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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 12:52:48 GMT
His stats at club level suggest otherwise. His international record is decent. World Cup not so great. 1 goal and 1 assist in two games. If that's a problem player then England have very few worries moving forward. What's your thoughts on Gerrard? On Johnson? On Baines? Rooney's record in the PL for Man Utd is great. Good player at a great team, plenty of chances so he shines. International qualifying record is also very good. At World Cups and in Euro's (with the exception of 2004 as an 18 year old when he was at Everton) he's been poor, very poor. 1 goal and 1 assist in 2 games is true. But that's a bit like saying Arsenal win a trophy a year. You forget the 10 years that went before it. Gerrard? Thanks and goodbye. Johnson. Not good enough. Baines? Let's hope Luke Shaw lives up to the hype. Do they really care though. I mean REALLY? They'll go back to the clubs and their millionaire lifestyle. Next season they might get grief from rival's fans, but so what? Their own fans will praise them, and some will probably sing "Argentina" or some other country's name because they don't really care about England either. B Leagues, League 3, whatever you call it won't make a blind bit of difference. Club football means more to them than representing their country. Your dig at Manchester Utd ( your mate baldy ain't here btw ) has a reason. Look at how the media and English fans treated Beckham after 98. They made him a scape goat. Even leading to booing of other Manchester Utd players in future England games. Is that fair, is that right? That's why the majority of Manchester Utd fans couldn't give a toss about England.
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Post by sihath on Jun 20, 2014 13:54:06 GMT
Rooney's record in the PL for Man Utd is great. Good player at a great team, plenty of chances so he shines. International qualifying record is also very good. At World Cups and in Euro's (with the exception of 2004 as an 18 year old when he was at Everton) he's been poor, very poor. 1 goal and 1 assist in 2 games is true. But that's a bit like saying Arsenal win a trophy a year. You forget the 10 years that went before it. Gerrard? Thanks and goodbye. Johnson. Not good enough. Baines? Let's hope Luke Shaw lives up to the hype. Do they really care though. I mean REALLY? They'll go back to the clubs and their millionaire lifestyle. Next season they might get grief from rival's fans, but so what? Their own fans will praise them, and some will probably sing "Argentina" or some other country's name because they don't really care about England either. B Leagues, League 3, whatever you call it won't make a blind bit of difference. Club football means more to them than representing their country. Your dig at Manchester Utd ( your mate baldy ain't here btw ) has a reason. Look at how the media and English fans treated Beckham after 98. They made him a scape goat. Even leading to booing of other Manchester Utd players in future England games. Is that fair, is that right? That's why the majority of Manchester Utd fans couldn't give a toss about England. The media made him a scapegoat (but then they're mainly idiots who have an agenda), but most England fans forgave Beckham. Probably because he's one of the few players of recent years how appears to care about England. What about the rest of the points I've raised?
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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 14:03:42 GMT
After the World Cup did they forgive him? No. He was targeted throughout that season by fans when Manchester Utd came to town.
That's why the Manchester Utd fans backed him and sang Argentina In response.
Same kind of thing happened also happened to Ronaldo. Remember his first game back in this country after wink gate ? Still, play for the biggest club in England and that'll always happen. .
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Post by sihath on Jun 20, 2014 14:15:18 GMT
After the World Cup did they forgive him? No. He was targeted throughout that season by fans when Manchester Utd came to town. That's why the Manchester Utd fans backed him and sang Argentina In response. Same kind of thing happened also happened to Ronaldo. Remember his first game back in this country after wink gate ? Still, play for the biggest club in England and that'll always happen. . I didn't go to Ronaldo's first game, but to be honest I couldn't give a stuff about him. He never played for a club or country that I support. Beckham was forgiven, perhaps not by some neanderthals but then you'll never get 100% backing for anyone. But after 1998 he became England's most influential player, he thrived on the pressure and delivered (as much as any England player did) at major tournaments. Rooney never has (2004 excepted) and he doesn't look as though he's particularly bothered. That's not a dig at him because he's a Man Utd player (although I don't expect you can see beyond a negative comment about a Man Utd player) just that as the supposed top dog status, he's not delivered for England at tournaments.
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Post by nige01ox on Jun 20, 2014 14:21:23 GMT
After the World Cup did they forgive him? No. He was targeted throughout that season by fans when Manchester Utd came to town. That's why the Manchester Utd fans backed him and sang Argentina In response. Same kind of thing happened also happened to Ronaldo. Remember his first game back in this country after wink gate ? Still, play for the biggest club in England and that'll always happen. . Becks got himself stupidly & needlessly sent off. Ronaldo acted so as to ensure an England player got sent off. Did they get abuse because they were Man U players, or because they acted like c*nts?
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Post by Yellowbrains on Jun 20, 2014 15:14:05 GMT
If we'd lost that game in a similar manner to the Italy game I could have accepted that the squad is just too young and looked forward to the future. But what concerned me last night is that all of the same old problems that have characterised recent weak England teams were just evident as ever and I fear that this is another crop of players who will always be destined to fail on the international stage.
Also, just to wade in on the Rooney debate, the reason he gets more stick than the others is because people expect more from him than the other players and they hold him to a higher standard than other players. He's one of the best-paid players in the world, has won countless honours at club level, but you'd never know it from his England performances. People expect a high-profile players to step up and take charge for their country at big tournaments like this (just look at Suarez last night) and Rooney hasn't done this for the last decade.
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Post by bicesteryellow on Jun 20, 2014 16:37:23 GMT
People are having a go at Rooney purely because he's Rooney. He gives his all in an England shirt, and so far has one goal and one assist in two defeats, which is pretty good going. He missed one or two, but the one that Muslera saved was not an easy chance, giving that he was facing the corner flag and on his weaker foot. He maybe could have put it near post but he had a split second decision, went far, didn't get his foot around it enough and had it saved. It was by no means straight at the goalkeeper. And, people of the forum, stop comparing him to Suárez. Suárez is a #9, Rooney is a #10. Their roles are completely different. Seriously think you need to look at it again (although there was an even better angle last night that isn't shown in this video): www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25285176He's taken a (very good) first touch which leaves him bearing down on goal, and has the entire right half of the goal to aim for - but instead had blasted it near post where the goalie is stationed. Even with his weaker foot, at this level of the game you've simply got to take chances like that when they come along. But the problem isn't necessarily with Rooney - he's a good player, had a decent enough game last night and is undoubtedly one of England's Best XI. The problem is with the fan and media expectation that's built him up into one of the best players in the world. He's a very good player, but he's being talked about in the same bracket as Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez, Bale and the like. He doesn't belong in that company - he's a second or third tier talent. But the English media monster can't cope with that and has to build him up into something he's not. If it wasn't for the fact that he gets paid about 300 grand a week, and has been a bit of a w*nker off the pitch, I'd genuinely be feeling sorry for him right now. I still disagree. He's facing the corner flag on his weak foot trying to put the ball in the opposite corner.
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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 17:40:09 GMT
I don't get the he's paid ££££ amounts so he should do better argument. It's a cheap shot. On that basis though, how much is Gerrard on? How about Hart? Did they justify their alleged salary?
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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 17:42:32 GMT
If we'd lost that game in a similar manner to the Italy game I could have accepted that the squad is just too young and looked forward to the future. But what concerned me last night is that all of the same old problems that have characterised recent weak England teams were just evident as ever and I fear that this is another crop of players who will always be destined to fail on the international stage. Also, just to wade in on the Rooney debate, the reason he gets more stick than the others is because people expect more from him than the other players and they hold him to a higher standard than other players. He's one of the best-paid players in the world, has won countless honours at club level, but you'd never know it from his England performances. People expect a high-profile players to step up and take charge for their country at big tournaments like this (just look at Suarez last night) and Rooney hasn't done this for the last decade. But he's performed this tournament. and the last. 1 in 2 in each with an assist chucked in to boot. Only England's right back has managed an assist thus far. Out simply, if he had played for Liverpool ( like Gerrard ) he'd have escaped the all this bad press. Rooney has done his job this World Cup, others haven't. Simple really.
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Post by Yellowbrains on Jun 20, 2014 18:04:43 GMT
If we'd lost that game in a similar manner to the Italy game I could have accepted that the squad is just too young and looked forward to the future. But what concerned me last night is that all of the same old problems that have characterised recent weak England teams were just evident as ever and I fear that this is another crop of players who will always be destined to fail on the international stage. Also, just to wade in on the Rooney debate, the reason he gets more stick than the others is because people expect more from him than the other players and they hold him to a higher standard than other players. He's one of the best-paid players in the world, has won countless honours at club level, but you'd never know it from his England performances. People expect a high-profile players to step up and take charge for their country at big tournaments like this (just look at Suarez last night) and Rooney hasn't done this for the last decade. But he's performed this tournament. and the last. 1 in 2 in each with an assist chucked in to boot. Only England's right back has managed an assist thus far. Out simply, if he had played for Liverpool ( like Gerrard ) he'd have escaped the all this bad press. Rooney has done his job this World Cup, others haven't. Simple really. I don't think he was the worst performer in the team, but can you really say he's lived up to his billing as a world-class player? Of course he hasn't. If he had, England would still be in the World Cup. Rightly or wrongly, Wayne Rooney is the poster boy for this England team and the failings of the team are going to be projected onto him.
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Post by tonyw on Jun 20, 2014 18:28:49 GMT
But he's performed this tournament. and the last. 1 in 2 in each with an assist chucked in to boot. Only England's right back has managed an assist thus far. Out simply, if he had played for Liverpool ( like Gerrard ) he'd have escaped the all this bad press. Rooney has done his job this World Cup, others haven't. Simple really. If you're comparing him to Gerrard, Stirling or Welbeck - yes, he's done his job. If you're comparing him to Messi, Neymar, Robben or Van Persie - no, he's been poor. (or Alexei Sanchez, Thomas Muller or James Rodriguez for that matter) For a solid international player, he's been good. For a World Class Number 10, he's been bad. Depends which way you want to view him. I think the former is probably fairer.....but if that's the case, should he really be raking in all that Nike cash alongside players who are genuine World beaters?
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Post by unification on Jun 20, 2014 18:54:40 GMT
Because of the greed of the premiership not many good young England talent are going to get a chance. We have a lot of oversea players but how many English are playing oversea? Its even deeper than that. Our Local academies select the strongest quickest and most athletic youngsters, however come the age of the 21 they are then not the quickest, strongest and most athletic. I've also heard that coaching in our academies is dire compared to our rivals abroad. For the top 50 clubs in the world who produce professional players there we only 3 English clubs. In 2008, Uefa data showed that England had just 2,769 Uefa (Pro, A or B) licenced coaches compared to 34,970 in Germany, 29,240 in Italy and 23,995 in Spain. ' news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8785895.stmSunday Morning football for kids is terrible for developing talent and creating gifted footballers. The coaches who manage these teams are not taught how to develop their players and this inevitably ends up with kick and run and route one style football being used as it is the most successful in kids football. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24660579It may seem like it all a bit far fetched but I really do believe this is the problem. You've hit the nail on the head there, NJY. The saddest thing is that this comes up after every tournament exit. I remember the same points being made in 2004 after England's exit to Portugal so not much has changed, with maybe the exception of England getting worse! They failed to qualify for the Euros in 2008, had a dire 2010 (a last 16 covered up what was one of the most depressing WC's for England fans), had a too-par Euros in 2012, but that's gone backwards this year. Those points you've raised just don't get addressed. Thing is, you can dissect the games from an England perspective all you want. It's boring hearing about the defence's limitations and the tedious debate about Rooney, but why not switch it? See what the opposition did right to beat England, what are they doing abroad to improve their national teams and take those elements to improve English football. I remember reading an article some years ago about the German FA's reaction to Germany's pathetic exit at Euro 2000 where they were bundled out all too easily. A cohesive agreement between the Bundesliga, DFB and German FA decided to put so much more effort into coaching (including taking some English elements!) youngsters and building a side for the future. It took some time to gel (I still regard their run to the 2002 World Cup final as a fluke - even England would have made the final given that group and set of knock out matches) with another early exit in 2004, but the German national team are now back amongst the world's elite. A article that sums it up is here: archive.indianexpress.com/eurocup/news/coach-loew-spills-secrets-of-german-soccer-success/967812/0/index.htmlThe problem is that the FA don't serve football in this country - they serve the Premier League. The 'B-team' initiative isn't to improve the national team, it's to keep the high-and-mighty propped up. The FA make an easy target, but they really are culpable for letting the PL behemoth continue to dominate the game. If they really did care about the national side, monumental, ground-shaking changes are required. Are they likely to make them? Are they hell?! It would upset poor ol' Peter Scudamore.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 19:52:45 GMT
Its even deeper than that. Our Local academies select the strongest quickest and most athletic youngsters, however come the age of the 21 they are then not the quickest, strongest and most athletic. I've also heard that coaching in our academies is dire compared to our rivals abroad. For the top 50 clubs in the world who produce professional players there we only 3 English clubs. In 2008, Uefa data showed that England had just 2,769 Uefa (Pro, A or B) licenced coaches compared to 34,970 in Germany, 29,240 in Italy and 23,995 in Spain. ' news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8785895.stmSunday Morning football for kids is terrible for developing talent and creating gifted footballers. The coaches who manage these teams are not taught how to develop their players and this inevitably ends up with kick and run and route one style football being used as it is the most successful in kids football. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24660579It may seem like it all a bit far fetched but I really do believe this is the problem. You've hit the nail on the head there, NJY. The saddest thing is that this comes up after every tournament exit. I remember the same points being made in 2004 after England's exit to Portugal so not much has changed, with maybe the exception of England getting worse! They failed to qualify for the Euros in 2008, had a dire 2010 (a last 16 covered up what was one of the most depressing WC's for England fans), had a too-par Euros in 2012, but that's gone backwards this year. Those points you've raised just don't get addressed. Thing is, you can dissect the games from an England perspective all you want. It's boring hearing about the defence's limitations and the tedious debate about Rooney, but why not switch it? See what the opposition did right to beat England, what are they doing abroad to improve their national teams and take those elements to improve English football. I remember reading an article some years ago about the German FA's reaction to Germany's pathetic exit at Euro 2000 where they were bundled out all too easily. A cohesive agreement between the Bundesliga, DFB and German FA decided to put so much more effort into coaching (including taking some English elements!) youngsters and building a side for the future. It took some time to gel (I still regard their run to the 2002 World Cup final as a fluke - even England would have made the final given that group and set of knock out matches) with another early exit in 2004, but the German national team are now back amongst the world's elite. A article that sums it up is here: archive.indianexpress.com/eurocup/news/coach-loew-spills-secrets-of-german-soccer-success/967812/0/index.htmlThe problem is that the FA don't serve football in this country - they serve the Premier League. The 'B-team' initiative isn't to improve the national team, it's to keep the high-and-mighty propped up. The FA make an easy target, but they really are culpable for letting the PL behemoth continue to dominate the game. If they really did care about the national side, monumental, ground-shaking changes are required. Are they likely to make them? Are they hell?! It would upset poor ol' Peter Scudamore. Your point on the German revolution is very interesting. 14 years ago when the German FA implemented their plans over two thirds of the current German 23 man squad would have been of the age of 11 or under, clearly good quality youth coaching is having a impact on their performance. Gary Neville a year or two ago said England will win a major trophy in the next 30yrs. If this is to happen we must act now as it takes 15yrs for any changes to filter through!
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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 19:58:52 GMT
But he's performed this tournament. and the last. 1 in 2 in each with an assist chucked in to boot. Only England's right back has managed an assist thus far. Out simply, if he had played for Liverpool ( like Gerrard ) he'd have escaped the all this bad press. Rooney has done his job this World Cup, others haven't. Simple really. I don't think he was the worst performer in the team, but can you really say he's lived up to his billing as a world-class player? Of course he hasn't. If he had, England would still be in the World Cup. Rightly or wrongly, Wayne Rooney is the poster boy for this England team and the failings of the team are going to be projected onto him. According to the vast majority on here he's not a world class player so that argument is flawed. Why should the failings of this team be placed on his shoulders? If other ayers had contributed ( goals and assists ) we would be in the World Cup still.
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Post by stokeu on Jun 20, 2014 20:02:40 GMT
the most fatuous argument ever. His contribution was simply not enough.
He wasn't alone in under performing, but (just) 2 contributions in 189 minutes shouldn't absolve him of culpability
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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 20:04:07 GMT
True ^ however others need to shoulder the blame before Rooney.
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Post by joey on Jun 20, 2014 20:10:36 GMT
I don't think he was the worst performer in the team, but can you really say he's lived up to his billing as a world-class player? Of course he hasn't. If he had, England would still be in the World Cup. Rightly or wrongly, Wayne Rooney is the poster boy for this England team and the failings of the team are going to be projected onto him. According to the vast majority on here he's not a world class player so that argument is flawed. Why should the failings of this team be placed on his shoulders? If other ayers had contributed ( goals and assists ) we would be in the World Cup still. How many chances did he create? He only has an assist because Sturridge managed to score. Gerrard would have one from an equally good cross if it hadn't landed at Rooney. Baines would have one if his run and cross had landed at Sturridge's feet instead of Rooney's. Fact is, Rooney should have a hell of a lot more than a goal. A half fit Suarez had two good chances and scored them both, Rooney had three better chances and only put one away. If he could hit a cows arse, or if he chances had fallen to someone who could, maybe we would still be in it.
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Post by joey on Jun 20, 2014 20:12:20 GMT
Just so junior doesn't try and change the subject, Gerrard was also useless. Doesn't affect the game at all, bar an assist for Suarez' winner.
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Post by Junior on Jun 20, 2014 20:14:12 GMT
Missed tackle in centre midfield led to their first goal. That'll be Gerrard again.
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Post by stokeu on Jun 20, 2014 20:17:04 GMT
Gerrard to retire. Johnson won't get picked again. Baines succeded by Shaw. Jagielka into international obscurity.
Some of the fallout
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Post by joey on Jun 20, 2014 21:25:00 GMT
Missed tackle in centre midfield led to their first goal. That'll be Gerrard again.[/quoe] Yep, he was crap. But hitting the post from a yard out was Rooney. Hitting he keeper from 7 yards out with all the goal to aim at was Rooney. Dragging a shot miles wide from about 12 yards against Italy was Rooney. Just because Gerrard (and a whole host of others) were poor doesn't excuse Rooney. Scoring a tap in and putting a good cross in doesn't mean he's had a good tournament.
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Post by Yellowbrains on Jun 20, 2014 21:27:42 GMT
I don't think he was the worst performer in the team, but can you really say he's lived up to his billing as a world-class player? Of course he hasn't. If he had, England would still be in the World Cup. Rightly or wrongly, Wayne Rooney is the poster boy for this England team and the failings of the team are going to be projected onto him. According to the vast majority on here he's not a world class player so that argument is flawed. Why should the failings of this team be placed on his shoulders? If other ayers had contributed ( goals and assists ) we would be in the World Cup still. He's not a world-class player, his performances for England have proved that. But he has the profile and earnings of one, so that's the standard he will be judged by.
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Post by sihath on Jun 21, 2014 7:47:53 GMT
I don't think he was the worst performer in the team, but can you really say he's lived up to his billing as a world-class player? Of course he hasn't. If he had, England would still be in the World Cup. Rightly or wrongly, Wayne Rooney is the poster boy for this England team and the failings of the team are going to be projected onto him. According to the vast majority on here he's not a world class player so that argument is flawed. Why should the failings of this team be placed on his shoulders? If other ayers had contributed ( goals and assists ) we would be in the World Cup still. I don't think Rooney is world class. He'd certainly not get into a team of the tournament, not even in the squad. Very good in the PL, lacking real world class quality. Sent from my T-Mobile Vivacity using Tapatalk 2
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Post by m on Jun 21, 2014 7:57:42 GMT
I don't think he was the worst performer in the team, but can you really say he's lived up to his billing as a world-class player? Of course he hasn't. If he had, England would still be in the World Cup. Rightly or wrongly, Wayne Rooney is the poster boy for this England team and the failings of the team are going to be projected onto him. According to the vast majority on here he's not a world class player so that argument is flawed. Why should the failings of this team be placed on his shoulders? If other ayers had contributed ( goals and assists ) we would be in the World Cup still. Rooney is not a World class player, can't believe that anyone seriously thinks he is. Neither is Gerrard. England don't have any World class players, hence the poorest performance in a World Cup finals for more than half a century. It's not complicated.
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Post by bigfella72 on Jun 21, 2014 10:05:19 GMT
According to the vast majority on here he's not a world class player so that argument is flawed. Why should the failings of this team be placed on his shoulders? If other ayers had contributed ( goals and assists ) we would be in the World Cup still. Rooney is not a World class player, can't believe that anyone seriously thinks he is. Neither is Gerrard. England don't have any World class players, hence the poorest performance in a World Cup finals for more than half a century. It's not complicated. Wouldn't say poorest performance, poorest results, yes! Played well against Italy but defended badly. Played alright against Uruguay, got beat by Suarez and poor defending/errors in crucial areas! ( two shots on target) Anybody with any clue new our weak area was the defence coming into this World Cup and I don't think Hart has played particularly well either. I'm not happy were out but can see the positive signs and with such an easy qualifying group for the Euro's ( on paper) now is the time to start more of the youngsters that hopefully have gained experience from this World Cup. Out - Johnson,Jagielka,Baines,Gerrard,Milner,etc etc In -Jones,Walker,Stones,Shaw,Flanagan,Wilshere,Barkley,The Ox, Etc etc
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Post by m on Jun 22, 2014 17:10:34 GMT
Rooney is not a World class player, can't believe that anyone seriously thinks he is. Neither is Gerrard. England don't have any World class players, hence the poorest performance in a World Cup finals for more than half a century. It's not complicated. Wouldn't say poorest performance, poorest results, yes! Played well against Italy but defended badly. Played alright against Uruguay, got beat by Suarez and poor defending/errors in crucial areas! ( two shots on target) Anybody with any clue new our weak area was the defence coming into this World Cup and I don't think Hart has played particularly well either. I'm not happy were out but can see the positive signs and with such an easy qualifying group for the Euro's ( on paper) now is the time to start more of the youngsters that hopefully have gained experience from this World Cup. Out - Johnson,Jagielka,Baines,Gerrard,Milner,etc etc In -Jones,Walker,Stones,Shaw,Flanagan,Wilshere,Barkley,The Ox, Etc etc I meant that the history books will show the worst performance in 50+ years. I also think we played okay at times, this is moot however. I think it's simplistic to lay the blame on the defence too. We had as many chances as Italy and more than Uruguay. I do agree re blooding the youngsters whilst trying to qualify for the Euro's and I think Hodgson is probably brave enough to do it.
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Post by stevegilbert on Jun 22, 2014 17:40:18 GMT
For the Euro's in 2016 Lampard and Gerard will of retired and I would leave Johnson and Rooney at home unless Rooney can cope with being a squad player. As has been said, he is good but not world class. This team is too focused around Rooney when it should be focused on the pace we have available.
This tournament has seen England play the best football in years. Our down fall was having a weak defence and playing too defensively in the 2nd game. If you take Henderson out and play Barkley I think we would of seen a different result.
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