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Post by amarillo on Sept 22, 2014 11:26:01 GMT
its quite obvious what offence it was given for surely?!
seeing that incident once in real time and having to make a split second decision its hardly a shocker. On reflection and a closer look, its a soft one
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 11:35:17 GMT
Its a soft penalty, but the type of penalty that gets given these days. The premiership is guilty of giving decisions like that frequently. I don't like Clattenberg, definitely don't rate him. However in his defence from the position he was in he has made a split second decision. He doesn't have the benefit of replays. He should of given the foul before hand but he never, so thats the end of it I guess. They are always going to make a few mistakes, you have to give them that. Any idea what it was for though ? Vardy veers across Rafael, goes down and the ref says penalty. No leg out, no arm out, just two player tussling for the ball and one decides to fall over. Why do you think it was given ? For what actual offence ? The offence is a foul. A striker has been touched by a defender in the penalty area and gone down, a pretty common thing. If I was Rafael I would be fuming, but he should know better for giving him the opportunity to go down.
Its as soft as you like, but that's modern football.
Could argue all day about no leg/arm being out but everyone knows that's enough to get you a penalty these days. Is it right? Of course not but that's football today.
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Post by baldy on Sept 22, 2014 13:01:38 GMT
Any idea what it was for though ? Vardy veers across Rafael, goes down and the ref says penalty. No leg out, no arm out, just two player tussling for the ball and one decides to fall over. Why do you think it was given ? For what actual offence ? The offence is a foul. A striker has been touched by a defender in the penalty area and gone down, a pretty common thing. If I was Rafael I would be fuming, but he should know better for giving him the opportunity to go down.
Its as soft as you like, but that's modern football.
Could argue all day about no leg/arm being out but everyone knows that's enough to get you a penalty these days. Is it right? Of course not but that's football today.
Well, yes, I guessed a foul ! What I'm asking is what type of foul - Push ? Pull ? Trip ? Which one because I haven't got a clue. I can't see any of them.
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Post by SteMerritt on Sept 22, 2014 13:15:47 GMT
Well, I have seen the main talking points of the Leicester v Man Utd game. Not a penalty, and Man Utd should be ashamed of themselves for some of that defending. The penalty decision can't be used to excuse what followed.
I will now retire from this thread as it is in danger of going down the way of threads in the bad old days.
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Post by Hicko on Sept 22, 2014 13:52:46 GMT
when a play is running at top speed, its very easy for him to lose his balance. any slight knock will send him over.
and the irony of 2 man utd fans complaining about conceding a penalty to a dive/soft penalty. Obviously it would have been a "good old fashioned shoulder barge" and there was "enough contact to send him down" if it had been happening to the away team.
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Post by amarillo on Sept 22, 2014 14:14:23 GMT
Well, yes, I guessed a foul ! What I'm asking is what type of foul - Push ? Pull ? Trip ? Which one because I haven't got a clue. I can't see any of them. but how many times have you watched it? on big screen slow motion
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 14:14:35 GMT
The offence is a foul. A striker has been touched by a defender in the penalty area and gone down, a pretty common thing. If I was Rafael I would be fuming, but he should know better for giving him the opportunity to go down.
Its as soft as you like, but that's modern football.
Could argue all day about no leg/arm being out but everyone knows that's enough to get you a penalty these days. Is it right? Of course not but that's football today.
Well, yes, I guessed a foul ! What I'm asking is what type of foul - Push ? Pull ? Trip ? Which one because I haven't got a clue. I can't see any of them. A Push.........
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Post by tonyw on Sept 22, 2014 14:57:45 GMT
Man U should never ever lose that from the position they were in but I think that could be the pattern of their season, lots of five, six, seven goal matches. They have the best attack in the PL bar none, that's obvious, but unless they can sort a centre back pairing out then there will perhaps be too many days like this. I've said consistently that they are ken centre back short but from Evans, Rojos, Jones, Smalling, Rafael, Shaw and Blackett they should be able to perm four that stay in some sort of form. I'd go, when all fit, Jones at right back, Evans and Rojos down the middle and Shaw at left back. They need to play and build partnerships though. All crap aside though let's not lose sight of what turned that game. I doubt you will see a more woeful sequence of refereeing in the PL this season. Everyone could see it, Rafael was blatantly shoved off the ball and he never touched Vqrdy in the box. Watch it, Vardy just falls into Rafael. It's ridiculous refereeing. Man U were coasting and possession was something like 70/30 in their favour. They get a lifeline, the crowd get right up, Man U lose their shape probably down to feeling hard done by. No complaints with The Blackett red - definite penalty. I'm going to ignore the next two pages of comments - it was clearly a woeful piece of refereeing, it clearly did change the game, but equally clearly a team with a really solid defense and strong on-field defensive leadership doesn't then fall apart and concede three more goals to a willing but limited Leicester City - and focus on Baldy's first post which was balanced and gets to the nub of the issue. Namely is Man U's stellar all-World Class attack going to be torpedoed by a leaky defense that is desperately lacking in experience and leadership (and could be about to lose what little it has left if Johnny Evans is out for an extended period, as much as I think he's a bit average)? And how has it come to this? How can you take a side that had only an average defense last year, subtract Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra (i.e. all your experienced defenders), add only two talented youngsters in Rojo and Shaw and expect everything to run smoothly. In those circumstances, capitulations like yesterday were absolutely inevitable - it was just surprising that it happened against Leicester and not one of the many genuinely talented attacking Premiership sides. Frankly I'm starting to get really p*ssed off at the Premiership's lack of appreciation for the defensive arts. It's not just Man U - Arsenal and Chelsea have come into the season exceptionally thin in defense (decent starting back fours, zero depth) and Liverpool have taken a poor defense from last season and barely improved it. The majority that love their fancy dan wingers and flashy goalscorers might be happy, but for those of us that appreciate quality defending, this has been a horrific summer. Thank goodness for Vincent Kompany is all I can say.......
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Post by Junior on Sept 22, 2014 16:59:01 GMT
That defence, the defence that everyone was slating before yesterday's game was in the top 3 defences in the league. Ironic that, don't you think..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 17:08:42 GMT
Man U should never ever lose that from the position they were in but I think that could be the pattern of their season, lots of five, six, seven goal matches. They have the best attack in the PL bar none, that's obvious, but unless they can sort a centre back pairing out then there will perhaps be too many days like this. I've said consistently that they are ken centre back short but from Evans, Rojos, Jones, Smalling, Rafael, Shaw and Blackett they should be able to perm four that stay in some sort of form. I'd go, when all fit, Jones at right back, Evans and Rojos down the middle and Shaw at left back. They need to play and build partnerships though. All crap aside though let's not lose sight of what turned that game. I doubt you will see a more woeful sequence of refereeing in the PL this season. Everyone could see it, Rafael was blatantly shoved off the ball and he never touched Vqrdy in the box. Watch it, Vardy just falls into Rafael. It's ridiculous refereeing. Man U were coasting and possession was something like 70/30 in their favour. They get a lifeline, the crowd get right up, Man U lose their shape probably down to feeling hard done by. No complaints with The Blackett red - definite penalty. I'm going to ignore the next two pages of comments - it was clearly a woeful piece of refereeing, it clearly did change the game, but equally clearly a team with a really solid defense and strong on-field defensive leadership doesn't then fall apart and concede three more goals to a willing but limited Leicester City - and focus on Baldy's first post which was balanced and gets to the nub of the issue. Namely is Man U's stellar all-World Class attack going to be torpedoed by a leaky defense that is desperately lacking in experience and leadership (and could be about to lose what little it has left if Johnny Evans is out for an extended period, as much as I think he's a bit average)? And how has it come to this? How can you take a side that had only an average defense last year, subtract Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra (i.e. all your experienced defenders), add only two talented youngsters in Rojo and Shaw and expect everything to run smoothly. In those circumstances, capitulations like yesterday were absolutely inevitable - it was just surprising that it happened against Leicester and not one of the many genuinely talented attacking Premiership sides. Frankly I'm starting to get really p*ssed off at the Premiership's lack of appreciation for the defensive arts. It's not just Man U - Arsenal and Chelsea have come into the season exceptionally thin in defense (decent starting back fours, zero depth) and Liverpool have taken a poor defense from last season and barely improved it. The majority that love their fancy dan wingers and flashy goalscorers might be happy, but for those of us that appreciate quality defending, this has been a horrific summer. Thank goodness for Vincent Kompany is all I can say....... Kompany is so incredibly overrated
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Post by bonfireman on Sept 22, 2014 17:25:44 GMT
That defence, the defence that everyone was slating before yesterday's game was in the top 3 defences in the league. Ironic that, don't you think.. Are you still banging on about man u f*cking nited? You boring boy
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Post by nige01ox on Sept 22, 2014 17:45:14 GMT
That defence, the defence that everyone was slating before yesterday's game was in the top 3 defences in the league. Ironic that, don't you think.. Only because of a machine sorting out the fixtures the way it did. They'd played 4 games against weak opposition, or certainly weak attacks, Swansea being the only decent team. Bugger me you'd have thought they'd been shutting out Real Madrid the way you keep going on about it.
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Post by Junior on Sept 22, 2014 17:50:47 GMT
Can only play against the teams in front of you. If their defence is that poor surely those teams wouldn't have a problem netting against them..
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Post by Junior on Sept 22, 2014 17:52:31 GMT
That defence, the defence that everyone was slating before yesterday's game was in the top 3 defences in the league. Ironic that, don't you think.. Are you still banging on about man u f*cking nited? You boring boy Who are Man U f*cking nited
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Post by stevegilbert on Sept 22, 2014 17:59:54 GMT
Can only play against the teams in front of you. If their defence is that poor surely those teams wouldn't have a problem netting against them.. 12th best defence in the league now though. If their defence is that great and their attack so great then why do they only have 5 points from a possible 15? Even Baldy is talking more sense about Man U these days. Maybe you could learn from your hero.
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Post by bigfella72 on Sept 22, 2014 18:16:55 GMT
Vardy used his arm to push Rafael and then as I see it virtually jumped into Rafael in the box making contact with the united defender rather than the other way round! If Ashley Young had done the same there would be outrage!
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Post by mooro on Sept 22, 2014 18:58:40 GMT
Leicester are rapidly becoming my favourite side in the Prem this season - I like Pearson, I like their attitude and I like the fact that Ulloa seems to genuinely enjoy playing and scoring for them...(he's getting me a nice bunch of Fantasy League points too). I really hope they get due reward for their approach to this season and stay well clear of the drop zone. Saying that, and to echo one post somewhere up in the previous five pages - What a goal by di Maria, I doubt I'll see anything to beat that for me this season!!
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Post by Junior on Sept 22, 2014 19:13:02 GMT
Vardy used his arm to push Rafael and then as I see it virtually jumped into Rafael in the box making contact with the united defender rather than the other way round! If Ashley Young had done the same there would be outrage! Steady, talking sense like that is not allowed on here when it comes to Manchester Utd...
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Post by baldy on Sept 22, 2014 19:17:52 GMT
Vardy used his arm to push Rafael and then as I see it virtually jumped into Rafael in the box making contact with the united defender rather than the other way round! If Ashley Young had done the same there would be outrage! That's the sort of measured and accurate response that would save an awful lot of bickering on here. I have acknowledged Man U's shortcomings in seeing that game out so it's not all one way from me but this is the first response that I've seen that basically says exactly what happened. Vardy fouled in the first instance and then dived. I've criticised Rafael's exuberance in defensive situations before - especially inside the box - but in this instance he's totally blameless on both counts. As you say if thats Young I dread to think what the fall out would be.
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Post by Junior on Sept 22, 2014 19:23:21 GMT
Speaking of Young. The penalties he was denied vs burnley and Swansea I think were more penalties than the one given against Rafael yesterday..
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Post by baldy on Sept 22, 2014 19:33:08 GMT
Speaking of Young. The penalties he was denied vs burnley and Swansea I think were more penalties than the one given against Rafael yesterday.. Definitely. p*ss weak refereeing and both of those were game changers and probably five extra points. Man U have themselves to blame so far this season to a point but I don't think it's amiss to suggest they've been denied probably eight points by some unbelievable decision making from the referees - spectacularly topped off by the antics of Clattenburg yesterday. Clattenburg would have been national headline news in any footballing country in Europe yesterday. They're very suspicious on the continent of displays like that because it arouses suspicion of match fixing. The fact he will get off lightly in this country just hoes to show what a laughing stock PL referees are. The worst in Europe by a country mile. On the continent their remit is to referee as you see it, here they just say have a guess if you're not sure.
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Post by scotchegg on Sept 22, 2014 19:44:19 GMT
Thought that a thread about Saturdays games might spark debate without resorting to the usual rubbish but guess I was wrong.
Of course a team being 3-1 up and then losing 5-3 would spark debate, but the last few pages have gone round and round in circles.
Was it a penalty? Probably not.
Was that goal critical? It shouldn't have been at any level. You would expect teams to refocus and shut up shop let alone allowing it to become the first of 4 goals in 20 mins or so.
Have Man Utd got a fantastic attacking line up? Yes.
Have Man Utd got a shocking defence? Yes.
Really not sure what there is left to debate?
As for the other games then it was a strange weekend that few could have predicted. So much late activity in the transfer market means that many teams are still gelling. I think it'll be another month or so before things will settle down and provide a truer picture. (The same reasons apply to Oxford too!)
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Post by mooro on Sept 22, 2014 21:45:07 GMT
Interestingly, if you watch the Football League show, in the highlights of Bournemouth Watford there is an almost identical incident where an attacker takes, shall we say, a liberty with the shoulder to shoulder principle then gets in to the box only to crumble under the attentions of the chasing defender - again no foul for the first and a penalty for the second!
overall though, a very strange weekend indeed, where the four teams generally expected to compete for the 4th Cl spot all contrived to lose games they would have been expected to win - perhaps Southampton and Villa CAN hold on?
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Post by sihath on Sept 23, 2014 10:42:54 GMT
I've not seen the penalty incident, but it sounds like most are in agreement that it wasn't a penalty. But they were still leading at the time.
There's a mental frailty that seems to come to the fore when a decision goes against Man Utd, when they perhaps feel hard done by.
The sending off of Nani against Real a couple of years ago when his foot connected with the Real player's chest, they were rudderless for a while there and got punished. Same thing seems to have happened against Leicester.
That shouldn't happen to a team with aspirations of success. Mental strength is so important, and it appears that Man Utd don't quite have that at the moment. Sure they've got the flair, but when backs are against the wall you need all your players to step up and work as a team and be solid for a while.
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Post by bristoloxman on Sept 23, 2014 10:50:02 GMT
I'm quite amazed people can't see the difference in the two challenges. The first was a legitimate shoulder barge, with shoulder to shoulder action when the ball was ahead of them. The second the attacker was shielding the ball and was pushed with a forearm in the back. It's nothing to do with the physicality of the challenge. (Like a hard fair challenge vs clipping someone's feet- one is a foul the other is not). Def pen and what a game! I was impressed with Rooney's chasing back for that last goal, he was motoring!
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Post by amarillo on Sept 23, 2014 13:28:34 GMT
overall though, a very strange weekend indeed, where the four teams generally expected to compete for the 4th Cl spot all contrived to lose games they would have been expected to win - perhaps Southampton and Villa CAN hold on? makes you wonder how Southampton would have done if they had kept their best players sad that they all left to go to big clubs when they could have stayed and been part of something really special
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Post by bigfella72 on Sept 23, 2014 18:54:51 GMT
I'm quite amazed people can't see the difference in the two challenges. The first was a legitimate shoulder barge, with shoulder to shoulder action when the ball was ahead of them. The second the attacker was shielding the ball and was pushed with a forearm in the back. It's nothing to do with the physicality of the challenge. (Like a hard fair challenge vs clipping someone's feet- one is a foul the other is not). Def pen and what a game! I was impressed with Rooney's chasing back for that last goal, he was motoring! You need to go to spec savers!
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Post by bristoloxman on Sept 23, 2014 21:52:52 GMT
Are you a Man U fan?
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Post by baldy on Sept 24, 2014 11:23:05 GMT
I'm quite amazed people can't see the difference in the two challenges. The first was a legitimate shoulder barge, with shoulder to shoulder action when the ball was ahead of them. The second the attacker was shielding the ball and was pushed with a forearm in the back. It's nothing to do with the physicality of the challenge. (Like a hard fair challenge vs clipping someone's feet- one is a foul the other is not). Def pen and what a game! I was impressed with Rooney's chasing back for that last goal, he was motoring! For a short post you haven't half managed to pack a whole load of absolute crap into it. Do you actually know what a shoulder barge is ? It's when two people are running in a straight line towards the ball, their shoulders clash and the weaker of the two bounces off the other. When one, as Vardy did, runs across the line of his opponent and in doing so shoves him to the ground that is not a shoulder barge. Your 'push in the back' for the second is just laughable. A push is surely when there is, er, an actual pushing motion ? Where is the push whereby Rafael is clearly applying pressure in the motion of a push ?
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Post by andystroud on Sept 24, 2014 12:36:54 GMT
FFS. Isn't it time to move on. The challenge by Vardy wasn't a foul because the ref said so. The challenge on Vardy was a penalty because the ref said so. Manchester United then folded and lost for whatever reason.
GET OVER IT!
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