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Post by malcolmsmoustache on Aug 22, 2017 17:56:54 GMT
I'm not sure how much football some of the posters on this forum have either played and/or watched. Hemmings isn't good enough for L1. But he will probably be very good in L2. Most players have their level. It's a bit like Jordan Rhodes. Goals galore in the Championship. But goalless in the Prem. Ditto Patrick Bamford. I could go on. But i cba. Pretty basic stuff.
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Post by amershamdave on Aug 22, 2017 18:00:22 GMT
It's a real shame, imo. When he signed for us, I saw the reports and thought we'd got ourselves a winner. 15 in 50-odd games wasn't a total disaster, though.
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Hemmings
Aug 22, 2017 18:06:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by charliesghost on Aug 22, 2017 18:06:00 GMT
I'd like to know where we've maxed out our budget? We've lost McAleny, Maguire, Scarz, Lundstrum, Sercombe, Edwards, Dunkley and possibly Johnson's on his way out, so with what we've brought in I struggle to see the increase! Add to that the monies we've received and it looks more like selling assets to maximise returns to me. The next week or so will be very telling to me in what direction the club really want to go in. Highlights has already touched on this, but..... Skarz, Lundstram, Sercombe & Dunkley were all signed while we were in League Two, and I don't believe any of them renegotiated their deals. So all would likely have been on less than average League One wages. McAleny was on loan from Everton, so we may well have only been paying a proportion of his wages (admittedly, that's speculation, but it does happen with loans from established Premier league clubs). So I'd guess that Edwards and Maguire were the only two of those for whom we were paying a good League One wage. Now, I'd guess that we're paying Obika, Henry, Williamson and Payne good League One wages (perhaps with some terms that limit our exposure to injury). Add in Tiendalli, Pekalski, Ricardinho, Xemi, Van Kessel and Shearer....and even if they're cheaper than average, it seems very likely to me that our wage bill has gone up this year. We have more first team players in total compared to the end of last season, and more players that are established at this, or a higher level. No surpise for me at all that we're now in a One in - One out phase. Why would we be paying back Payne a good league 1 salary but no Conor mcaleny? Plus a lot of players have contracts that automatically trigger higher wages in the event of promotion. Do you honestly think that an ambitious player like lundstram would have signed a long-term contract on league 2 wages? Or that skarz would have voluntarily jumped down mid-season with a big drop in wages? Nonsense, Tony.
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Post by yellowbow on Aug 22, 2017 18:07:32 GMT
I'm not sure how much football some of the posters on this forum have either played and/or watched. Hemmings isn't good enough for L1. But he will probably be very good in L2. Most players have their level. It's a bit like Jordan Rhodes. Goals galore in the Championship. But goalless in the Prem. Ditto Patrick Bamford. I could go on. But i cba. Pretty basic stuff. Same with Constable. Prolific in the COnference, not so much in league 2. Which is pretty much what then Shrewsbury manager Simmo alluded to when letting him join us, it nearly cost him his job when Beano started banging them in for us if I recall..? Midson on the other hand should be gracing to leading stadiums across Europe by now.
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Post by highlights on Aug 22, 2017 18:09:55 GMT
Right time to clear a few things up. Naturally I don't know the exact wage bill, but it seems logical we have hit the top edge of it. Some things you should know: - Transfer money in does not go into the wage bill. Transfer money in usually is paid over the course of a players contract - so if they get a three year deal at the new club, you get 1/3 of the total a year. So an overnight transfer doesn't mean you are suddenly flush with cash. We also need to pay the operational budget before any excess is released - we are, and have been, in debt for a while now. Excess transfer fees largely go into making the club solvent, maybe 20-30% is reinvested. - Most of the people let go were on L2 money. Many were offered better money, but a lot of them turned it down. So Dunkley, Lundstrum, Sercombe etc would not have been on good L1 salaries. Unless they signed a new contract in the last 12 months, they aren't earning that much money. - An average player in L1 costs you more than in L2. Seems obvious, but many miss it. - Injury hit players like Willamson are likely on small wages, but big playing bonuses - incentives them to keep fit. - Not all contacts are created equal. A one year contract does not have the same risk as a three year one. Often heads of football calculate their budgets over rolling three year periods. Offloading Kane very much seems about freeing up a hole in the budget to me. I've seen it many times before. I'd wager a loan or a free transfer is coming this way. Pep may well wait until the transfer window shuts, then when prices drop and managers know the squads they have to work with, loans are more likely to occur. With respect, I'm not sure your first point is typical of most transfers at our level. To be clear, when a transfer happens it is the players' REGISTRATION (a piece of paper) that is transferred from one club to another, with the original registration remaining with the league, rather than the PLAYER being transferred himself (even though that is a consequence). Sometimes (but certainly not very often at lower-league level) the registration transfer terms (the transfer fee) will stipulate that the fee will be paid over so many years or months, with some extras paid on top depending on the number of appearance the player goes on to make/ goals scored / promotion achieved etc. Whether the transfer fee is put into the playing squad (for wages) is down to the Directors and Board to decide and agree but I think you'll find that many smaller clubs do exactly that - no point in a non-league club selling their star player for say £1M and then not being able to use a % of that fee to pay the wages of the replacement they bring in. HH I promise you, most fees that are bigger than a token or small sum are done this way. I've seen hundreds of deals - The norm is for deals to be split over the length of the contract. Trust me on this one. I can't say much more or else I'm in choppy water with my employer! The issue is liquidity - most clubs can't raise that sum of money at once, unless it's very small. You can structure any deal how you want - but it's rare clubs get more that 50% of the cash up front for big deals relative to its size. Each club has its own liquidity limit - We could pay a £100k fee upfront, but I doubt Barnet could... Just as United could pay £1m upfront, whereas we couldn't. Registration is just very simple paperwork, at least on a practical level. Two clubs fax the FA and tell them the registration has changed hands, and can they approve it. It's done right at the end after both clubs are in agreement. There are never any clauses to it - that's an issue for the clubs.
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Post by highlights on Aug 22, 2017 18:12:46 GMT
Saying those players were signed in l2 so would have been on l2 wages is probably not entirely true though. I would bet that most would have had a automatic promotion wage rise agreed in their contracts. Pretty common place 'Elevator clauses' as they are known, are usually 10-15% and are not that common. They are just nice bonuses, they usually don't change the wage bill that much.
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Post by highlights on Aug 22, 2017 18:19:51 GMT
Highlights has already touched on this, but..... Skarz, Lundstram, Sercombe & Dunkley were all signed while we were in League Two, and I don't believe any of them renegotiated their deals. So all would likely have been on less than average League One wages. McAleny was on loan from Everton, so we may well have only been paying a proportion of his wages (admittedly, that's speculation, but it does happen with loans from established Premier league clubs). So I'd guess that Edwards and Maguire were the only two of those for whom we were paying a good League One wage. Now, I'd guess that we're paying Obika, Henry, Williamson and Payne good League One wages (perhaps with some terms that limit our exposure to injury). Add in Tiendalli, Pekalski, Ricardinho, Xemi, Van Kessel and Shearer....and even if they're cheaper than average, it seems very likely to me that our wage bill has gone up this year. We have more first team players in total compared to the end of last season, and more players that are established at this, or a higher level. No surpise for me at all that we're now in a One in - One out phase. Why would we be paying back Payne a good league 1 salary but no Conor mcaleny? Plus a lot of players have contracts that automatically trigger higher wages in the event of promotion. Do you honestly think that an ambitious player like lundstram would have signed a long-term contract on league 2 wages? Or that skarz would have voluntarily jumped down mid-season with a big drop in wages? Nonsense, Tony. Loan salary contributions are really weird. It all depends on how the club view the player. If it's someone they are looking to offload (like Conor) - you usually have to pay the full salary, as I imagine we did. If you are doing the club a favour by developing one of their players (JJ Kenny), you usually only contribute a %. I suspect we are not paying all of Payne's wages as we 'keeping him warm' if they need him in January, but it's still a fair whack on our budget. A lot of those players were playing for their futures, and were willing to accept smaller salaries, at least initially. The way football works is you sign as long a deal as you can, and if you do well ask for a new one half way through.
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Post by Denissmithswig on Aug 22, 2017 18:33:20 GMT
Saying those players were signed in l2 so would have been on l2 wages is probably not entirely true though. I would bet that most would have had a automatic promotion wage rise agreed in their contracts. Pretty common place 'Elevator clauses' as they are known, are usually 10-15% and are not that common. They are just nice bonuses, they usually don't change the wage bill that much. Unless you are one certain club and you put a wage increase of 20% in the players contract if you get promotion. Seems a good idea at the time to get the players to sign the deal but it might bite you on the backside when you get that promotion...
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Post by tonyw on Aug 22, 2017 18:34:42 GMT
Why would we be paying back Payne a good league 1 salary but no Conor mcaleny? Plus a lot of players have contracts that automatically trigger higher wages in the event of promotion. Do you honestly think that an ambitious player like lundstram would have signed a long-term contract on league 2 wages? Or that skarz would have voluntarily jumped down mid-season with a big drop in wages? Nonsense, Tony. Because Everton are an established big Premier League club who have a massive development squad, whilst Huddersfield are new to the league and do not. It's all speculation, obviously, but I would suspect that Everton are more likely to cut a deal to get their young player, who had five mostly unsuccessful loan spells, some playing time, than Huddersfield are for a player who already has 100 games under his belt and a reputation as a high class League One performer. Then equally it's speculation as to what escalators Lundstram had, or what wage Skarz was on. Likewise it's speculation to suggest that a former Dutch international with a shaky recent injury history, or a loanee from the Czech champions who is just a season removed from being one of their biggest ever transfer signings, is earning less than a MOR league one player. We do know that (pre-Hemmings), from the squad that finished last season to now, it's been 7 senior pros out (actually, I think it's 8, as UptheUs forgot Toni Martinez in his analysis), 10 senior pros in. All I'm saying is that I can easily believe - looking at the transfers - that the wage bill has gone up.
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 22, 2017 18:36:59 GMT
Saying those players were signed in l2 so would have been on l2 wages is probably not entirely true though. I would bet that most would have had a automatic promotion wage rise agreed in their contracts. Pretty common place 'Elevator clauses' as they are known, are usually 10-15% and are not that common. They are just nice bonuses, they usually don't change the wage bill that much. Maybe not just pointing out it's probably not that straight forward, also not talking into account those players could of been on high wages for l2 players. (We had a decent budget) and small squad. So might not have been that low for l1 wages when they went up. Maguire certainly
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Post by tonyw on Aug 22, 2017 18:40:19 GMT
Maybe not just pointing out it's probably not that straight forward, also not talking into account those players could of been on high wages for l2 players. (We had a decent budget) and small squad. So might not have been that low for l1 wages when they went up. Maguire certainly Maguire did a completely new one year deal when we got to League One. No escalators involved. I don't think anyone is arguing that he wasn't on a fair whack last season anyway. Just as, I imagine, noone is arguing that Williamson and/or Henry aren't going to be expensive squad members this season.
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Post by highlights on Aug 22, 2017 18:45:15 GMT
'Elevator clauses' as they are known, are usually 10-15% and are not that common. They are just nice bonuses, they usually don't change the wage bill that much. Unless you are one certain club and you put a wage increase of 20% in the players contract if you get promotion. Seems a good idea at the time to get the players to sign the deal but it might bite you on the backside when you get that promotion... Yep! Oh the stories I could tell you....
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 22, 2017 18:46:36 GMT
Maybe not just pointing out it's probably not that straight forward, also not talking into account those players could of been on high wages for l2 players. (We had a decent budget) and small squad. So might not have been that low for l1 wages when they went up. Maguire certainly Maguire did a completely new one year deal when we got to League One. No escalators involved. I don't think anyone is arguing that he wasn't on a fair whack last season anyway. Just as, I imagine, noone is arguing that Williamson and/or Henry aren't going to be expensive squad members this season. No ones arguing anything are they? I meant maguire at the time would have been on very high (above average l2) wages. And last season very good l1 wages. While I don't doubt Henry and Williamson are on a decent wage, the 20% increase alone is over 500k a year, before u add in the players like mags, lunny, sercs dunks and everyone else that has left.
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Hemmings
Aug 22, 2017 18:49:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by ag on Aug 22, 2017 18:49:51 GMT
He had a slight knock before Oldham, haven't heard anything since. Apart from a fake twitter account saying he's off to Mansfield. Not sure where I see him fitting in anymore. Anyone know anything? Does anyone know which was the fake twitter account ? Looks as thought they were pretty well informed
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Post by Marked Ox on Aug 22, 2017 19:25:28 GMT
This might be the first, and only time I ever say this.... but Steve Evans came across really well in that interview I bet you felt dirty writing that.
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Post by fat bloke on Aug 22, 2017 20:28:33 GMT
We are still a small club with limited resources and our biggest problem will be Kassandra and the money he bleeds from us,until that is sorted out we haven't got a cat in a hell's chance of progression.
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Post by cookie on Aug 23, 2017 7:52:33 GMT
It's a real shame, imo. When he signed for us, I saw the reports and thought we'd got ourselves a winner. 15 in 50-odd games wasn't a total disaster, though. 6 goals in 40 league games was, though
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 23, 2017 7:59:09 GMT
It's a real shame, imo. When he signed for us, I saw the reports and thought we'd got ourselves a winner. 15 in 50-odd games wasn't a total disaster, though. 6 goals in 40 league games was, though Take maguires pens out how many league goals did he score? Hardly a disaster when he wasn't played to his strengths
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Post by holdsteady on Aug 23, 2017 8:04:56 GMT
6 goals in 40 league games was, though Take maguires pens out how many league goals did he score? Hardly a disaster when he wasn't played to his strengths What were his strengths? He wasn't a great finisher, missed plenty of easy chances, he can't hold the ball up or link play nor work that hard. He looked average, so not sure what strengths we were supposed to play to.
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Post by ryaniobirdio on Aug 23, 2017 8:07:56 GMT
6 goals in 40 league games was, though Take maguires pens out how many league goals did he score? Hardly a disaster when he wasn't played to his strengths About 10, nearly double what Hemmings got despite not being played as a striker. Hemmings scored plenty of goals in cup games predominantly against teams from lower down the pyramid, so he may well be a success in L2. But we all saw him fluff good, clear cut chances a number of times during his time here. In fact his final contribution was in stoppage time in the final game of last season when he turned a defender inside out and then scuffed a shot horribly wide unchallenged. That just about summed up his time with us overall. I hope he tears it up down there because then we will get some of our fee back, but for a team looking to get promoted out of L1 I don't think there should be any tears.
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Hemmings
Aug 23, 2017 8:08:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by charliesghost on Aug 23, 2017 8:08:43 GMT
It's a real shame, imo. When he signed for us, I saw the reports and thought we'd got ourselves a winner. 15 in 50-odd games wasn't a total disaster, though. 6 goals in 40 league games was, though Yes. His goals tally against league 1 and better was something like 10 in 45. Against lower opposition/jpt it was almost a goal a game. So, as others have said, he has a level.
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Post by bigronaldo on Aug 23, 2017 8:09:37 GMT
I wouldn't totally rule out Hemmings getting back to bagging goals though. For various reasons, he never really got going here, but who is to say that his mojo won't return elsewhere? He has proved that he can be the man, a change of scene maybe the kick start he needs.
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Post by cookie on Aug 23, 2017 8:14:07 GMT
6 goals in 40 league games was, though Yes. His goals tally against league 1 and better was something like 10 in 45. Against lower opposition/jpt it was almost a goal a game. So, as others have said, he has a level. Yes, I agree he has a level. But with the goal of firing us to promotion from League 1 (this was surely what he was brought in for with the reported transfer fee?) 6 league goals can be considered an appalling return
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Post by dubaiyellow on Aug 23, 2017 8:23:10 GMT
My view is, people should agree to disagree and watch this space, Its now up to Hemmings to prove all the doubters wrong (and im one of those). Hes on loan, hes still our player, and he is welcome to come back if he starts finding the net.
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 23, 2017 8:24:34 GMT
Take maguires pens out how many league goals did he score? Hardly a disaster when he wasn't played to his strengths What were his strengths? He wasn't a great finisher, missed plenty of easy chances, he can't hold the ball up or link play nor work that hard. He looked average, so not sure what strengths we were supposed to play to. Just don't think we played him to the best of his ability. Along side Taylor he scored something like 6 in 8. Put crosses in the box he will score them. If we can get better then great, but I don't think he was as bad as some would make out. 6 league goals is more than Wes Thomas has managed in a season since 2011 for example.
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Post by brassmonkey on Aug 23, 2017 9:05:27 GMT
i dont rate wes thomas either
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Post by foley on Aug 23, 2017 9:30:52 GMT
What were his strengths? He wasn't a great finisher, missed plenty of easy chances, he can't hold the ball up or link play nor work that hard. He looked average, so not sure what strengths we were supposed to play to. Just don't think we played him to the best of his ability. Along side Taylor he scored something like 6 in 8. Put crosses in the box he will score them. If we can get better then great, but I don't think he was as bad as some would make out. 6 league goals is more than Wes Thomas has managed in a season since 2011 for example. Thomas may not be the right one either. But to be fair he has scored 2 league goals in 3 games this season and scored 3 league goals last season in not many games. So 5 league goals at league 1 level is say 15 games is a far far better conversion rate than KH (6 in 40). If he can stay fit, Thomas is likely to score double what KH will based on these numbers.
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 23, 2017 9:35:17 GMT
Just don't think we played him to the best of his ability. Along side Taylor he scored something like 6 in 8. Put crosses in the box he will score them. If we can get better then great, but I don't think he was as bad as some would make out. 6 league goals is more than Wes Thomas has managed in a season since 2011 for example. Thomas may not be the right one either. But to be fair he has scored 2 league goals in 3 games this season and scored 3 league goals last season in not many games. So 5 league goals at league 1 level is say 15 games is a far far better conversion rate than KH (6 in 40). If he can stay fit, Thomas is likely to score double what KH will based on these numbers. Does that make josh ruffels a better striker than both of them ?
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Aug 23, 2017 9:35:25 GMT
What were his strengths? He wasn't a great finisher, missed plenty of easy chances, he can't hold the ball up or link play nor work that hard. He looked average, so not sure what strengths we were supposed to play to. Just don't think we played him to the best of his ability. Along side Taylor he scored something like 6 in 8. Put crosses in the box he will score them. If we can get better then great, but I don't think he was as bad as some would make out. 6 league goals is more than Wes Thomas has managed in a season since 2011 for example. I'm not a great fan of either Thomas or Hemmings (and the jury is still out on our other strikers as well!) but those two are pretty similar in some ways. They are decent(ish) finishers if the ball is played across the 6 yard box, but unlikely to score a screamer, dribble past a number of players to slot it in, make run after run to get onto a through ball. Thomas has a bit more pace though. Neither of them have that extra little spark that makes them look likely to do something special (GvK managed that two minutes into his OUFC career! Maybe a flash in the pan, maybe not...) But up front we now have Wes Thomas (who, let's face it, isn't going to go the whole season uninjured!), Obika (who looks OK at holding the ball up but not a world beater in the 'scoring goals' department), the unknown quantity but promising GvK and Roberts - who I am amazed is still here. Henry doesn't score goals but various others will chip in (Hall, Ruffels etc) That is looking pretty threadbare to me. With Hemming's departure there simply MUST be another decent striker coming in and surely if Marvin is off to pastures new then we need to replace him as well.
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Post by bobsyouruncle on Aug 23, 2017 10:06:45 GMT
In today's Ox Mail Pep has indicated that the U's were unlikely to do anymore business in the loan market this window!
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