Post by The Fence End on Apr 23, 2016 8:24:24 GMT
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Post by The Fence End on Apr 23, 2016 8:26:02 GMT
I can answer it. It wouldn't be disastrous, probably. Neither option would, probably. The truth is (and very few people seem to be saying it for some reason): No-one knows what exactly would happen in either scenario. Both would probably have some good outcomes, and some bad. There's no way of knowing for sure and no-one actually knows. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. There are good and bad arguments to both. It's almost a case of voting with your heart rather than your head. It sometimes feels like the question is 'do you want to be British or European?'
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Post by saddletramp on Apr 23, 2016 8:44:58 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto. Nonsensical comparison. UK is part of EU and as such has signed up to accept rules/regulations/laws (call them what you like) agreed by itself and other members. You can't join a club then bitch about the rules of that club that you were fully aware of when you joined. Toronto has no economic or political sway over Washington at all, and never will have. Besides, I didn't hear any 'lecture' in what Obama said, just a statement of fact that some are now choosing to misinterpret to support their own fears about how those beastly foreigners are overwhelming us. Some of the 'leavers' need to be more honest and admit it's xenophobia that drives them - stand up Mr Farage with his ridiculous comments yesterday - rather than a genuine belief that the UK would be better alone. PS 'We just need to be brave'? Is that like 'we just need to believe' on this forum? Utter, utter rubbish. The "club" as you call it consisted of 6 members when we voted to join,Germany,France,Belgium,Italy,Luxembourg and Holland. It was a trading "club" and had nothing to do with borders,immigration,or what light bulbs you could use. When people voted in,in 73,which of the millions of rules that have been implemented since then were they "fully aware of" The 73 vote has nothing to do with what is happening today,to have voted in that,you had to be born in 1955 or earlier,a lot of the countries in "the club" today were still under Russian rule at that time. As for Xenophobia,the Treasury are making ridiculous financial forecasts for 2030,what they haven't factored into their calculations,is that at current immigration rates,the population of the UK will have increased by 6 MILLION by then. 90% of all immigrants that enter the UK stay in England. So where would you suggest these 5 Million+ people live ? Where would you suggest they go to school ? which Doctors surgery/hospital would you suggest they attend ? If realising that unsustainable mass immigration on this scale is Xenophobic,then count me in. If you think mass immigration is sustainable,you should join another club,maybe we should name them "the Ostriches" (with apologies to our own Ostrich) People go on about how much we export to the EU,i would like to see how much we actually export to,Slovenia,Slovakia,Romania,Latvia,Lithuania,Estonia,Poland,Malta,Croatia,Bulgaria,etc. But hey,im sure the next 7 in line to join,Kosovo,Albania,Montenegro,Turkey,Iceland,Bosnia and Serbia will be massive export markets for British firms. P.S.When the last vote was held in 1973,the population of England was 43 million,its now 53 million,if people knew that the population of England would rise TEN MILLION,or 23% in the next 40 years,how many would have voted no ?
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Post by Pete Burrett on Apr 23, 2016 9:05:51 GMT
Nonsensical comparison. UK is part of EU and as such has signed up to accept rules/regulations/laws (call them what you like) agreed by itself and other members. You can't join a club then bitch about the rules of that club that you were fully aware of when you joined. Toronto has no economic or political sway over Washington at all, and never will have. Besides, I didn't hear any 'lecture' in what Obama said, just a statement of fact that some are now choosing to misinterpret to support their own fears about how those beastly foreigners are overwhelming us. Some of the 'leavers' need to be more honest and admit it's xenophobia that drives them - stand up Mr Farage with his ridiculous comments yesterday - rather than a genuine belief that the UK would be better alone. PS 'We just need to be brave'? Is that like 'we just need to believe' on this forum? Utter, utter rubbish. The "club" as you call it consisted of 6 members when we voted to join,Germany,France,Belgium,Italy,Luxembourg and Holland. It was a trading "club" and had nothing to do with borders,immigration,or what light bulbs you could use. When people voted in,in 73,which of the millions of rules that have been implemented since then were they "fully aware of" The 73 vote has nothing to do with what is happening today,to have voted in that,you had to be born in 1955 or earlier,a lot of the countries in "the club" today were still under Russian rule at that time. As for Xenophobia,the Treasury are making ridiculous financial forecasts for 2030,what they haven't factored into their calculations,is that at current immigration rates,the population of the UK will have increased by 6 MILLION by then. 90% of all immigrants that enter the UK stay in England. So where would you suggest these 5 Million+ people live ? Where would you suggest they go to school ? which Doctors surgery/hospital would you suggest they attend ? If realising that unsustainable mass immigration on this scale is Xenophobic,then count me in. If you think mass immigration is sustainable,you should join another club,maybe we should name them "the Ostriches" (with apologies to our own Ostrich) People go on about how much we export to the EU,i would like to see how much we actually export to,Slovenia,Slovakia,Romania,Latvia,Lithuania,Estonia,Poland,Malta,Croatia,Bulgaria,etc. But hey,im sure the next 7 in line to join,Kosovo,Albania,Montenegro,Turkey,Iceland,Bosnia and Serbia will be massive export markets for British firms. P.S.When the last vote was held in 1973,the population of England was 43 million,its now 53 million,if people knew that the population of England would rise TEN MILLION,or 23% in the next 40 years,how many would have voted no ? You raise some very interesting points. But the UK voted with others to allow more and more countries into the EU, it wasn't forced onto us. And there's a big difference between identifying the problems of mass immigration - as you have done - and wanting to leave because we don't want to be under the yolk of foreigners, a message I hear daily on TV or read on Facebook. The first concern is valid, the second is xenophobic. Anyhow, we all get to vote soon. Unfortunately most will vote on a knee jerk basis rather than because they're in full command of the relevant facts. I may well be one of them.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Apr 23, 2016 9:06:47 GMT
I can answer it. It wouldn't be disastrous, probably. Neither option would, probably. The truth is (and very few people seem to be saying it for some reason): No-one knows what exactly would happen in either scenario. Both would probably have some good outcomes, and some bad. There's no way of knowing for sure and no-one actually knows. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. There are good and bad arguments to both. It's almost a case of voting with your heart rather than your head. It sometimes feels like the question is 'do you want to be British or European?' Surely we're both and will remain so, whatever the outcome of the vote?
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Post by saddletramp on Apr 23, 2016 9:07:49 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countriesThe population of the UK per Sq Km is the 4th highest in the EU. The population per Sq Km of England is 430,the highest of mainland EU, almost double that of Germany,233, almost 4 times that of France 111. almost 5 times that of Spain 92. How many people do we let in before the powers to be decide we are full ?
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 23, 2016 9:09:34 GMT
I think Barrack Obama should keep his nose out of our affairs, Trying the blackmail tactics by saying we would be the last to do trade deals with f*ck the yanks Or maybe, rather than sticking his nose into our affairs, he's just stating facts. It makes sense for the US to deal with a large trading bloc like the EU, rather than striking up individual deals. I don't see 'blackmail' in what he's said, just a lot of realism. Is it just 'f*ck the yanks', or 'f*ck all of those foreigners'? The yanks get involved in everything they want us as their puppets, Remeber Bush/Blair labour were snuggling up to the yanks in everything. But in your final bit of your post I think you are trying to make out I'm rasicst which I'm not, I just feel that we would be better of out rather than in
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 23, 2016 9:12:22 GMT
Obama can lecture us when America accept laws imposed on then by Toronto. Nonsensical comparison. UK is part of EU and as such has signed up to accept rules/regulations/laws (call them what you like) agreed by itself and other members. You can't join a club then bitch about the rules of that club that you were fully aware of when you joined. Toronto has no economic or political sway over Washington at all, and never will have. Besides, I didn't hear any 'lecture' in what Obama said, just a statement of fact that some are now choosing to misinterpret to support their own fears about how those beastly foreigners are overwhelming us. Some of the 'leavers' need to be more honest and admit it's xenophobia that drives them - stand up Mr Farage with his ridiculous comments yesterday - rather than a genuine belief that the UK would be better alone. PS 'We just need to be brave'? Is that like 'we just need to believe' on this forum? Utter, utter rubbish. Well we know which way you will be voting Pete, Better bring your soap box along to the Kastad and start shouting why we should stay in
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Post by Pete Burrett on Apr 23, 2016 9:17:10 GMT
Or maybe, rather than sticking his nose into our affairs, he's just stating facts. It makes sense for the US to deal with a large trading bloc like the EU, rather than striking up individual deals. I don't see 'blackmail' in what he's said, just a lot of realism. Is it just 'f*ck the yanks', or 'f*ck all of those foreigners'? The yanks get involved in everything they want us as their puppets, Remeber Bush/Blair labour were snuggling up to the yanks in everything. But in your final bit of your post I think you are trying to make out I'm rasicst which I'm not, I just feel that we would be better of out rather than in I don't think you're at all racist Bazzer, just a bit xenophobic. Very different things. I'm not fond of US global power, but it's a reality and there ain't much we can do about it. The British Empire once had world dominance, now it's the US.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Apr 23, 2016 9:20:56 GMT
Well said Saddletramp, good points made.
It is like being in a shared house, at the start it was great because we all shared the milk and were safer together. But then more and more people started to come for the same ideal, and there is not enough milk to go around, not enough cutlery or bedrooms or bathrooms or space. Also the quality of guest is gradually declining. Some of them are criminals and untidy.The logical thing to do is to close the door and restrict who can enter and leave to ease the problem. It isn't the guests I hate, it is the trouble they inadvertently bring.
So many people moan about encroachment on countryside land (Woodstock and North Leigh housing developments come to mind) whilst simultaneously moaning about a shortage in school places, hospital beds, housing etc. But when you point out that 300,000 extra people every year for the last 5-10 years will do that, they don't seem to have such an issue.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 23, 2016 9:37:18 GMT
The yanks get involved in everything they want us as their puppets, Remeber Bush/Blair labour were snuggling up to the yanks in everything. But in your final bit of your post I think you are trying to make out I'm rasicst which I'm not, I just feel that we would be better of out rather than in I don't think you're at all racist Bazzer, just a bit xenophobic. Very different things. I'm not fond of US global power, but it's a reality and there ain't much we can do about it. The British Empire once had world dominance, now it's the US. But Blair didn't help signing the Lisbon agreement which basically gave our country to the EU .He did this without any consultation, Bt that was Blair for you a very week minded Prime Minister. As you say we had the Empire and were a Country not to be messed with, The yanks do what they want whenever they want and people are to afraid to say no. But as Boris said yesterday would they listen to others?
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Post by m on Apr 23, 2016 10:35:00 GMT
If voting out really was going to be so disastrous do you really think they'd allow us to vote on it? That is quite possibly the most absurd argument I've heard yet, bravo!
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Post by The Fence End on Apr 24, 2016 7:44:34 GMT
Questions for those who want to stay in the EU:
Why do you want to keep sending £350million per week to the EU and not spend it within the UK?
Why do you want EU laws to over ride British laws?
Why don't you want the UK to control it's own borders?
Why do you feel the UK is unable to govern itself?
Why do you feel the UK lacks the diplomatic talent to form our own trade agreements?
Why do you think the UK will become the North Korea of the west if we leave the EU?
Why do you want to be European and not British?
Please answer as at the moment I simply can't understand the mentality of those who want to stay in.
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Post by flean on Apr 24, 2016 8:35:18 GMT
Questions for those who want to stay in the EU: Why do you want to keep sending £350million per week to the EU and not spend it within the UK? Complete fabrication. In 2015 the UK contributed to the EU 17.8 billion pounds. The rebate was 4.9 billion, the EU gave the UK 4.4 billion so the actual 'cost' was 6.3 billion. Look here for more (http://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/)Why do you want EU laws to over ride British laws? 13.2% of laws have even a reference to the EU. Even a tiny reference. Give a list of EU laws the you believe override British laws.Why don't you want the UK to control it's own borders? The UK has complete control of it's own borders. Have you not been to a port or airport? Passport checks, they can say 'no' to whoever they like as they are not in the Schengen agreement.
Why do you feel the UK is unable to govern itself? Trying to take this seriously, but it's impossible. Sorry. No comment.Why do you feel the UK lacks the diplomatic talent to form our own trade agreements? See Obama's comments yesterday.Why do you think the UK will become the North Korea of the west if we leave the EU? Who said that? Why do you want to be European and not British? This is getting funnier. I'm a Brit who lives in Germany. Is that ok for you?Please answer as at the moment I simply can't understand the mentality of those who want to stay in.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 24, 2016 8:57:02 GMT
Questions for those who want to stay in the EU: Why do you want to keep sending £350million per week to the EU and not spend it within the UK? Complete fabrication. In 2015 the UK contributed to the EU 17.8 billion pounds. The rebate was 4.9 billion, the EU gave the UK 4.4 billion so the actual 'cost' was 6.3 billion. Look here for more (http://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/)Why do you want EU laws to over ride British laws? 13.2% of laws have even a reference to the EU. Even a tiny reference. Give a list of EU laws the you believe override British laws.Why don't you want the UK to control it's own borders? The UK has complete control of it's own borders. Have you not been to a port or airport? Passport checks, they can say 'no' to whoever they like as they are not in the Schengen agreement.
Why do you feel the UK is unable to govern itself? Trying to take this seriously, but it's impossible. Sorry. No comment.Why do you feel the UK lacks the diplomatic talent to form our own trade agreements? See Obama's comments yesterday.Why do you think the UK will become the North Korea of the west if we leave the EU? Who said that? Why do you want to be European and not British? This is getting funnier. I'm a Brit who lives in Germany. Is that ok for you?Please answer as at the moment I simply can't understand the mentality of those who want to stay in. Another piece of scaremongering, As Boris said would thee yanks listen if it was them that were voting to leave something and outsiders stuck their bloody noses in.
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Post by saddletramp on Apr 24, 2016 9:12:21 GMT
Questions for those who want to stay in the EU: Why do you want to keep sending £350million per week to the EU and not spend it within the UK? Complete fabrication. In 2015 the UK contributed to the EU 17.8 billion pounds. The rebate was 4.9 billion, the EU gave the UK 4.4 billion so the actual 'cost' was 6.3 billion. Look here for more (http://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/)Why do you want EU laws to over ride British laws? 13.2% of laws have even a reference to the EU. Even a tiny reference. Give a list of EU laws the you believe override British laws.Why don't you want the UK to control it's own borders? The UK has complete control of it's own borders. Have you not been to a port or airport? Passport checks, they can say 'no' to whoever they like as they are not in the Schengen agreement.
Why do you feel the UK is unable to govern itself? Trying to take this seriously, but it's impossible. Sorry. No comment.Why do you feel the UK lacks the diplomatic talent to form our own trade agreements? See Obama's comments yesterday.Why do you think the UK will become the North Korea of the west if we leave the EU? Who said that? Why do you want to be European and not British? This is getting funnier. I'm a Brit who lives in Germany. Is that ok for you?Please answer as at the moment I simply can't understand the mentality of those who want to stay in. So we pay £17.8 bill,we get a rebate of £4.9 bill,the EU gives us £4.4 bill,so we only pay £6.3 bill. So in your world 17.8 - 4.9 - 4.4 = 6.3 ? Theirs a job waiting for you in Brussels,signing off the annual accounts.
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Post by flean on Apr 24, 2016 10:14:40 GMT
So we pay £17.8 bill,we get a rebate of £4.9 bill,the EU gives us £4.4 bill,so we only pay £6.3 bill. So in your world 17.8 - 4.9 - 4.4 = 6.3 ? Theirs a job waiting for you in Brussels,signing off the annual accounts. Did you read the article I linked? I was summarising, but if you can't be bothered to read it, 1.4 billion is given to the UK private sector, and 0.8 billion that counts as EU aid towards developing countries. There, their Saddletramp. Don't apply for a job as an English teacher.
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Post by flean on Apr 24, 2016 10:16:21 GMT
Another piece of scaremongering, As Boris said would thee yanks listen if it was them that were voting to leave something and outsiders stuck their bloody noses in. Not scaremongering at all. An honest view that shows the UK isn't the world leading power some people still think it is.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 24, 2016 10:38:27 GMT
Another piece of scaremongering, As Boris said would thee yanks listen if it was them that were voting to leave something and outsiders stuck their bloody noses in. Not scaremongering at all. An honest view that shows the UK isn't the world leading power some people still think it is. But Blair was in Bush's pocket I hope Cameron isn't in Obama's, We will cope with trade the yanks will want to trade their goods with us but we can put them at the back of the queue.
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Post by flean on Apr 24, 2016 10:50:48 GMT
Not scaremongering at all. An honest view that shows the UK isn't the world leading power some people still think it is. But Blair was in Bush's pocket I hope Cameron isn't in Obama's, We will cope with trade the yanks will want to trade their goods with us but we can put them at the back of the queue. So who would be at the front of your queue of nations desperate to buy our products?
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Post by Pete Burrett on Apr 24, 2016 10:59:58 GMT
Talking of scaremongering, Boris is a clever bugger. Knows how to push the right buttons. America is trying to tell us what to do, apparently. I see it as wise words of caution.
Boris isn't the first to adopt these tactics. Remember poor old William Hague with his '24 hours to save the pound' nonsense?
We need less arrogance of empire and more realisation that, although we're still a very, very wealthy country, we have no God-given right to lord it over other nations any more.
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Post by saddletramp on Apr 24, 2016 11:33:03 GMT
So we pay £17.8 bill,we get a rebate of £4.9 bill,the EU gives us £4.4 bill,so we only pay £6.3 bill. So in your world 17.8 - 4.9 - 4.4 = 6.3 ? Theirs a job waiting for you in Brussels,signing off the annual accounts. Did you read the article I linked? I was summarising, but if you can't be bothered to read it, 1.4 billion is given to the UK private sector, and 0.8 billion that counts as EU aid towards developing countries. There, their Saddletramp. Don't apply for a job as an English teacher. Nope I didn't read it,your link doesn't work. Flean,dont apply for a job in IT ! P.S. When I went to school "sums" were done in a maths lessons,not English.
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Post by flean on Apr 24, 2016 11:44:14 GMT
Did you read the article I linked? I was summarising, but if you can't be bothered to read it, 1.4 billion is given to the UK private sector, and 0.8 billion that counts as EU aid towards developing countries. There, their Saddletramp. Don't apply for a job as an English teacher. Nope I didn't read it,your link doesn't work. Flean,dont apply for a job in IT ! P.S. When I went to school "sums" were done in a maths lessons,not English. linkYou're completely right, sums are taught in maths lessons, but basic use of the English language however.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 24, 2016 13:02:36 GMT
But Blair was in Bush's pocket I hope Cameron isn't in Obama's, We will cope with trade the yanks will want to trade their goods with us but we can put them at the back of the queue. So who would be at the front of your queue of nations desperate to buy our products? Quite a few
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