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Post by arthur on Mar 24, 2016 22:41:54 GMT
I think this is to good an opportunity to miss, the sooner we get SD, DE & CM around the same table the better it will be for OUFC. Oxvox could do some massive good here if they could facilitate. I posted this when Darryl Eales first took over, shame it didn't happen, we wouldn't still be talking about it now!!
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Post by charliesghost on Mar 24, 2016 23:28:38 GMT
That is all well and good, but why don't you try and offer an answer to what seems to be a sensible question from Charlie, namely can we ever get to the stage that we are self financing as a football club. Do you not agree that this is a worry (if we do seem to make losses of £1M per annum and Darryl will eventually run out of money/ the desire to lose such money year after year)? Sarcastic bickering on what is a pretty important subject to the club doesn't really help? All Charlie is doing is undermining both the club and Oxvox for his own agenda. HP Charlie stated on a post that he would desist from posting on here. desist: Stop doing something; cease or abstain: each pledged to desist from acts of sabotage. Both the club and the newly elected members of Oxvox do not need his constant essays on owning the stadium etc at such an important time in the clubs recent history. I'm sure that if CM has the investment DE would welcome his financial input, if not then but out. Erm, I know that when you reach a certain age that basic functions start to go awry, but best not come on a forum when that happens. I said that I WILL desist from posting on this forum once GBT is MD as it would not be fair to second guess the decisions and actions of a close friend. As last time I looked GBT was still Managing Partner of Dragon, and I left him with a cheery wave in our office at 6 pm this evening, that moment has not been reached. Still, when have such boring matters as facts ever concerned you in your bizarre and multi-faceted vendettas. StewDon's post this evening must be very discombobulating to you. What to do? Pursue the vendetta against someone you once sucked up to but have since vilified, or praise an OUFC fan willing to put money into the club. Something that you would never do, even to the extent of bothering to attend games. Oh dear.
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Post by uptheus on Mar 25, 2016 7:29:04 GMT
All Charlie is doing is undermining both the club and Oxvox for his own agenda. HP Charlie stated on a post that he would desist from posting on here. desist: Stop doing something; cease or abstain: each pledged to desist from acts of sabotage. Both the club and the newly elected members of Oxvox do not need his constant essays on owning the stadium etc at such an important time in the clubs recent history. I'm sure that if CM has the investment DE would welcome his financial input, if not then but out. Erm, I know that when you reach a certain age that basic functions start to go awry, but best not come on a forum when that happens. I said that I WILL desist from posting on this forum once GBT is MD as it would not be fair to second guess the decisions and actions of a close friend. As last time I looked GBT was still Managing Partner of Dragon, and I left him with a cheery wave in our office at 6 pm this evening, that moment has not been reached. Still, when have such boring matters as facts ever concerned you in your bizarre and multi-faceted vendettas. StewDon's post this evening must be very discombobulating to you. What to do? Pursue the vendetta against someone you once sucked up to but have since vilified, or praise an OUFC fan willing to put money into the club. Something that you would never do, even to the extent of bothering to attend games. Oh dear. Charlie, please don't waste your time listening or even responding to this person, it's not worth it. Please continue posting on this forum though.
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Post by charliesghost on Mar 25, 2016 8:13:11 GMT
Feasible if you're happy with losing large sums in ad infinitum, and not being able to pay our way even in the Championship. Let's be quite clear: the financing package for Water Eaton wasn't some fresh new thinking. It was an off-the-peg package pursued by numerous other clubs. The kicker being that in meetings with Kassam he indicated that in a partnership deal the club would benefit from the re-development of the WHOLE Kassam site (other clubs are usually selling their old ground). The sum we put in there was very conservative, as it was Firoz' opening offer! The stadium naming rights deal we had three firm offers on the table for the sum suggested, on a 5 year deal. The grants available were verified thru Supporters Direct. So the only variable was bank financing - tho the council indicated that they would consider doing a low interest loan thru them, given certain conditions. Anyhow, onto the lazy thinker's option. Whoops. Sorry. I mean that wobbly phrase "staying at the Kassam". What do we mean by this? Continuing to rent the Kassam? If we do so, then we cannot be sustainable in League 1 or League 2. The £750,000 we drop in rent and lost hospitality revenues, set against revenues which are max £3.5 million (or maybe £4 million in League 1) is simply too big a burden to bear. It means that even in a successful year we lose £1 million. In bad times, it will be much more than this. Critically, though, it could be about to get worse than that. Because the dream has always been that if we win thru to the Championship we would be able to afford to buy the existing stadium, increase its size and have a sustainable Championship club with a 20,000 capacity. I have never seen the detailed thinking around this. Buying the stadium would cost £13 million, and upgrading it to a 20k capacity would cost another £7 million, minimum, in reality more than that. Anyhow, it'd be a £20 million spend, with no help from Firoz, no stadium naming rights deal (or massively reduced), no new build grants. So the whole flabby thinking was, to my mind, unrealistic without someone like the Donald family getting very generous. However, that scenario was reasonably palatable, compared to what I fear we are about to see. Which is that Uncle Firoz decides to press ahead with his development plans, builds a basic 'fourth stand' of 2,500 capacity, bring us to just over 14k. In return, we have to sign up to a new lease, and see housing built around the ground in such a way that makes it near impossible to develop in the future. That, in turn, would make us unsustainable in the lower leagues, as we would still be paying rent etc, and unsustainable in the Championship, as - with that league's average attendance being over 17k AND us paying rent - we would, just like in the old days at the Manor, be the league's poor relations. Even if we filled the stadium every week - and attendances don't work that way - we would be almost at the bottom of the attendances table. It may be that, to get this deal off the ground, Firoz offers some sort of short-term rent reduction to get OUFC to support it. It'd be a cheap way to get his planning thru without opposition. Sign up to that, at the expense of medium-term strategic planning, and - as with under Merry - the club deserves everything it gets. The moment that Firoz wants further development is the last little bit of leverage that OUFC will ever have. We, or the club, throws it away at our own long-term peril. I'm sure that OxVox will want to make a pronouncement on all this at some point in the (very) near future. If EVER there was an issue where a true Supporters Trust should be taking a long-term view then this is it. You might think a plan involving the Kassam stadium is lazy thinking Charlie. I doubt Darryl Eales does, which is why he's taking it seriously by all accounts. And for someone who's constantly reminding everyone here about how dangerous the indebted position of this club is, you're remarkably cavalier about taking the club much much deeper into debt (and proper debt this time, not the soft debt that worries you so much). You've said the plan to move to Water Eaton relies on a club that's already millions of pounds in debt being able to: a) Raise ~24 million in cash, which even with your own optimistic calculations is going to involve £7m+ more of debt. b) Negotiate the planning process in what must be one of the most hostile places for big developments in the country. I think given the history of this club it's pretty understandable why many are skeptical about a utopian plan that will lead the club into a bright new future (oh and will cost a bit up front but never mind about that). Call that lazy thinking if you want - I think others might call it realism. You've created this doom-laden scenario of us being the poor relations of the Championship. Well as you acknowledge, we've been in that situation before. And we've been taken on a journey involving a new stadium before. People are naturally going to be wary of the next journey we're promised, and trying to browbeat them as short-termers is fairly dispiriting stuff from someone who claims to have the best interest of the fans at heart. Fair questions in amongst the bile. The plan was not for the club to take on debt. It was for a new Trust to be created, with the supporters trust, the YCT, the Council and the Club controlling that trust between them 'for the good of Oxford United and Oxfordshire sport'. The council had indicated that they would grant 'enabling planning' alongside the stadium - retail, bars and restaurants, and a small supermarket - the rent from which would service the loan. Just as Firoz got at Minchery Farm. But better rents because next to a railway station, so much more natural flow of punters outside of matchdays. I should add that even the proposed debt was a cautious entry, as a generous donor had indicated that they would likely put up that spare equity. Onto the Kassam. Look, I'm not one-eyed on this. If we owned the ground, the surrounds and sufficient car-parking, and hadn't had to ruin ourselves to get there then it wouldn't be the worst. We could build a massive new West Stand, like Pompey's, which would take our capacity to 17k. And then, if we reached the Championship, we could knock down the North Stand and build another two tier affair, looped into the West Stand like Plymouth's, which would take us to the necessary 20k. Given FK's asking price, and the lack of grants and naming rights, it is a far more expensive way of doing it than a new stadium, but I guess it's gradualised spend and the place is already there. The key, though, is not getting tied into a Firoz development that makes it impossible to develop the stadium further in future. And as for the multi-storey car-parks he was proposing, they are a total non-starter. They would cost 10 million to build and have proven nightmarishly inefficient for the odd sports stadia that have tried them in the past. So there are major, major car-parking issues too, especially as the development of the fourth stand would lead to the loss of 400 more parking spaces, let alone the development of the overflow car park. But, as I say, if the parking can be sorted, the access sorted, and we can own the current stadium site un-encumbered then even if it is - to my mind - second-best it would still be pretty damn good.
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Post by charliesghost on Mar 25, 2016 8:20:05 GMT
You might think a plan involving the Kassam stadium is lazy thinking Charlie. I doubt Darryl Eales does, which is why he's taking it seriously by all accounts. And for someone who's constantly reminding everyone here about how dangerous the indebted position of this club is, you're remarkably cavalier about taking the club much much deeper into debt (and proper debt this time, not the soft debt that worries you so much). You've said the plan to move to Water Eaton relies on a club that's already millions of pounds in debt being able to: a) Raise ~24 million in cash, which even with your own optimistic calculations is going to involve £7m+ more of debt. b) Negotiate the planning process in what must be one of the most hostile places for big developments in the country. I think given the history of this club it's pretty understandable why many are skeptical about a utopian plan that will lead the club into a bright new future (oh and will cost a bit up front but never mind about that). Call that lazy thinking if you want - I think others might call it realism. You've created this doom-laden scenario of us being the poor relations of the Championship. Well as you acknowledge, we've been in that situation before. And we've been taken on a journey involving a new stadium before. People are naturally going to be wary of the next journey we're promised, and trying to browbeat them as short-termers is fairly dispiriting stuff from someone who claims to have the best interest of the fans at heart. Fair questions in amongst the bile. The plan was not for the club to take on debt. It was for a new Trust to be created, with the supporters trust, the YCT, the Council and the Club controlling that trust between them 'for the good of Oxford United and Oxfordshire sport'. The council had indicated that they would grant 'enabling planning' alongside the stadium - retail, bars and restaurants, and a small supermarket - the rent from which would service the loan. Just as Firoz got at Minchery Farm. But better rents because next to a railway station, so much more natural flow of punters outside of matchdays. I should add that even the proposed debt was a cautious entry, as a generous donor had indicated that they would likely put up that spare equity. Onto the Kassam. Look, I'm not one-eyed on this. If we owned the ground, the surrounds and sufficient car-parking, and hadn't had to ruin ourselves to get there then it wouldn't be the worst. We could build a massive new West Stand, like Pompey's, which would take our capacity to 17k. And then, if we reached the Championship, we could knock down the North Stand and build another two tier affair, looped into the West Stand like Plymouth's, which would take us to the necessary 20k. Given FK's asking price, and the lack of grants and naming rights, it is a far more expensive way of doing it than a new stadium, but I guess it's gradualised spend and the place is already there. The key, though, is not getting tied into a Firoz development that makes it impossible to develop the stadium further in future. And as for the multi-storey car-parks he was proposing, they are a total non-starter. They would cost 10 million to build and have proven nightmarishly inefficient for the odd sports stadia that have tried them in the past. So there are major, major car-parking issues too, especially as the development of the fourth stand would lead to the loss of 400 more parking spaces, let alone the development of the overflow car park. But, as I say, if the parking can be sorted, the access sorted, and we can own the current stadium site un-encumbered then even if it is - to my mind - second-best it would still be pretty damn good. Oh - and one other thing. If you reckon that Oxfordshire right now is 'the most hostile planning environment' in the country you are seriously mistaken. Don't where you live right now, or what you do, but coming from a very extensive north Oxfordshire farming family who have their mitts in 101 development schemes I can assure that if the phrase 'free for all' is possibly not quite fair, it is - ahem - a fantastic time to be applying for schemes which add to the county's housing stock. Furthermore, when we broached this subject with councillors before, there was very little concern. They did all the parking and traffic flow work for rush hour at Oxford Parkway. Plus, you remember what water Eaton actually was before? An area of outstanding natural beauty? Erm, no actually. It was a designated industrial site with a giant, disused grain silo. I find it hilarious when posters on here talk about planning taking decades. Chiltern Railways were doing something far, far, far more controversial, noisy, disruptive etc. And they got permission in unbelievably swift order, given the circs. Facts, facts, facts. So uncomfortable when someone has a prejudiced view.
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Post by oufcyellows on Mar 25, 2016 8:56:55 GMT
I do not know the correct asking price but there is definitely the bones of a deal there that may work for all. There you go Oxvox - what do you reckon Eric Read/Simon Bradbury - I voted for you, make it happen please !!! It does feel like the time is now with the heightened interest with Wembley etc and all the parties just needing pulling together So Eric is on the oxvox committee. Good to see. I never knew! Sly old fox did I vote for you as well ?
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Post by scotchegg on Mar 25, 2016 9:09:25 GMT
I'm too busy annoying those with questionable views on terrorism to get into any meaningful discussion on here, however I have just the one point to make.
Whether out future lies at the Kassam or Water Eton (or elsewhere), and which ever view you think is the most appropriate - can we all discuss the positives of our position rather than making cheap comments at the expense of others views?
Charlie and others have clearly worked hard to make WE feasible, and is rightly shouting about the benefits. But he does let himself down occasionally with comments about the 'lazy thinkers' etc. Old is just a bit strange and brings little to the table.
We all want Oxford to succeed. Our current model doesn't appear to give us long term success, but maybe there is more we can do to make the Kassam work. WE (or any other new site) gives us an opportunity to start again without the mismanagement that has burdened us for so long. There are still many obstacles for that project to get going but the support of SD can not be underestimated and maybe a collective investment of minds and money will make things happen.
Either way, let's keep it in the spirit of Easter and look at new beginnings - wherever they are.
All aboard the positive bus!!!
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Post by scotters on Mar 25, 2016 10:48:11 GMT
Fair questions in amongst the bile. Gracious Charlie, if you're counting my comments as 'bile' I dread to think of the palpitations you must have if you ever get within earshot of the East Stand... I'd be interested to know what you think of Stewart Donald's latest bout of 'lazy thinking' on here - noticed you weren't as quick to jump in and slap it down as anyone else who's mentioned the Kassam.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 11:40:33 GMT
4) The remaining should be raised by 5000 fans offering £1000 per person - £5 million. I will start and offer to cover 1000 fans minimum - If we could then find another 10 fans to cover £200,000 each that would leave us actually needing 2000 to cover £1000 and we would be there. I hear Nick Merry has offered himself as Treasurer, any takers?
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Post by scoob on Mar 25, 2016 23:53:17 GMT
I saw Darryl yesterday - how much money has he got to run our/his club? Didn't ask him and none of my business but he is generously giving what he feels comfortable with for the sole benefit of OUFC. I would take the view though that he is doing a great job and spending huge sums in trying to make OUFC successful, inclusive and available to everyone. He was extremely passionate and talking long term plans - can't really expand obviously but i was vey enthused but he is thinking long term and willing to spend his hard earned money on OUFC. We can't ask anymore than that and he may not get everything right (almost though!) but he and Cheryl (who is a great credit to him) are working extremely hard. There is always stuff to improve but I don't think we can ask anymore of him than what he is giving. Onto the Ground We know this is difficult but vital. It is something that I feel we as fans should try and help and support Darryl with. I do not know about the real likelyhood of moving but if Firoz Kassam is willing to pay us to leave to maximise his potential revenue on the site - which makes perfect sense to me - then seriously exploring other options is sensible and would not take long and I am sure this would be considered. However if we can't move or indeed feel it more beneficial to stay then I would approach the purchase on the basis that Firoz Kassam has regularly pointed out over the last 18 months that he is the custodian of the club and wants to safeguard the club - on that basis an offer from the club and fans has to be what he wants as fan involvement secures this. The deal I would try and get if we stayed therefore is as follows:- 1) Agree a purchase price of £10 million - don't know its true value but guessing. Sure Darryl values at less and Kassam values at more. 2) The council give Firoz the spare land by the school and value it at £5 million to develop we take on the loan from the council for this at favourable terms. Really should be a £3 million gift to the club in return for community projects and £2 million repaid at say 3.5% 3) Firoz can then develop the site including this extra land where he can make more money allowing him the return he wants and enabling him to let the club have the stadium at the £10 million along with the corners and fourth stand land so the club can develop post sale. 4) The remaining should be raised by 5000 fans offering £1000 per person - £5 million. I will start and offer to cover 1000 fans minimum - If we could then find another 10 fans to cover £200,000 each that would leave us actually needing 2000 to cover £1000 and we would be there. Darryl would then be free to use his funds to strengthen the team rather than have it sucked into the land. The club could own 50% (the money put forward by the council and the fans the other 50% which they had raised). If there was a shortfall or Darryl wanted control he could maybe put in some to make up the difference - or persuade the more significant investors to do more ( I am sure they would!!!). Therefore the council get the houses they need and a community club. Firoz makes his money and helps his reputation and the club gets the ground with minimal financial exposure and is not stuck with huge mortgage payments and we then kick on. I do not know the correct asking price but there is definitely the bones of a deal there that may work for all. There you go Oxvox - what do you reckon Eric Read/Simon Bradbury - I voted for you, make it happen please !!! It does feel like the time is now with the heightened interest with Wembley etc and all the parties just needing pulling together I hope that Simon will remember someone putting some very similar ideas/figures to the rest of the Oxvox committee a few years ago so I hope this post is taken very seriously!
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Post by holdsteady on Mar 26, 2016 8:30:38 GMT
I am willing to put a grand in on the condition that Sercombe is banned from penalties.
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Post by Mark Sennett on Mar 26, 2016 13:11:36 GMT
Nothing surprising in mr Kassam's comments. As I've said many a time his is key issue facing our club. Clearly Kassam has plans and will push ahead with or without club OxVox or fan support but I know he's very interested in a partnership with the club to see if everyone can benefit both parties.
This seems to me to be a marker in the sand from Kassam he's being upfront with what he wants and it's a last chance for us to approach him to discuss a joint partnership or he will clearly push on himself. So it's vital for me that the club pushes ahead with looking at all and any options to acquire a ground ASAP.
I agree with many points raised by Charlie and Stewart as the club can only be sustainable and progressive in league 1 or 2 if an advantageous stadia deal can be struck and/or of DE keeps kindly investing huge sums of money into the club and as he's said before he doesn't have a bottomless pit and neither should he have to!
Obviously I have strong views on the viability of water eaton having worked on it for so long but the point of that project, as was shared with DE was not just to say water eaton is a good option but to look at the viability of the Kassam. That's something I'm looking forward to OxVox continuing as Charlie raised excellent points about how limiting current facilities are with a £9k+ crowd let alone if we had bigger crowds or had a bigger capacity or reduced parking. The road infrastructure is a huge draw back too if we want to attract championship worthy crowds. It's key for me that should we do any deal on the Kassam that it's for ownership not just a reduced rent and that any partnership with firoka doesn't limit too badly our ability to expand capacity and facilities should we continue to our great profession on the pitch.
The first question for me is are the current facilities compatible for championship, can they be improved affordably to be so, can ground be purchased at a fair price, how much is the cost of reparations and expansion, can transport infrastructure be improved, would any deal allow us to expand suitably to entertain £20k+ crowds in championship which is what's needed to be competitive. If these can't be met then it's then you look at the external options which in my view are te most appealing for Kassam and OUFC
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Post by Gary Baldi on Mar 26, 2016 21:39:38 GMT
My biggest concern with the Kassam is the work needed to get it up to standard. It has not been finished since it was built, and I can't but be concerned about how many corners will need to be uncut if OUFC buy it. I'd certainly want Kassam to either foot the bill, or reduce it from any price.
If a 4th stand is built, another basic stand is not what is needed.
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Post by charliesghost on Mar 28, 2016 20:18:01 GMT
Nothing surprising in mr Kassam's comments. As I've said many a time his is key issue facing our club. Clearly Kassam has plans and will push ahead with or without club OxVox or fan support but I know he's very interested in a partnership with the club to see if everyone can benefit both parties. This seems to me to be a marker in the sand from Kassam he's being upfront with what he wants and it's a last chance for us to approach him to discuss a joint partnership or he will clearly push on himself. So it's vital for me that the club pushes ahead with looking at all and any options to acquire a ground ASAP. I agree with many points raised by Charlie and Stewart as the club can only be sustainable and progressive in league 1 or 2 if an advantageous stadia deal can be struck and/or of DE keeps kindly investing huge sums of money into the club and as he's said before he doesn't have a bottomless pit and neither should he have to! Obviously I have strong views on the viability of water eaton having worked on it for so long but the point of that project, as was shared with DE was not just to say water eaton is a good option but to look at the viability of the Kassam. That's something I'm looking forward to OxVox continuing as Charlie raised excellent points about how limiting current facilities are with a £9k+ crowd let alone if we had bigger crowds or had a bigger capacity or reduced parking. The road infrastructure is a huge draw back too if we want to attract championship worthy crowds. It's key for me that should we do any deal on the Kassam that it's for ownership not just a reduced rent and that any partnership with firoka doesn't limit too badly our ability to expand capacity and facilities should we continue to our great profession on the pitch. The first question for me is are the current facilities compatible for championship, can they be improved affordably to be so, can ground be purchased at a fair price, how much is the cost of reparations and expansion, can transport infrastructure be improved, would any deal allow us to expand suitably to entertain £20k+ crowds in championship which is what's needed to be competitive. If these can't be met then it's then you look at the external options which in my view are te most appealing for Kassam and OUFC very well put. I remember that when I started doing work on this, it was on the assumption that the kassam, in some way shape or form, was the best answer. It was only when I worked through the various options of 'staying at the kassam' that I realised that it simply is not as simple as that. Such many and varied minds as Kelvin Thomas, Ian Lenagan, me (if you can call that a mind) and, for the last 18 months Darryl Eales have all started off from the proposition that there must be a 'deal to be done' with Firoz for us to stay at the Kassam. So why is it that eight long years on no progress has been made and Firoz is pressing ahead with plans without the club's involvement? The answer is because the metrics are all wrong. every option is a bad one either for firoz or for the club. Which is when we started to explore alternative options - it was a way of changing the metrics, of aligning ourselves with firoz, rather than seeking to 'do a deal' that could never be done without someone losing out big style. and since that entity (losing out) was never going to be firoz, it was going to have to be the club or those associated with it. That is why I describe blithe declarations about it being "probably best to stay at the kassam' as lazy thinking. because it presupposes that someone is going to either fund the club unsustainably to carry on with the current status quo or is going to beggar themselves to pay £20 million for a fairly basic 16,000 seater stadium with un-ideal transport and traffic flow situations and no new build grants or stadium naming rights deals. Easy (and lazy) for a fan to think that those are the best options. But try actually doing that deal. Or try actually funding the status quo. Darned difficult!
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Post by Barts on Mar 28, 2016 20:24:36 GMT
Nothing surprising in mr Kassam's comments. As I've said many a time his is key issue facing our club. Clearly Kassam has plans and will push ahead with or without club OxVox or fan support but I know he's very interested in a partnership with the club to see if everyone can benefit both parties. This seems to me to be a marker in the sand from Kassam he's being upfront with what he wants and it's a last chance for us to approach him to discuss a joint partnership or he will clearly push on himself. So it's vital for me that the club pushes ahead with looking at all and any options to acquire a ground ASAP. I agree with many points raised by Charlie and Stewart as the club can only be sustainable and progressive in league 1 or 2 if an advantageous stadia deal can be struck and/or of DE keeps kindly investing huge sums of money into the club and as he's said before he doesn't have a bottomless pit and neither should he have to! Obviously I have strong views on the viability of water eaton having worked on it for so long but the point of that project, as was shared with DE was not just to say water eaton is a good option but to look at the viability of the Kassam. That's something I'm looking forward to OxVox continuing as Charlie raised excellent points about how limiting current facilities are with a £9k+ crowd let alone if we had bigger crowds or had a bigger capacity or reduced parking. The road infrastructure is a huge draw back too if we want to attract championship worthy crowds. It's key for me that should we do any deal on the Kassam that it's for ownership not just a reduced rent and that any partnership with firoka doesn't limit too badly our ability to expand capacity and facilities should we continue to our great profession on the pitch. The first question for me is are the current facilities compatible for championship, can they be improved affordably to be so, can ground be purchased at a fair price, how much is the cost of reparations and expansion, can transport infrastructure be improved, would any deal allow us to expand suitably to entertain £20k+ crowds in championship which is what's needed to be competitive. If these can't be met then it's then you look at the external options which in my view are te most appealing for Kassam and OUFC very well put. I remember that when I started doing work on this, it was on the assumption that the kassam, in some way shape or form, was the best answer. It was only when I worked through the various options of 'staying at the kassam' that I realised that it simply is not as simple as that. Such many and varied minds as Kelvin Thomas, Ian Lenagan, me (if you can call that a mind) and, for the last 18 months Darryl Eales have all started off from the proposition that there must be a 'deal to be done' with Firoz for us to stay at the Kassam. So why is it that eight long years on no progress has been made and Firoz is pressing ahead with plans without the club's involvement? The answer is because the metrics are all wrong. every option is a bad one either for firoz or for the club. Which is when we started to explore alternative options - it was a way of changing the metrics, of aligning ourselves with firoz, rather than seeking to 'do a deal' that could never be done without someone losing out big style. and since that entity (losing out) was never going to be firoz, it was going to have to be the club or those associated with it. That is why I describe blithe declarations about it being "probably best to stay at the kassam' as lazy thinking. because it presupposes that someone is going to either fund the club unsustainably to carry on with the current status quo or is going to beggar themselves to pay £20 million for a fairly basic 16,000 seater stadium with un-ideal transport and traffic flow situations and no new build grants or stadium naming rights deals. Easy (and lazy) for a fan to think that those are the best options. But try actually doing that deal. Or try actually funding the status quo. Darned difficult! Charlie, I'm sure you saw Stewarts idea of doing a deal with Firoz to buy the Kassam, but would it be possible to fund a new stadium in the same way?
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Post by charliesghost on Mar 29, 2016 9:46:08 GMT
very well put. I remember that when I started doing work on this, it was on the assumption that the kassam, in some way shape or form, was the best answer. It was only when I worked through the various options of 'staying at the kassam' that I realised that it simply is not as simple as that. Such many and varied minds as Kelvin Thomas, Ian Lenagan, me (if you can call that a mind) and, for the last 18 months Darryl Eales have all started off from the proposition that there must be a 'deal to be done' with Firoz for us to stay at the Kassam. So why is it that eight long years on no progress has been made and Firoz is pressing ahead with plans without the club's involvement? The answer is because the metrics are all wrong. every option is a bad one either for firoz or for the club. Which is when we started to explore alternative options - it was a way of changing the metrics, of aligning ourselves with firoz, rather than seeking to 'do a deal' that could never be done without someone losing out big style. and since that entity (losing out) was never going to be firoz, it was going to have to be the club or those associated with it. That is why I describe blithe declarations about it being "probably best to stay at the kassam' as lazy thinking. because it presupposes that someone is going to either fund the club unsustainably to carry on with the current status quo or is going to beggar themselves to pay £20 million for a fairly basic 16,000 seater stadium with un-ideal transport and traffic flow situations and no new build grants or stadium naming rights deals. Easy (and lazy) for a fan to think that those are the best options. But try actually doing that deal. Or try actually funding the status quo. Darned difficult! Charlie, I'm sure you saw Stewarts idea of doing a deal with Firoz to buy the Kassam, but would it be possible to fund a new stadium in the same way? Of course. And the requirement would be much lower. We put in an assumption of a supporters bond at about £2 million, from memory, sourced thru OxVox. In return, the trust would be one of the controlling entities of the new stadium body. On of the ideas was to separate the club from the stadium, to stop any future owner borrowing against the asset, but in a trust structure "for the benefit of Oxford United and Oxfordshire sport".
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Post by uptheus on Mar 29, 2016 10:50:47 GMT
Nothing surprising in mr Kassam's comments. As I've said many a time his is key issue facing our club. Clearly Kassam has plans and will push ahead with or without club OxVox or fan support but I know he's very interested in a partnership with the club to see if everyone can benefit both parties. This seems to me to be a marker in the sand from Kassam he's being upfront with what he wants and it's a last chance for us to approach him to discuss a joint partnership or he will clearly push on himself. So it's vital for me that the club pushes ahead with looking at all and any options to acquire a ground ASAP. I agree with many points raised by Charlie and Stewart as the club can only be sustainable and progressive in league 1 or 2 if an advantageous stadia deal can be struck and/or of DE keeps kindly investing huge sums of money into the club and as he's said before he doesn't have a bottomless pit and neither should he have to! Obviously I have strong views on the viability of water eaton having worked on it for so long but the point of that project, as was shared with DE was not just to say water eaton is a good option but to look at the viability of the Kassam. That's something I'm looking forward to OxVox continuing as Charlie raised excellent points about how limiting current facilities are with a £9k+ crowd let alone if we had bigger crowds or had a bigger capacity or reduced parking. The road infrastructure is a huge draw back too if we want to attract championship worthy crowds. It's key for me that should we do any deal on the Kassam that it's for ownership not just a reduced rent and that any partnership with firoka doesn't limit too badly our ability to expand capacity and facilities should we continue to our great profession on the pitch. The first question for me is are the current facilities compatible for championship, can they be improved affordably to be so, can ground be purchased at a fair price, how much is the cost of reparations and expansion, can transport infrastructure be improved, would any deal allow us to expand suitably to entertain £20k+ crowds in championship which is what's needed to be competitive. If these can't be met then it's then you look at the external options which in my view are te most appealing for Kassam and OUFC very well put. I remember that when I started doing work on this, it was on the assumption that the kassam, in some way shape or form, was the best answer. It was only when I worked through the various options of 'staying at the kassam' that I realised that it simply is not as simple as that. Such many and varied minds as Kelvin Thomas, Ian Lenagan, me (if you can call that a mind) and, for the last 18 months Darryl Eales have all started off from the proposition that there must be a 'deal to be done' with Firoz for us to stay at the Kassam. So why is it that eight long years on no progress has been made and Firoz is pressing ahead with plans without the club's involvement? The answer is because the metrics are all wrong. every option is a bad one either for firoz or for the club. Which is when we started to explore alternative options - it was a way of changing the metrics, of aligning ourselves with firoz, rather than seeking to 'do a deal' that could never be done without someone losing out big style. and since that entity (losing out) was never going to be firoz, it was going to have to be the club or those associated with it. That is why I describe blithe declarations about it being "probably best to stay at the kassam' as lazy thinking. because it presupposes that someone is going to either fund the club unsustainably to carry on with the current status quo or is going to beggar themselves to pay £20 million for a fairly basic 16,000 seater stadium with un-ideal transport and traffic flow situations and no new build grants or stadium naming rights deals. Easy (and lazy) for a fan to think that those are the best options. But try actually doing that deal. Or try actually funding the status quo. Darned difficult! Charlie, regarding the Kassam, will the proposed building of 2/3000 houses in that area mean a revised look at transportation for this area. e.g. could the railway line be used there in time as well?
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Post by charliesghost on Mar 29, 2016 13:52:14 GMT
very well put. I remember that when I started doing work on this, it was on the assumption that the kassam, in some way shape or form, was the best answer. It was only when I worked through the various options of 'staying at the kassam' that I realised that it simply is not as simple as that. Such many and varied minds as Kelvin Thomas, Ian Lenagan, me (if you can call that a mind) and, for the last 18 months Darryl Eales have all started off from the proposition that there must be a 'deal to be done' with Firoz for us to stay at the Kassam. So why is it that eight long years on no progress has been made and Firoz is pressing ahead with plans without the club's involvement? The answer is because the metrics are all wrong. every option is a bad one either for firoz or for the club. Which is when we started to explore alternative options - it was a way of changing the metrics, of aligning ourselves with firoz, rather than seeking to 'do a deal' that could never be done without someone losing out big style. and since that entity (losing out) was never going to be firoz, it was going to have to be the club or those associated with it. That is why I describe blithe declarations about it being "probably best to stay at the kassam' as lazy thinking. because it presupposes that someone is going to either fund the club unsustainably to carry on with the current status quo or is going to beggar themselves to pay £20 million for a fairly basic 16,000 seater stadium with un-ideal transport and traffic flow situations and no new build grants or stadium naming rights deals. Easy (and lazy) for a fan to think that those are the best options. But try actually doing that deal. Or try actually funding the status quo. Darned difficult! Charlie, regarding the Kassam, will the proposed building of 2/3000 houses in that area mean a revised look at transportation for this area. e.g. could the railway line be used there in time as well? heavens know. Possibly. Probably? Would make a great difference if so. doesn't solve the funding issue, nor the potential capacity problem (for us to be sustainable in the championship we need a 20k stadium), but it would certainly make it far more attractive and accessible for the county as a whole if you could get there easily by public transport. If we could then secure a big new stand of 6k, and the potential to fill in at least two corners, that would then solve another problem. And if the City Council offered to put their money where their mouth is, and part fund their obsession with us staying inside the ring-road (even tho Grenoble Road is further from city centre than water eaton) then it'd start to look like a deal. An awful of 'ifs', given that this supposedly the 'easy' way of solving the issue, but all worth investigating.
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Post by Yellow River on Mar 29, 2016 14:52:46 GMT
I've just been down to the new Oxford Parkway railway station at Water Eaton to get our train tickets for next Sunday. It's the first time I've been there since the old derelict concrete monstrosities have been pulled down and the new station put in place and I have to say I was really impressed with the new station, layout, parking, and general feel of the place. I'm no expert on the logistics of planning, building and politics that go into building a new stadium, but my gut feeling looking around the area is that it would be an excellent site. It just feels right, a Feng Shui moment if you like. . The location has a lot going for it, a modern railway station, good parking facilities, easy access to A34 - M40 and beyond. As well as a stadium a fantastic facility could be put in place at Water Eaton that the Club, City and the whole of Oxfordshire could use and be proud of.
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Post by iambungle on Mar 29, 2016 15:06:13 GMT
4) The remaining should be raised by 5000 fans offering £1000 per person - £5 million. I will start and offer to cover 1000 fans minimum - If we could then find another 10 fans to cover £200,000 each that would leave us actually needing 2000 to cover £1000 and we would be there. I hear Nick Merry has offered himself as Treasurer, any takers? Or looking at it another way, if each of the 32,500 Oxford supporters at Wembley on Sunday could stump up a little over £61.50 each we would have £2m. PS - really good to actually read a few posts where People versus Charlie isn't a sub-plot.
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Post by eighteen93 on Mar 29, 2016 15:19:56 GMT
I've just been down to the new Oxford Parkway railway station at Water Eaton to get our train tickets for next Sunday. It's the first time I've been there since the old derelict concrete monstrosities have been pulled down and the new station put in place and I have to say I was really impressed with the new station, layout, parking, and general feel of the place. I'm no expert on the logistics of planning, building and politics that go into building a new stadium, but my gut feeling looking around the area is that it would be an excellent site. It just feels right, a Feng Shui moment if you like. . The location has a lot going for it, a modern railway station, good parking facilities, easy access to A34 - M40 and beyond. As well as a stadium a fantastic facility could be put in place at Water Eaton that the Club, City and the whole of Oxfordshire could use and be proud of. I had the same "Eureka" style moment when I looked at the site in the summer of 2014. It is almost perfect.
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Post by uptheus on Mar 29, 2016 15:44:32 GMT
Charlie, regarding the Kassam, will the proposed building of 2/3000 houses in that area mean a revised look at transportation for this area. e.g. could the railway line be used there in time as well? heavens know. Possibly. Probably? Would make a great difference if so. doesn't solve the funding issue, nor the potential capacity problem (for us to be sustainable in the championship we need a 20k stadium), but it would certainly make it far more attractive and accessible for the county as a whole if you could get there easily by public transport. If we could then secure a big new stand of 6k, and the potential to fill in at least two corners, that would then solve another problem. And if the City Council offered to put their money where their mouth is, and part fund their obsession with us staying inside the ring-road (even tho Grenoble Road is further from city centre than water eaton) then it'd start to look like a deal. An awful of 'ifs', given that this supposedly the 'easy' way of solving the issue, but all worth investigating. Cheers Charlie.
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Post by SteMerritt on Mar 29, 2016 16:12:14 GMT
I hear Nick Merry has offered himself as Treasurer, any takers? Or looking at it another way, if each of the 32,500 Oxford supporters at Wembley on Sunday could stump up a little over £61.50 each we would have £2m. PS - really good to actually read a few posts where People versus Charlie isn't a sub-plot. Not sure my daughter could afford £61.50 out of her pocket money, would take her 4 months or so to save that... I'll ask her to chip in though
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Post by cass63 on Mar 31, 2016 10:54:54 GMT
Or raise her pocket money tight arse. It is for a good cause.
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Post by carefreeoufc on Apr 4, 2016 7:34:15 GMT
I've just been down to the new Oxford Parkway railway station at Water Eaton to get our train tickets for next Sunday. It's the first time I've been there since the old derelict concrete monstrosities have been pulled down and the new station put in place and I have to say I was really impressed with the new station, layout, parking, and general feel of the place. I'm no expert on the logistics of planning, building and politics that go into building a new stadium, but my gut feeling looking around the area is that it would be an excellent site. It just feels right, a Feng Shui moment if you like. . The location has a lot going for it, a modern railway station, good parking facilities, easy access to A34 - M40 and beyond. As well as a stadium a fantastic facility could be put in place at Water Eaton that the Club, City and the whole of Oxfordshire could use and be proud of. I had the same "Eureka" style moment when I looked at the site in the summer of 2014. It is almost perfect. The almost bit is what concerns me, We already have fans who complain about getting to the current ground using public transport. Getting to Water Eaton from south of Oxford wouldn't be particularly easy in my opinion. For example from Abingdon at the moment it is just two buses and takes around 45 mins to an hour. The other issue is there is nothing there IE pubs etc. Again we have fans who complain about the sterile atmosphere of the Quad Bar or whatever its called now and Bowlplex. As far as I am aware there are no pubs near the site which would mean people would be restricted to drinking in whatever club run facility was available. At least with the current ground there are some options (whether they appeal to people is another thing).
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Post by horse on Apr 4, 2016 8:55:03 GMT
Firoz was at the game yesterday and mixing with Oxford fans by the Bobby Moore statue.
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Post by outsidethebox on Apr 4, 2016 9:08:00 GMT
Firoz was at the game yesterday and mixing with Oxford fans by the Bobby Moore statue. So we took him on a journey then!
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Post by Colin B on Apr 4, 2016 12:44:33 GMT
Firoz was at the game yesterday and mixing with Oxford fans by the Bobby Moore statue. Surprised no one punched him.
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Post by oufcyellows on Apr 4, 2016 14:13:24 GMT
Firoz was at the game yesterday and mixing with Oxford fans by the Bobby Moore statue. Surprised no one punched him. U would break ur hand, that's a f*cking hard statue
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Post by MJB on Apr 4, 2016 14:51:48 GMT
Surprised no one punched him. U would break ur hand, that's a f*cking hard statue Every time I see the Bobby Moore statue, I always forget how big the guy was. No wonder footballs were heavier back in the 60s - the man was virtually a giant.
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