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Post by saddletramp on Feb 7, 2011 19:31:45 GMT
Catholic schools accept catholics of any race but not religion, so if i said you can come to my school if you are white,black,brown,yellow,iranian,afghan,chinese but not catholic i would be allowed to build my school? dont think so.
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Post by moomooland on Feb 7, 2011 19:33:57 GMT
I think we are drifting away from the point here,the EDL have a right to express there views,right or wrong.If we deny them that right then we are leaning towards facism which the far left accuse the said EDL of being. The far left have had it easy for to long,when maggie brought in the poll tax the far left organised riots all over the country. when labour brought in council tax,(poll tax plus 50%) where were the protesters, when labour wasted 500 billion and the tories tried to balance the books the far left are rioting on the streets. I know we have different political views but when i left school under a labour government the basic rate of income tax was 33.3%. If the current government raised the basic rate to 33.3% there would be anarchy on the streets, where were the anarchists in 1976/ Probably at a Sex Pistols concert.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 19:35:08 GMT
To many questions for me to answer here. Ive only said what i believe. I am not against muslims, but i am against the 7th century barbaric form that some of the koran teaches. Many muslims i know are against this, and to target them is unfair. But as one muslim once said to me, there is no one to stand up for us on a world stage. That i feel is a problem. Christians have commited acts in the past which i dont agree with. But thats not now. That is not a threat to me or my childs future. The 7th century barbaric form of islam that many follow is, and thats what im speaking out against. I respect peoples opinion on here. I love England, i love that we have free speech and people are entitled to their opinions. I do not condone racism. If you havent already, please have a look at this. 3 things you didnt know about islam. Very interesting www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY
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Post by moomooland on Feb 7, 2011 19:36:22 GMT
Catholic schools accept catholics of any race but not religion, so if i said you can come to my school if you are white,black,brown,yellow,iranian,afghan,chinese but not catholic i would be allowed to build my school? dont think so. In fact there are many non catholics at Catholic shools in this country.
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 7, 2011 19:41:25 GMT
Well without wanting to answer for John and as someone who has mentioned before that they would never go on an EDL march due to their racist and thuggish elements, i will answer the question as it is a simple answer. If you hold something so dear so that it is part of your identity ie religion and somebody takes that thing that you hold dear and does something terrible in its name, well then you would feel inclined to speak out and say that they did not do in my name and i condemn it. If a group of Oxford fans (strangers to you) attacked a family coach of away fans. You then bumped into some away fans who were upset about it what would you do? Well, i would speak out and say i condemn it and they do not represent all Oxford fans. Like i said i am not an EDL follower and have no time for the far right elements ( i am more left than right) but if we are to challenge their views we need to address some of their more valid points. That's fair enough and I agree which is why I'm continuing debating this and I'm pleased John is too. Yes if asked I would of course condem it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to find away fans and apologies on everyones behalf. My questioning of John was do do with the difference between the extreme element of the EDL with is tolerated as far as I can tell (I've certainly never seen anyone actively come out and say they don't want these people at their marches) and the extreme element of Islam. But if the attacks happened every week and the national newspapers were printing stories such as Oxford fans are scum ect or if it was on a bigger scale ie the non muslim population are the away fans, then you would feel inclined to speak out and say no we are not. So i agree with the point that Muslims should speak out against extremism. Anyway I am on your side. The problem as i see it with the EDL is that their original message against Islamic extremism is fine and something that we would all agree with. However, they have clearly been hijacked by racists and thugs and saying we have black members ect does not prove otherwise. My main issue and you can see it from this thread is that so many people are experts in Arabic translation and in theological studies ie they are experts on the Koran and its interpretation despite it being a book that is translated from another language and one that needs to be studied in the culture it was written to understand it. People take many years to become theological experts, yet elements of the EDL and people on this thread interpret it in the way that suits their means a bit like the extremists they oppose!
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Post by luvthepink on Feb 7, 2011 19:51:22 GMT
Where does it actually say that? I want you to quote chapter and verse. Even if you can its a nothing argument. The Bible says 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' should Wiccans be organising a defence league too just because someone else's holy book says nasty things about them in it? O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 19:53:50 GMT
The EDL is not racist. It has come a long way since it started. It has supporters from nearly every religion, and they are welcomed without any racism. While ill agree that there are people to attach themselves that are recist and facist, the EDL work hard to get rid of those elements. Anyone is free to attend demos, so there isnt much they can do about that. They still have a long way to go, but they are making progress
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 7, 2011 19:56:52 GMT
Where does it actually say that? I want you to quote chapter and verse. Even if you can its a nothing argument. The Bible says 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' should Wiccans be organising a defence league too just because someone else's holy book says nasty things about them in it? O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60 You see my point headlesspnub, luvthepink is an expert in theology, Arabic and the culture that surrounds it, all because he knows how to use google! I bet he is a lecturer at Oxford University with such expertise!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 19:56:53 GMT
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54 Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3 Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60 So what you're saying is: It doesn't. In fact it says something very similar to the bible. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Feb 7, 2011 20:14:10 GMT
I think generally you're a pretty decent poster so don't think I'm having a pop. We disagree; and I think this is much more complex than you allow. I am not against muslims, but i am against the 7th century barbaric form that some of the koran teaches. Many muslims i know are against this, and to target them is unfair. But as one muslim once said to me, there is no one to stand up for us on a world stage. I'm really confused by that last sentence. Do you mean this -> Having lived in the Middle East I am convinced that the vast majority of muslims' main aspiration is to a kind of '80s American life - house, car, 2 kids, Roberts DAB Radio, holidays in the sun. There is no-one standing up for them, that's true. That class has been betrayed by the strongmen the west has put in place to control their countries, by the nature of capitalism that leaves them with huge unemployment and by the polarisation of opinion that has been sponsored partly as a result of the above and by the western powers originally to counter USSR influence - I'm speaking of the ISI in Pakistan and the US-sponsored groups that became Al Qaida and their cohorts. It's true that vast middle class has no voice. Are they what you're talking about? How do you think they get a voice? Christians have commited acts in the past which i dont agree with. But thats not now. That is not a threat to me or my childs future. I disagree. At the time of the 9-11 atrocity Al Qaida was declining and desperate. It had been brought into being by the direct efforts of the US and Pakistani security forces. The joint US and UK war of terror (which you may remember they described initially as a crusade): the illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan have revivified Al Qaida and Islamic extremism, the blind sponsorship of Israel's ethnic cleansing are all threats to you and your child's future. Now.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 20:15:12 GMT
I want to make it clear, with the amount of research ive done, i think there are things im pretty educated about. But that doesnt mean on occasions i cant be wrong.
What i dont get though, is that when someone puts some quotes from the Koran on here, people are more interested in other things, rather than the proof of the bad side of islam
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 7, 2011 20:18:06 GMT
I want to make it clear, with the amount of research ive done, i think there are things im pretty educated about. But that doesnt mean on occasions i cant be wrong. What i dont get though, is that when someone puts some quotes from the Koran on here, people are more interested in other things, rather than the proof of the bad side of islam See below as before. My main issue and you can see it from this thread is that so many people are experts in Arabic translation and in theological studies ie they are experts on the Koran and its interpretation despite it being a book that is translated from another language and one that needs to be studied in the culture it was written to understand it. People take many years to become theological experts, yet elements of the EDL and people on this thread interpret it in the way that suits their means a bit like the extremists they oppose!
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Post by Paul Cannell on Feb 7, 2011 20:19:05 GMT
In my case, because they're out of context and because the Koran is a fairy-tale just likek the Bible.
I'm sure I could go on google and quote why the people of god should smite the Philistines and slaughter women. children and livestock.
Because it's not proof of anything.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 20:19:39 GMT
Paul, this has tired me out, to much thinking and debate for one day. Im off now, but ill try and give a reply tomorrow. I appreciate that you respect me as a poster, and you allowing me to put my point across. We may disagree, but that doesnt mean people need to argue like others on here. I respect yours and other right to have an opinion dofferent to mine. Im not always right, but i do try to be. Thats me done for today people, happy debating :-)
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 7, 2011 20:21:43 GMT
I think generally you're a pretty decent poster so don't think I'm having a pop. We disagree; and I think this is much more complex than you allow. I am not against muslims, but i am against the 7th century barbaric form that some of the koran teaches. Many muslims i know are against this, and to target them is unfair. But as one muslim once said to me, there is no one to stand up for us on a world stage. I'm really confused by that last sentence. Do you mean this -> Having lived in the Middle East I am convinced that the vast majority of muslims' main aspiration is to a kind of '80s American life - house, car, 2 kids, Roberts DAB Radio, holidays in the sun. There is no-one standing up for them, that's true. That class has been betrayed by the strongmen the west has put in place to control their countries, by the nature of capitalism that leaves them with huge unemployment and by the polarisation of opinion that has been sponsored partly as a result of the above and by the western powers originally to counter USSR influence - I'm speaking of the ISI in Pakistan and the US-sponsored groups that became Al Qaida and their cohorts. It's true that vast middle class has no voice. Are they what you're talking about? How do you think they get a voice? Christians have commited acts in the past which i dont agree with. But thats not now. That is not a threat to me or my childs future. I disagree. At the time of the 9-11 atrocity Al Qaida was declining and desperate. It had been brought into being by the direct efforts of the US and Pakistani security forces. The joint US and UK war of terror (which you may remember they described initially as a crusade): the illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan have revivified Al Qaida and Islamic extremism, the blind sponsorship of Israel's ethnic cleansing are all threats to you and your child's future. Now. I assume you are an expert on US and UK foreign policy, international law and the situation in the middle east then. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself falling off that high horse of yours
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Post by flean on Feb 7, 2011 20:40:15 GMT
I think generally you're a pretty decent poster so don't think I'm having a pop. We disagree; and I think this is much more complex than you allow. I'm really confused by that last sentence. Do you mean this -> Having lived in the Middle East I am convinced that the vast majority of muslims' main aspiration is to a kind of '80s American life - house, car, 2 kids, Roberts DAB Radio, holidays in the sun. There is no-one standing up for them, that's true. That class has been betrayed by the strongmen the west has put in place to control their countries, by the nature of capitalism that leaves them with huge unemployment and by the polarisation of opinion that has been sponsored partly as a result of the above and by the western powers originally to counter USSR influence - I'm speaking of the ISI in Pakistan and the US-sponsored groups that became Al Qaida and their cohorts. It's true that vast middle class has no voice. Are they what you're talking about? How do you think they get a voice? I disagree. At the time of the 9-11 atrocity Al Qaida was declining and desperate. It had been brought into being by the direct efforts of the US and Pakistani security forces. The joint US and UK war of terror (which you may remember they described initially as a crusade): the illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan have revivified Al Qaida and Islamic extremism, the blind sponsorship of Israel's ethnic cleansing are all threats to you and your child's future. Now. I assume you are an expert on US and UK foreign policy, international law and the situation in the middle east then. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself falling off that high horse of yours Is he on a high horse? What he said seemed pretty reasonable and factual to me... care to enlighten us?
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Post by Paul Cannell on Feb 7, 2011 20:40:34 GMT
If you have a point to make, you should make it rather than taking cheap shots and demonstrating a lack of knowledge and intelligence.
Edit: Clearly I'm responding to "Lone Gunman".
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Post by South Oxfords Border Patrol on Feb 7, 2011 20:48:13 GMT
We got one problem here,a lot of people seem to be missing the point that our country is currently under great threat...
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Post by South Oxfords Border Patrol on Feb 7, 2011 20:49:32 GMT
I have took some time reading through the thread,Like i said we all have our own opinions on all of this... The EDL Do there up most to kick anyone out who is seen the be racist in any kind of way,also they welcome any kind of race on to a march,just take a look at videos an paper clips to see that for your self,but like i said before,there are a lot of people who to scared to stand up an be heard,not just white people,but black,asian,muslim,Jewish etc etc,why,because the fear of what would come to them...
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Post by South Oxfords Border Patrol on Feb 7, 2011 21:22:05 GMT
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 7, 2011 21:22:20 GMT
If you have a point to make, you should make it rather than taking cheap shots and demonstrating a lack of knowledge and intelligence. Edit: Clearly I'm responding to "Lone Gunman". No neet to get up-tight, I meant the comment slightly in jest (I thought i'd covered my back with the winking smiley! ) I just found it somewhat perverse that you are on the one hand berating someone for a lack of knowledge of Islamic scripture, while on the other making sweeping generalisations on the subject of 'illegal wars' and Isreali 'ethnic cleansing.' I wonder how far your knowledge of such things extends and while I think you make valid points on some issues I think you are not treading carefully enough when making accusations of a lack of knowledge when you yourself are using highly emotive and politicised terms often associated with poorly informed axe-grinders.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 21:29:18 GMT
What is the relevance of this story other than a head teacher in Yorkshire is stupid? I wouldn't expect anything else from the Mail though to be honest. If you are going to try and prove a point at least get a reliant source of (unbiased) information.
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Post by moobs on Feb 7, 2011 21:29:44 GMT
The last Labour Government have alot to answer for, they created this bubble by labelling anyone who dared talk about immigration or multiculturism as racists and never allowed a proper debate on the subject.
Whether you agree or disagree, like or dislike David Cameron, you have to respect the fact he came out and spoke openly about Multiculturism and his view that it hasn't worked. He's not a coward like Bliar and Brown who call the electorate 'bigots' for daring to express geniune concerns on the matter. As predicted a Labour crony came out and tried to discredit Cameron, calling him anti islamist *Yawn*, Labour never change, still patronising the electorate with their leftie ideologies.
If the Government 10 years ago came out and condemned extremists, deported some of them and had a proper debate about multiculturism maybe it wouldn't have festered and the EDL probably wouldn't exsist. And perhaps if they didn't illegally invade their countries we wouldn't be here either
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Post by flean on Feb 7, 2011 21:38:03 GMT
Why on earth did you post that link? And I can't believe that i've been on the Daily Mail website now
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Post by flean on Feb 7, 2011 21:39:49 GMT
The last Labour Government have alot to answer for, they created this bubble by labelling anyone who dared talk about immigration or multiculturism as racists and never allowed a proper debate on the subject. Whether you agree or disagree, like or dislike David Cameron, you have to respect the fact he came out and spoke openly about Multiculturism and his view that it hasn't worked. He's not a coward like Bliar and Brown who call the electorate 'bigots' for daring to express geniune concerns on the matter. As predicted a Labour crony came out and tried to discredit Cameron, calling him anti islamist *Yawn*, Labour never change, still patronising the electorate with their leftie ideologies. If the Government 10 years ago came out and condemned extremists, deported some of them and had a proper debate about multiculturism maybe it wouldn't have festered and the EDL probably wouldn't exsist. And perhaps if they didn't illegally invade their countries we wouldn't be here either Honest question... do you think had Cameron been in power in 2001 and 2003, he wouldn't have joined Bush in the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq?
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Post by South Oxfords Border Patrol on Feb 7, 2011 21:40:12 GMT
A few questions i asked someone...
Where in the Quran or other Islamic text is Homosexuality talked about as being a sin and wrong I know Homosexuality is wrong I just want to read where is the texts Homosexuality is talked about as a sin I know the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin and wrong.
There are references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." The two main references to homosexual behavior are:
"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165
Can we just remember to, there is a difference between being anti-Muslim and anti-Islam. We are against the ideology not the people. Let's not forget that many Muslim women and children are victims of their own religion.
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 7, 2011 21:40:20 GMT
Why on earth did you post that link? And I can't believe that i've been on the Daily Mail website now I would encourage everyone to go on their website.
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 7, 2011 21:41:18 GMT
The last Labour Government have alot to answer for, they created this bubble by labelling anyone who dared talk about immigration or multiculturism as racists and never allowed a proper debate on the subject. Whether you agree or disagree, like or dislike David Cameron, you have to respect the fact he came out and spoke openly about Multiculturism and his view that it hasn't worked. He's not a coward like Bliar and Brown who call the electorate 'bigots' for daring to express geniune concerns on the matter. As predicted a Labour crony came out and tried to discredit Cameron, calling him anti islamist *Yawn*, Labour never change, still patronising the electorate with their leftie ideologies. If the Government 10 years ago came out and condemned extremists, deported some of them and had a proper debate about multiculturism maybe it wouldn't have festered and the EDL probably wouldn't exsist. And perhaps if they didn't illegally invade their countries we wouldn't be here either Honest question... do you think had Cameron been in power in 2001 and 2003, he wouldn't have joined Bush in the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq? He supported the war did he not?
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Post by moobs on Feb 7, 2011 21:41:43 GMT
The last Labour Government have alot to answer for, they created this bubble by labelling anyone who dared talk about immigration or multiculturism as racists and never allowed a proper debate on the subject. Whether you agree or disagree, like or dislike David Cameron, you have to respect the fact he came out and spoke openly about Multiculturism and his view that it hasn't worked. He's not a coward like Bliar and Brown who call the electorate 'bigots' for daring to express geniune concerns on the matter. As predicted a Labour crony came out and tried to discredit Cameron, calling him anti islamist *Yawn*, Labour never change, still patronising the electorate with their leftie ideologies. If the Government 10 years ago came out and condemned extremists, deported some of them and had a proper debate about multiculturism maybe it wouldn't have festered and the EDL probably wouldn't exsist. And perhaps if they didn't illegally invade their countries we wouldn't be here either Honest question... do you think had Cameron been in power in 2001 and 2003, he wouldn't have joined Bush in the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq? It's a moot point
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Post by South Oxfords Border Patrol on Feb 7, 2011 21:43:40 GMT
Why on earth did you post that link? And I can't believe that i've been on the Daily Mail website now Because this is what this country is coming to,makes me sad that stuff like this is wrong,they are living in OUR country an should respect our things,if we was in there country we would have to there's Simples...
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