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Post by rickyotto on Sept 3, 2017 12:39:47 GMT
I wasn't there yesterday so it would be unfair for me to comment on the actions and behaviors of fans. However having read quite a few posts I have two questions:
1. How do we know who is an ultra and who is just a young fan who likes to stand behind the goal close to the ultras? People seem pretty sure that they are talking about the ultras
2. Was it an ultra that set off the smoke bomb and if so was it all of the ultras that set it off together or just one lone individual? I remember previously the ultras stating they wouldn't let any off and actually working with the club to discourage others
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 3, 2017 12:42:13 GMT
1. We've finally made the champions league and Cannice Carrol has captained us to the group stages 2. I reckon if we've been using yellow smoke bombs on the battle field that may be how Islamic State lasted so longπ 3. I can't speak for brainless morons, and I've never let one off myself, but my recollection generally is that when they have been let off the singing and atmosphere seems to raise up a few notches regardless of whether it's right or wrong . I can see both sides of this debate to be honest I don't think there is two sides of the debate while they are illegal. No different to drink driving. It used to be a criminal offense to be gay. The law is not always right. It's legal in most EU countries and we are still part of the EU so a case at the European courts would be a fascinating mess! π I take your point though
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Post by oufcyellows on Sept 3, 2017 12:52:54 GMT
Just don't think it's necessary while it's illegal and could cost the club. Atmosphere was brilliant at the manor without smoke bombs. U can't get arrested for carrying a yellow pages or streamers. Atmosphere at oufc matches was not created in 2009 and can happen without flags and smoke bombs
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Post by newyorkyellow on Sept 3, 2017 12:54:50 GMT
Have to agree with comments about the negativity from RadOx. I listened to the 2nd half (couldn't watch because I was driving) Just watched the 2nd half replay. They claimed at times we were "a shambles"! There's always gonna be periods where the home team are pressing especially at 1-1, they will be trying to win the game. The criticism I would make is we should have won it but for some poor end product in the last 15mins. (I've been impressed with Obika but he wants shooting for not passing to GVK) Radio is always more nerve racking than it really is without radio Oxford making bloody worse!!
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Post by Gary Baldi on Sept 3, 2017 13:15:05 GMT
From what I can see vis a vis the smoke bomb and some of the crowd herd mentality is an issue of respect. Respect for the 99% of supporters and the club as entity and keep us away from the smoke bomb silliness. I respect and understand the desire to be more European in terms of displays, but we are unable to do some of them because of the UK law. It's not an opinion based, it's law. The fact that some still can't get that into their presumed thick skulls says a lot about them. Feels selfish to me. Perhaps think how you'd feel if your parents were in a restaurant having a quiet meal and told by a stag do to move seats because they want to sit there and made to feel uncomfortable until they did. I very much appreciate and respect some of the efforts the Ultras make. But it's not a blank cheque to do what you want either. It should be so simple, we are all Oxford fans but for some reason it's not.
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 3, 2017 13:20:52 GMT
Just don't think it's necessary while it's illegal and could cost the club. Atmosphere was brilliant at the manor without smoke bombs. U can't get arrested for carrying a yellows pages or streamers. Atmosphere at oufc matches was not created in 2009 and can't happen without flags and smoke bombs Let me clarify ....whilst it is the law and whilst punishment hangs over us as a club they should not be letting them off. I agree. I'm just talking about the moral argument as to right and wrong.
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Post by oxfordyankee on Sept 3, 2017 13:40:17 GMT
The thing that's missing is the entire Ultras vs Others debate is empathy. Neither side seems to recognise the needs of the other. I like what the Ultras group bring, but, I've also seen some (whom I suspect aren't core members) 'walk' all over people who happen to be where they want to be. They tend to be pretty smashed and aggressive. It's a real shame because I think it sullies the name of the Ultras group itself.
The opposite is also true. Some just want to be bloody minded and cause confrontation when it would be so much easier to go to unoccupied areas. Yesterday was a prime example of that.
Unfortunately, until safe standing is introduced, it's going to be a big problem. MKD could have helped, though. We were never going to reach capacity and a sensible approach to seat numbers should have been adopted. They contributed by almost frog-marching people to their seats, which made some more protective of their allocated seat.
Cool heads and empathy are needed.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Sept 3, 2017 13:46:11 GMT
I'll always remember the smoke bomb that went off in that away stand (with the low roof) at Histon on that hot summer's day in 2009. I get mild asthma and was very ill for half an hour as were many around me. The smell and the fumes were putrid. Should have been at the Crawley in our last season in L2, I suffer from Emphysema and there were I think 5 smoke bombs let of and that did affect me don't think anyone was ejected and tbh I think the closest anything came with stewards was offering an Oxford fan out.
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Post by 1OUFC on Sept 3, 2017 14:33:57 GMT
I wouldn't make the arrest during the game but I'm not a police officer. With this database they have it wouldn't be hard to track the person down after the game which they've done in the past and this would lead to better atmosphere between fans and TVP rather then the big show of force. Personal opinion just thought it was over the top for a smoke bomb. So the person pulls out a second smoke bomb as we score again, a fan nearby suffers an asthma attack and dies as a result. The police will be to blame for this as they had a chance to prevent that. You will probably find the police are quite busy before the match and after the match with less to do whilst the majority of fans watch the game. If fans see people getting away with such a blatant criminal offence they will be more inclined to do the same; a perceived accepted practice. Not everyone will find out three days later Joe Bloggs received a knock on the door at 4 am and is now on a banning order. It may well be perceived a show of force but if an officer can't do their job safely without 15+ so called fans surrounding them then one must ask what the alternatives are. The problem seemed to be that he wasn't doing his job. The guy was walking away from the tvp officer, saying they were an embarrassment or something similar. This was after they both were being quite jovial towards each other. That officer could have caused a far worse situation if the group of Oxford fans that then surrounded him, as he took the guy out, were shall we say of a different persuasion.
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Post by holdsteady on Sept 3, 2017 14:49:28 GMT
1. We've finally made the champions league and Cannice Carrol has captained us to the group stages 2. I reckon if we've been using yellow smoke bombs on the battle field that may be how Islamic State lasted so longπ 3. I can't speak for brainless morons, and I've never let one off myself, but my recollection generally is that when they have been let off the singing and atmosphere seems to raise up a few notches regardless of whether it's right or wrong . I can see both sides of this debate to be honest I don't think there is two sides of the debate while they are illegal. No different to drink driving. You never smoked a joint, dropped a pill or done a line? Never worked cash in hand, gone over the speed limit or had a fight? I doubt their are many on here who have never broken the law.
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Post by CheltenhamYellow on Sept 3, 2017 14:51:22 GMT
The thing that's missing is the entire Ultras vs Others debate is empathy. Neither side seems to recognise the needs of the other. I like what the Ultras group bring, but, I've also seen some (whom I suspect aren't core members) 'walk' all over people who happen to be where they want to be. They tend to be pretty smashed and aggressive. It's a real shame because I think it sullies the name of the Ultras group itself. The opposite is also true. Some just want to be bloody minded and cause confrontation when it would be so much easier to go to unoccupied areas. Yesterday was a prime example of that. Unfortunately, until safe standing is introduced, it's going to be a big problem. MKD could have helped, though. We were never going to reach capacity and a sensible approach to seat numbers should have been adopted. They contributed by almost frog-marching people to their seats, which made some more protective of their allocated seat. Cool heads and empathy are needed. Why is wanting to sit in the seat you have paid for and been allocated "bloody minded." ?! Call them Ultras or whatever, but some of our supporters are numbskulls.
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Post by oxfordyankee on Sept 3, 2017 14:55:41 GMT
As I said, a lack of empathy.
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Post by oufcyellows on Sept 3, 2017 14:59:12 GMT
I don't think there is two sides of the debate while they are illegal. No different to drink driving. You never smoked a joint, dropped a pill or done a line? Never worked cash in hand, gone over the speed limit or had a fight? I doubt their are many on here who have never broken the law. I have and when caught have faced the punishment as that's the law. The oufc lad who was arguing with his Mrs on the phone while driving didn't intend to cause the death of someone else when he did it, but it is a possible outcome in extreme cases. Is it really worth it ? Does it add that much to the game that it's worth what? 3 years just for carrying isn't it? And if someone was to die from it, 5/10 years for manslaughter ? Just for a bit of yellow smoke at football.
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Post by makv on Sept 3, 2017 14:59:45 GMT
I'll always remember the smoke bomb that went off in that away stand (with the low roof) at Histon on that hot summer's day in 2009. I get mild asthma and was very ill for half an hour as were many around me. The smell and the fumes were putrid. tbh I think the closest anything came with stewards was offering an Oxford fan out. Awwww. That's sweet. Do you know if they ever got married?
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Post by CheltenhamYellow on Sept 3, 2017 15:03:10 GMT
As I said, a lack of empathy. Exactly. A lack of empathy.
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Post by captainox on Sept 3, 2017 15:35:56 GMT
I believe that for some of the bigger away games (and some others) the ultras run a coach.
Could it be possible that for such games, that some agreement is sorted so the ultras get given the same number of tickets as they have sold places on coach. And they are for a certain area. It would prevent the issues of x many ultras turning up together and having to bundle in an area which is often already half occupied.
Or even, come to an agreement with the club that they get say 70 tickets for every away game that has allocated seating. These tickets are grouped together and ultras then know they have a section.
Obviously the logistics and organisation of it would need some time spent on it. But I know other clubs who have agreements.
It just needs people to want to find a solution that works for all.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Sept 3, 2017 16:58:50 GMT
The only people who should be sat down at an away game are the few disabled and the elderly, at the front. I don't get why people bother going to away games if they are just going to sit and politely clap each goal. Home crowds are already sterilised beyond recognition, away crowds are the last remaining relic of real football. Or at least they should be. Why not have them put down? Useless lot. Just taking up space where others could stand and behave normally. Bloody good idea.
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Post by southstandyellow on Sept 3, 2017 18:17:51 GMT
There was plenty of space to the side of the stand and stewards weren't forcing anyone to sit in their allocated seat in this area.
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Post by ched on Sept 3, 2017 18:41:40 GMT
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 3, 2017 19:12:33 GMT
I'd say there are more favorable reviews than not there. Opposing fans are rarely complimentary. When you take into account the lack of home atmosphere to keep us motivated, and the singers being more dispersed than usual it sounded ok on ifollow
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Post by oxfordboy on Sept 3, 2017 19:29:51 GMT
We were quiet in the second half but made some good noise in the first, it's not an easy place to get an atmosphere going either due to the size
They made f*ck all noise until they scored anyway, so not sure if they're in any place to judge us
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Post by diagocostapacket on Sept 4, 2017 10:01:33 GMT
I believe that for some of the bigger away games (and some others) the ultras run a coach. Could it be possible that for such games, that some agreement is sorted so the ultras get given the same number of tickets as they have sold places on coach. And they are for a certain area. It would prevent the issues of x many ultras turning up together and having to bundle in an area which is often already half occupied. Or even, come to an agreement with the club that they get say 70 tickets for every away game that has allocated seating. These tickets are grouped together and ultras then know they have a section. Obviously the logistics and organisation of it would need some time spent on it. But I know other clubs who have agreements. It just needs people to want to find a solution that works for all. In that case can you find out when and where the next one leaves from and I will arrange one of my Ex Army friends to drop a CS gas canister through the window. See how they like it. ( only joking of course ....no need to get the Army involved ... )
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Post by leysboy on Sept 4, 2017 12:14:58 GMT
We dominated the opening half hour, then for some reason or another we took our foot off the gas. They created very little in the first half, but again in the second half we sat too deep. Inviting them on to us! Then they got there goal which was well taken. The last five mins I got the impression they were happy with a point. We had FOUR great opportunities to win the game, and we were wasteful. Obika should of put Van Kessel through, but makes himself an easy target being an ex Scum player, when he makes a mistake. Shame because I thought he had a very good game. Must beat Gillingham on Saturday, and get back to winning ways.
All in all a reasonable performance, but felt like two points dropped.
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Post by tbfuth14 on Sept 4, 2017 12:54:17 GMT
The Ultras haven't used pryotechnics of any sort since the away game in Malaga. Similar to Austria, it clearly encouraged kids to bring it to English games and do it, that's why we worked with the club/Eales to try and discourage them. It's certainly not worth the risk of a 3 year ban and criminal record, but we had 3000 fans there yesterday, we can't stop a random kid/adult we don't know from buying one online, smuggling it in and letting it off. We're not a huge group, maybe 100ish strong at very best if everyone turns up (usually less). Chances are they'd probably stand near us/singers so perfectly understandable to linch the blame on the Ultras, but pyro should only be used as part of a major display. The matches abroad are the only occasions we felt we could pull it off safely and make it worthwhile, we've always been open and honest about that. Whilst not against it I think it looks pretty powderpuff and pointless letting off one smoke bomb on an away day, that's ignoring the possible repurcutions.
Edit: We're always looking to see whats possible at away grounds, on occasions we've worked with clubs to see what we can bring in, and snuck in poles for larger stuff that would never be allowed (2 large wavers at Portsmouth away etc). Worked with the club to bring up the Ox Head surfer for Oldham away, sadly MK is a nightmare so we swerved that one and just enjoyed the day out together.
In terms of where to stand on away games, if we haven't arrived by 2:15 the whole stand is full of people sat totally spread out. Often its a case of scanning around and finding the least popular position/an area with the most space, we prefer to be slightly forward/nearer the front because it encourages those behind to sing. That's how it works abroad anyway and it's worked pretty well whilst we've been doing it, but matches like MK are always tough, wherever we stood it would have been wrong and bothered people (bare in mind the disabled section was at the back!), it was a lose lose from the start but we situated ourselves in the area with the most space and worst view. If you look at Steve Daniels' picture of Oxford fans from the home end, there were still about 1000-1500 empty seats, some with great views, so we thought it wouldn't be the worst place if a few people felt like moving away from us! Always an awkward situation.
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Post by witney50 on Sept 4, 2017 20:17:15 GMT
The Ultras haven't used pryotechnics of any sort since the away game in Malaga. Similar to Austria, it clearly encouraged kids to bring it to English games and do it, that's why we worked with the club/Eales to try and discourage them. It's certainly not worth the risk of a 3 year ban and criminal record, but we had 3000 fans there yesterday, we can't stop a random kid/adult we don't know from buying one online, smuggling it in and letting it off. We're not a huge group, maybe 100ish strong at very best if everyone turns up (usually less). Chances are they'd probably stand near us/singers so perfectly understandable to linch the blame on the Ultras, but pyro should only be used as part of a major display. The matches abroad are the only occasions we felt we could pull it off safely and make it worthwhile, we've always been open and honest about that. Whilst not against it I think it looks pretty powderpuff and pointless letting off one smoke bomb on an away day, that's ignoring the possible repurcutions. Edit: We're always looking to see whats possible at away grounds, on occasions we've worked with clubs to see what we can bring in, and snuck in poles for larger stuff that would never be allowed (2 large wavers at Portsmouth away etc). Worked with the club to bring up the Ox Head surfer for Oldham away, sadly MK is a nightmare so we swerved that one and just enjoyed the day out together. In terms of where to stand on away games, if we haven't arrived by 2:15 the whole stand is full of people sat totally spread out. Often its a case of scanning around and finding the least popular position/an area with the most space, we prefer to be slightly forward/nearer the front because it encourages those behind to sing. That's how it works abroad anyway and it's worked pretty well whilst we've been doing it, but matches like MK are always tough, wherever we stood it would have been wrong and bothered people (bare in mind the disabled section was at the back!), it was a lose lose from the start but we situated ourselves in the area with the most space and worst view. If you look at Steve Daniels' picture of Oxford fans from the home end, there were still about 1000-1500 empty seats, some with great views, so we thought it wouldn't be the worst place if a few people felt like moving away from us! Always an awkward situation. Absolutely no reason for people not to get a good view , there were plenty of seats available to move to ...these guys try to create an atmosphere at all away games not just this one...keep it up as your efforts are appreciated 30 years ago would have joined you .
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 5, 2017 12:33:26 GMT
Excellent riposte from the Ultras above.
We are very lucky to have them.πππππ
Just look at that MK support π€’π€ππ
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Post by Common Villager on Sept 5, 2017 13:13:06 GMT
My view of the situation from a few rows behind where the Ultras were situated.
When we entered the stadium at around 2:50, the Ultras had already taken their place towards the front of the stand, behind the goal (as they do at every away game). We made our way towards that general area, as we too like to get involved in the chants at times and prefer to stand at away matches.
It was evident that a few people around the Ultras were becoming a bit unsettled, as they were hoping to remain seated, but if they did they would have their views blocked by those standing in front. The vast majority of these people calmly decided to move on to an area where they would be able to sit and enjoy the match in a way that they preferred. Given than there was an abundance of empty seats, this was the sensible and obvious thing to do.
At around 2:57 a fan arrived and made his way to where the Ultras were standing and started gesturing for them to move, waving his ticket angrily. They refused and the fan started to get more and more angry, and started swearing quite agressively (there was probably a few words thrown back in his direction by the Ultras too, mind). He proceeded to speak with the stewards, who then seemed intent on watching the group like hawks. It was all a bit unnecessary.
The smoke bomb was let off as the players came out of the tunnel. It came from the section that the Ultras were stood, but I'm in no position to say if it was let off my a member of their group (I don't know any of them personally). It was a bloody stupid move as - as I mentioned above - the stewards were already desperate to take action against the group. You could also tell a few of the players were looking over and were a bit confused about the situation. It's quite embarrassing for them to have to see that type of thing before the match has even kicked off.
After that tensions between the fans died down, but not between the Ultras and the stewards / police.
In my opinion the fan that arrived just before kick off and attempted to shift the 50 or so 'Ultras' was a little naive. Perhaps he doesn't normally attend away matches, but to expect the group to move just before kick off was laughable. I'm not sure of the details of what was said, but it does seem that the Ultras could have been a bit more understanding and measured in explaining that they weren't going to move.
I agree with others that this situation will not be resolved until safe standing is introduced. There is a very clear difference in the interpretation of standard protocol at away matches. Personally, I always take the stand/sit where you can find space approach. That's how I've understood it to work ever since I started going to away matches. It is well known that away matches are different to home matches in that it is generally only the more hardcore supporters that attend, and most fans try to create more of an atmosphere than at home matches. Therefore, given the difficulties of getting tickets close together, people are bound to bundle in together, especially behind the goal - that's never going to change.
As I noted above, most fans that you could see weren't going to be happy sitting behind the Ultras section moved to an area that they around be able to sit and watch the game without fear of flailing arms or an obstructed view. Fair play to them.
Those that weren't happy to do so are unfortunately going to be disappointed more often than not when they attend away matches at all seater stadiums. That's just the way it is.
Empathy and common sense is certainly needed on both sides. And smoke bombs should be left at home.
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