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Post by klimt on Feb 7, 2011 11:35:50 GMT
Parts of Christianity are equally evil, and the EDL seem to be protesting islamism on the basis that Britain is a Christian nation. It paranoia. All this 'do you want sharia law in the UK' b#llock is just pure garbage. The day sharia is established in Britian I will go out and volunteer to be stoned to death. It is established in Britain. There are over 100 sharia law courts in Britain today, and the number is growing, and they have been here for a long time. In 2003, an in depth study was done into sharia law, and in the same year, the European court of human rights made it illegal. If you want to know about sharia law, and why people feel so strongly about it, then all you need to know is here englishdefenceleague.org/content.php?147-What-Is-Sharia-Law-And-How-Is-It-ConstitutedThat is probably one of the most arguably biased representations I have read. The implicit message is 'all Sharia Law' is wrong, whilst the explicit statement is; We MUST reiterate that criticism of ANY religion does not amount to racism, we live in a supposed secular democratic society where religion has been separated from the running of state, even the “perception” of offence is within the rule of law, as long as it does not incite violence or harm to others then there is no problem. Although The English Defence League knows that the points made are contentious, we are not calling for discrimination against all Muslims as many Muslims do not adhere to the justification of 7th century misogyny, child molestation, barbarity, murder and intolerance. We wish to make that point perfectly clear to all our members and the general public.There's no arguing against those elements of Sharia Law that are wrong, but lets have some intelligent representation.
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Post by foghornleghorn on Feb 7, 2011 11:54:58 GMT
Islam, is that the religion that stone women to death and chop peoples limbs off for stealing? Yes. And Christianity is that religion that burnt people at the stake and stretched them on the rack. Not currently, of course, but Christians have no right to be smug. PS I realise you're not sticking up for Christianity, I'm just making a salient point. Belgian Yellow was right on page 1, stoning is technically a part of Christian doctrine although the "cast the first stone" teaching makes it pretty much impossible to implement! It's always worth remembering that islam is a pretty new religion, Christianity has at least a 700 year head start. If you look back at the stuff we were getting up to 700 years ago then it then you can make a fairer comparison. Of course, we were pre-CNN and pre-youTube.
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Post by yellowhoods on Feb 7, 2011 12:07:07 GMT
Yes. And Christianity is that religion that burnt people at the stake and stretched them on the rack. Not currently, of course, but Christians have no right to be smug. PS I realise you're not sticking up for Christianity, I'm just making a salient point. Belgian Yellow was right on page 1, stoning is technically a part of Christian doctrine although the "cast the first stone" teaching makes it pretty much impossible to implement! It's always worth remembering that islam is a pretty new religion, Christianity has at least a 700 year head start. If you look back at the stuff we were getting up to 700 years ago then it then you can make a fairer comparison. Of course, we were pre-CNN and pre-youTube. Quite. Many of the arguments put forward by the less tolerant on this forum conveniently forget about our history. The best example of this is the idiotic notion that somehow the "white English" are the indigenous inhabitants of modern day England, and that anyone different by way of religion, nationality, culture and, dare I say, skin colour should be regarded as alien and dangerous. The truth is that this country has been invaded since the year dot (I don't need to list them) and is, effectively, a melting pot of European civilisations. It just happens that, due to geography, the invaders have always been white. Non-white incomers have been peaceful immigrants, which makes the desire of some to persecute them and their beliefs bizarre and embarrassing. Why should we fear Sharia law? Even if it became widespread it would only hold sway over Muslims and would not, in any case, replace the established law of the land.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 12:17:51 GMT
Why should we fear Sharia law? Even if it became widespread it would only hold sway over Muslims and would not, in any case, replace the established law of the land. We should fear it because allowing it in the UK is a barrier to integration and fuels racism.
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Post by Belgian Yellow on Feb 7, 2011 12:43:16 GMT
As some people have said, part of the problem with Islam comes from the fact that it has not been updated in the way Christianity was. This is really worth reading about current Turkish attempts to modernise religious teachings news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7264903.stm
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Post by yellowhoods on Feb 7, 2011 12:49:14 GMT
Why should we fear Sharia law? Even if it became widespread it would only hold sway over Muslims and would not, in any case, replace the established law of the land. We should fear it because allowing it in the UK is a barrier to integration and fuels racism. Unfortunately, you could say the same about the Muslim faith. It's different to the majority belief and is thus a barrier to integration. I don't think either notion applies. We should be celebrating our differences under the banner of "being British", not ghettoising sub-groups. People who despise others for being different, even though they're breaking no law, have the problem, not the people they despise.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 12:57:26 GMT
We should fear it because allowing it in the UK is a barrier to integration and fuels racism. Unfortunately, you could say the same about the Muslim faith. It's different to the majority belief and is thus a barrier to integration. I don't think either notion applies. We should be celebrating our differences under the banner of "being British", not ghettoising sub-groups.
People who despise others for being different, even though they're breaking no law, have the problem, not the people they despise. I dont think anyone is. We are talking about Islam in its 7th century form, the exact form of Islam which killed 52 people in our country in 2005, and 9/11, and people are dying all over the world and being tortured on a daily basis because some muslims follow Islam in its 7th century barbaric form. No one is saying muslims are the problem. There are a lot of good muslims in this country, and they should not be the target. But in this country, there is an ever increasing problem with radical Islam, and it needs to be addressed
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Post by yellowhoods on Feb 7, 2011 13:03:11 GMT
Unfortunately, you could say the same about the Muslim faith. It's different to the majority belief and is thus a barrier to integration. I don't think either notion applies. We should be celebrating our differences under the banner of "being British", not ghettoising sub-groups.
People who despise others for being different, even though they're breaking no law, have the problem, not the people they despise. I dont think anyone is. We are talking about Islam in its 7th century form, the exact form of Islam which killed 52 people in our country in 2005, and 9/11, and people are dying all over the world and being tortured on a daily basis because some muslims follow Islam in its 7th century barbaric form. No one is saying muslims are the problem. There are a lot of good muslims in this country, and they should not be the target. But in this country, there is an ever increasing problem with radical Islam, and it needs to be addressed That's all well and good John, but I heard EDL marchers being interviewed at the weekend. Not too many were making a distinction between "ordinary" and "radical" Muslims. Some seemed to think that young Muslims defending their streets against outside agitators made them valid targets. There's no doubt that the UAF groups have not helped the current situation. How do you defend against so-called "Nazis" by behaving like Nazis yourself, denying others the right of free speech? But certain groups in our society are suspicious of ALL Muslims. They're lumped together in their psyche and that is not only stupid, but dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 13:09:19 GMT
Unfortunately, you could say the same about the Muslim faith. It's different to the majority belief and is thus a barrier to integration. I don't think either notion applies. We should be celebrating our differences under the banner of "being British", not ghettoising sub-groups. People who despise others for being different, even though they're breaking no law, have the problem, not the people they despise. Agree, but islam could make greater efforts to modernise and disassociate itself from the extremist elements. Deep down beneath the racism and bigotry of the EDL a valid point is being made. No one is saying muslims are the problem. Aren't they? A large proportion of the EDL support are saying exactly this. Certain people on this forum are saying this.
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Post by yellowhoods on Feb 7, 2011 13:13:12 GMT
Unfortunately, you could say the same about the Muslim faith. It's different to the majority belief and is thus a barrier to integration. I don't think either notion applies. We should be celebrating our differences under the banner of "being British", not ghettoising sub-groups. People who despise others for being different, even though they're breaking no law, have the problem, not the people they despise. Agree, but islam could make greater efforts to modernise and disassociate itself from the extremist elements. Good point. When Muslim elders are being interviewed I often think "why don't you overtly disassociate yourself from the radicals?" No doing so just makes some people believe it's a pan-Muslim conspiracy.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 13:30:20 GMT
Unfortunately, you could say the same about the Muslim faith. It's different to the majority belief and is thus a barrier to integration. I don't think either notion applies. We should be celebrating our differences under the banner of "being British", not ghettoising sub-groups. People who despise others for being different, even though they're breaking no law, have the problem, not the people they despise. Agree, but islam could make greater efforts to modernise and disassociate itself from the extremist elements. Deep down beneath the racism and bigotry of the EDL a valid point is being made. No one is saying muslims are the problem. Aren't they? A large proportion of the EDL support are saying exactly this. Certain people on this forum are saying this. I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Some people put all muslims in the same bracket. I dont think many mean to, but there is no muslim leadership coming out against radical Islam. There is no muslim outrage when people are killed in the name if islam. Its confusing, and not helpful to the good muslims of this country
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Post by moobs on Feb 7, 2011 14:09:11 GMT
Send 'em all to the gas chambers, they'll soon stop rabble rousing then....
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Post by luvthepink on Feb 7, 2011 14:49:32 GMT
I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Some people put all muslims in the same bracket. I dont think many mean to, but there is no muslim leadership coming out against radical Islam. There is no muslim outrage when people are killed in the name if islam. Its confusing, and not helpful to the good muslims of this country
Wheres the confusion?? when people refuse to condemn the bombings it shows where their affinities lie. When the inevitable happens and we go to war with an Islamic state who have nuclear weapons all hell will break loose as ALL Muslims here will side with that state and we will have civil war on our streets. we see stories of "normal law abiding" Muslims who go as far to murder their own daughters if they veer from the Islamic way,if they can do that do you really think they will think twice about us?? wake up!! their silence is deafening.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 14:59:24 GMT
If we're talking about them and us:
"them" is people like you and muslim extremists
"us" is the decent majority, whatever religion or race they are part of
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Post by dannyc on Feb 7, 2011 15:08:41 GMT
Parts of Islam are evil, just read the Koran. The English Defence League are not targeting Islam or Muslims, but certain sections. There is a lot that goes on that people dont see, but the EDL bring it to peoples attention, and they are gaining a lot of support Parts of Christianity are equally evil, and the EDL seem to be protesting islamism on the basis that Britain is a Christian nation. It paranoia. All this 'do you want sharia law in the UK' b#llock is just pure garbage. The day sharia is established in Britian I will go out and volunteer to be stoned to death. when did you last see a christian blow themselves up to kill others and isn't Britain a christian country .
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Post by dannyc on Feb 7, 2011 15:10:59 GMT
Islam, is that the religion that stone women to death and chop peoples limbs off for stealing? Yes. And Christianity is that religion that burnt people at the stake and stretched them on the rack. Not currently, of course, but Christians have no right to be smug. PS I realise you're not sticking up for Christianity, I'm just making a salient point. point is Christianity isn't barbaric like it was in the middle ages you go look in Islamic countries they haven't modernized there religion that's why in Europe now people don't want it and about time to .
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Post by Boogaloo on Feb 7, 2011 15:13:14 GMT
There is no muslim outrage when people are killed in the name if islam. Hmmm, after 9/11, 7th July, Madrid and Bali bombings there was widespread condemnation and sympathy from pretty much all Arab and Islamic governments, as well as the British Muslim Council. I know there are a few extremist idiots who were jumping up and down and having a party, but it is fair to say they are the minority.
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Post by moobs on Feb 7, 2011 15:28:15 GMT
Exactly, it's like someone from another country seeing the BNP in the news and thinking that's what British people are like....They've got a British Flag, look British, people could be forgiven for thinking that's what all British people think.....But the truth is it's a very small minority of idiots who are best ignored....
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 15:35:24 GMT
There is no muslim outrage when people are killed in the name if islam. Hmmm, after 9/11, 7th July, Madrid and Bali bombings there was widespread condemnation and sympathy from pretty much all Arab and Islamic governments, as well as the British Muslim Council. I know there are a few extremist idiots who were jumping up and down and having a party, but it is fair to say they are the minority. Even muslims admit there wasnt nearly enough condemnation of these attacks. But when someone draws a cartoon of their prophet, there is uproar. I certainly didnt hear the same uproar when people were killed, yes murdered, in the name of islam
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 7, 2011 15:35:57 GMT
Most wars are about religion Really? Let's examine that gem of a statement in terms of major 20th/21st century wars - > Boer war - no; > First world war - no; > Second world war - no; > Korean war - no; > Vietnam war(s) - no; > Kuwait war - no; > Balkan war(s) - no; > Afghanistan - yes, arguably; > Iraq war - no. Hardly compelling support for your argument. PS There are plenty of others too - Biafra, Dafur, anti-colonial conflicts, Malaysia. I think you could persuasively argue that the balkan wars were quite considerably about religion YH. Your point still stands though. Wars are about power, plain and simple. If you choose to dress that war up in the sheep's clothing of religion that's your own lookout.
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Post by Yellowbrains on Feb 7, 2011 16:00:42 GMT
I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Some people put all muslims in the same bracket. I dont think many mean to, but there is no muslim leadership coming out against radical Islam. There is no muslim outrage when people are killed in the name if islam. Its confusing, and not helpful to the good muslims of this countryWheres the confusion?? when people refuse to condemn the bombings it shows where their affinities lie. When the inevitable happens and we go to war with an Islamic state who have nuclear weapons all hell will break loose as ALL Muslims here will side with that state and we will have civil war on our streets. we see stories of "normal law abiding" Muslims who go as far to murder their own daughters if they veer from the Islamic way,if they can do that do you really think they will think twice about us?? wake up!! their silence is deafening. And what if the country goes to war with a Catholic nation?
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Post by yellowhun on Feb 7, 2011 16:14:39 GMT
I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Some people put all muslims in the same bracket. I dont think many mean to, but there is no muslim leadership coming out against radical Islam. There is no muslim outrage when people are killed in the name if islam. Its confusing, and not helpful to the good muslims of this countryWheres the confusion?? when people refuse to condemn the bombings it shows where their affinities lie. When the inevitable happens and we go to war with an Islamic state who have nuclear weapons all hell will break loose as ALL Muslims here will side with that state and we will have civil war on our streets. we see stories of "normal law abiding" Muslims who go as far to murder their own daughters if they veer from the Islamic way,if they can do that do you really think they will think twice about us?? wake up!! their silence is deafening. And what if the country goes to war with a Catholic nation? What does this mean?
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Post by yellowg on Feb 7, 2011 16:31:31 GMT
I agree with some of the sentiments of the EDL.
I value what we stand for and our heritage, but I feel British government after government have let us down and put us in a quite tense situation with the muslim religion. Our government have not been strong enough to protect the majority and their beliefs - and for me that means our country has been grossly mismanaged for over two decades.
England seems to be a country that loves debate, but on occassions you shut it off and do the right thing and make a decision that will benefit the majority. I think we have lost other cultures respect because our government has no back bone.
I honestly believe most muslims were shocked when certain schools told parents that there were no nativity plays one year. The reaction was to blame muslims for voicing their discontent at our beliefs when I think in fact the government had one or two people putting a bit of pressure on - and they folded!!!
I think the government have regretted going to war in iraq - and are now over sensitive to any cultures demands apart from our own. Its a huge royal f**k up and ironically the awfully weak stance taken by the people running our country have given parties like the EDL some power and recognition.
It didn't have to be this way.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 16:33:49 GMT
I agree with some of the sentiments of the EDL. I value what we stand for and our heritage, but I feel British government after government have let us down and put us in a quite tense situation with the muslim religion. Our government have not been strong enough to protect the majority and their beliefs - and for me that means our country has been grossly mismanaged for over two decades. England seems to be a country that loves debate, but on occassions you shut it off and do the right thing and make a decision that will benefit the majority. I think we have lost other cultures respect because our government has no back bone. I honestly believe most muslims were shocked when certain schools told parents that there were no nativity plays one year. The reaction was to blame muslims for voicing their discontent at our beliefs when I think in fact the government had one or two people putting a bit of pressure on - and they folded!!! I think the government have regretted going to war in iraq - and are now over sensitive to any cultures demands apart from our own. Its a huge royal f**k up and ironically the awfully weak stance taken by the people running our country have given parties like the EDL some power and recognition. It didn't have to be this way. Very true
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 17:01:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 17:17:58 GMT
When the inevitable happens and we go to war with an Islamic state who have nuclear weapons all hell will break loose as ALL Muslims here will side with that state and we will have civil war on our streets. John, due to the fact you haven't come out and immediately condemned luvthepink's views above do I take that as you agreeing with him? The problem the EDL have is quite similar to the problem many honest, lawabiding British Muslims have. John Lennon has tried to pled the peaceful EDL cause when Luvthepink has waded in with his open racism. Should the two be judged together since they have loosely based similarities? NOONE should have to defend themselves based on someone they have no connection with's actions and nor should they be judged on them. I don't agree with the on going wars in Iraq and Afganistan or many of the things the British army have done in other parts of the world, but I don't think I need to constantly tell everyone I meet incase they judge me based solely on that.
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Post by concretebob on Feb 7, 2011 17:19:36 GMT
I don't agree with the EDL's views in any way, in fact i'm a bit of a leftie myself, but we live in a free country and we all have a right to an opinion. I don't think the EDL are always allowed to express their views as much as other groups like UAF.
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 17:40:53 GMT
When the inevitable happens and we go to war with an Islamic state who have nuclear weapons all hell will break loose as ALL Muslims here will side with that state and we will have civil war on our streets. John, due to the fact you haven't come out and immediately condemned luvthepink's views above do I take that as you agreeing with him? The problem the EDL have is quite similar to the problem many honest, lawabiding British Muslims have. John Lennon has tried to pled the peaceful EDL cause when Luvthepink has waded in with his open racism. Should the two be judged together since they have loosely based similarities? NOONE should have to defend themselves based on someone they have no connection with's actions and nor should they be judged on them. I don't agree with the on going wars in Iraq and Afganistan or many of the things the British army have done in other parts of the world, but I don't think I need to constantly tell everyone I meet incase they judge me based solely on that. Thats his opinion. Im not saying i agree with it. I have my own opinions, which i think i have portrayed fairly on here, without racism or hate. Take a look at this, a pretty good explanation why the EDL exist, and why even if people dont agree with them, they cant hide away from whats going on. I wonder what the UAF would say about this? Ive never heard them say anything against these people, so are they saying its ok? www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T7eQyah4qU&sns=fb
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2011 17:54:02 GMT
No, I completely agree with you John. You shouldn't need to defend your beliefs based on his extreme views... and neither should the wider muslim community need to defend themselves based on other extreme views. That's my point. Why should there be one rule for "them" and one for you?
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Post by John Lennon on Feb 7, 2011 18:03:52 GMT
No, I completely agree with you John. You shouldn't need to defend your beliefs based on his extreme views... and neither should the wider muslim community need to defend themselves based on other extreme views. That's my point. Why should there be one rule for "them" and one for you? As ive said, i have no issues with muslims. There are some decent people within the muslim community
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