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Post by Paul Cannell on Jul 21, 2014 13:23:27 GMT
Either they are in it for the money, in which case they are also hoping to develop the club at the same time to possibly make even more money. Or perhaps, and I know this sounds crazy, but maybe they are doing what they said they'd do by taking every aspect of the club forward. If they or better still, we, knew they were going to make money out of a ground deal then all this additional spend (and I think we're looking at over 500k a year at least) would be just fine, maybe. Make a pot, sell the club & ground at a profit or keep it as a self-funding toy, fine. But the vaunted stadium deal is not done and a move to Water Eaton will be bitterly opposed. Mr Eales' flagship venture into sport (the F1 thing) was a disaster, he knows nothing about developing and that stuff. Mr Ashton has a rather spotted history in football. Mr Lenagan, who is in charge of new stadium matters, doesn't fill me with confidence in that role. What is the new management's vision for the club? What is their exit strategy? Sorry to repeat that but these are 'businessmen' or 'venture capitalists' and we need to know how they plan to get their profits out if we're going to have confidence in them. That said, the club was slowly dying under Lenagan (thank you Nick Merry) who, while he did take steps to improve long-term income (youth development), didn't improve the football experience. A change was clearly needed. Isn't it exciting! We supporters are like a tightrope walker crossing Niagara Falls blindfold on a wire. Only we don't know if the wire will be there when we take the next step.
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Post by browny on Jul 21, 2014 13:39:55 GMT
To be honest, that's where I struggle! With no assets, a fixed (if not increasing) rental cost and static (if not dwindling) income, I can't see how that could be done without a radical cost slashing / price increasing program that might cause as much damage in lost revenue as it saved. I wasn't advocating a spend, spend, spend policy though. I was merely reflecting on what was actually happening. I do agree that spending stupid sums of money on players with the aim of somehow recouping it by getting into the Championship whilst loading the club with debt would be daft. I just don't feel that we should be against change and the chances it may bring - because the alternative was stagnation and death by a thousand cuts. OK, so then we don't need to increase the playing budget by £250k. We don't need to spend all the money saved by Beanos/Smalleys/Riggs wages. we don't need to pay off the contract of a previous manager. We don't need to hire a new manager. We don't need to hire a team of top level coaches. We don't need a CEO paying himself £350k per year. We don't need Lenagans loans to become hard loans with interest. We don't need new hard loans from venture capitalists with interest. The new bunch are making financial matters much much worse, not better. There are other ways of achieving success as I've hinted at above and in other posts on this thread. Problem is that if the alternative group had got control and done the same then the view here would be that what they were doing was in some way magical Most (not all) have said they will see the actions of the new owners before making a judgement, they have made one signing and massively improved the coaching staff and they are being salted for overspending..............................that is exactly what most have been calling on IL to do for months and the new people are being slated for it Our fans really are something else
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Post by undisputed on Jul 21, 2014 13:42:31 GMT
Is the club spending more money on staff though?
Its easy to say Appleton is a Championship manager and therefore getting paid more, but thats not based on fact at all because no one knows how much hes getting paid. He may well be doing a Phil Brown (a much more experienced Premier League manager) whose admitted to taking a low salary at Southend on the basis that he wants to do well and get the club, and subsequently him, up to the top. Appleton could very well be earning less than Melville. No one actually knows.
With Ashton, the 350K figure has been banded about but yet again its not based on fact as we do not know.
Im concerned, as everyone should be, that when a club spends more than it can recoup then its a slippery slope and I remember the issues we had in the 90s where the club seemed on the verge of going bust every week, appeals on the radio for food parcels etc. but my problem with the current arguments is that they are all based on what we think is happening rather than what we actually know. I genuinely think, for the first time probably ever, the club is owned by intelligent people who arent using the club just as a way of making money, as the Maxwells, Kassam etc. have in the past. I may be completely wrong but I honestly feel that success for the club is what they want. At the end of the day, a shiny new stadium with a club playing Championship level football is worth a lot more than a shiny new stadium with a club playing League 2 football. If they want to make a success of this deal, on the pitch is just as important as off it, and I honestly believe they know that.
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Post by undisputed on Jul 21, 2014 13:43:53 GMT
One other thing, can someone please post a link detail how Eales involvement with F1 was a disaster.
Its been said a few times recently but again it seems to be based purely on someones opinion, rather than fact.
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Post by tonyw on Jul 21, 2014 13:56:22 GMT
One other thing, can someone please post a link detail how Eales involvement with F1 was a disaster. Its been said a few times recently but again it seems to be based purely on someones opinion, rather than fact. Here's one: www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10008874/Lloyds-puts-brakes-on-F1-venture-after-46.3m-loss.htmlDisaster for Lloyds Development Capital (for whom Eales was CEO) - although there's some suggestion that they managed to get a certain proportion of their money back. They certainly didn't make anything on the deal, and the team itself were completely useless.
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Post by charliesghost on Jul 21, 2014 14:03:12 GMT
Is the club spending more money on staff though? Its easy to say Appleton is a Championship manager and therefore getting paid more, but thats not based on fact at all because no one knows how much hes getting paid. He may well be doing a Phil Brown (a much more experienced Premier League manager) whose admitted to taking a low salary at Southend on the basis that he wants to do well and get the club, and subsequently him, up to the top. Appleton could very well be earning less than Melville. No one actually knows. With Ashton, the 350K figure has been banded about but yet again its not based on fact as we do not know. Im concerned, as everyone should be, that when a club spends more than it can recoup then its a slippery slope and I remember the issues we had in the 90s where the club seemed on the verge of going bust every week, appeals on the radio for food parcels etc. but my problem with the current arguments is that they are all based on what we think is happening rather than what we actually know. I genuinely think, for the first time probably ever, the club is owned by intelligent people who arent using the club just as a way of making money, as the Maxwells, Kassam etc. have in the past. I may be completely wrong but I honestly feel that success for the club is what they want. At the end of the day, a shiny new stadium with a club playing Championship level football is worth a lot more than a shiny new stadium with a club playing League 2 football. If they want to make a success of this deal, on the pitch is just as important as off it, and I honestly believe they know that. I honestly believe that they want to make a success out of it. Cannot see any reason whatsoever why that would not be the case. (As a side point, your contention that Maxwell bought the club as a way of making money is outlandish rubbish! He was persuaded to buy the club, after much pleading by the then owners, and then pursued some personal glory before trying to stem his losses by merging us. No owner of OUFC except for Kassam has ever bought the club primarily to make money. All WANTED success.) Eales and Ashton, therefore, are just the latest in a long line of people who have bought our club in pursuit of glory on the pitch. For me, their good intentions are not in doubt. But the big question is HOW that is pursued. And, in particular, whether a plan to achieve success involves a realistic level of debt, given the circumstances. The debt level is already appallingly high, given that OUFC has no assets. One would expect one result of the recent takeover deal to have been a reduction in the overall club debt. If it has not, if the debt continues to rise and if, worse, the acquisition of our own arena adds yet further to the debt, then the whole club is at the mercy of external events. We could be wound up in an instant, or be prey for another F Kassam - ie an opportunistic buyer who is presented by the creditors as the 'only option' to recover their 'debt'. It would be far healthier if the 'investment' coming in was coming as equity, not debt. I imagine that that is the heart of what Terry is writing, and probably at the heart of OxVox's concerns and questions. I don't think that many of us would have many concerns if major equity investments were being made in the club. If that is the case, and if OxVox then publicise that information, then a lot of these questions will disappear sharpish (I'd hope!)
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Post by undisputed on Jul 21, 2014 14:06:01 GMT
One other thing, can someone please post a link detail how Eales involvement with F1 was a disaster. Its been said a few times recently but again it seems to be based purely on someones opinion, rather than fact. Here's one: www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10008874/Lloyds-puts-brakes-on-F1-venture-after-46.3m-loss.htmlDisaster for Lloyds Development Capital (for whom Eales was CEO) - although there's some suggestion that they managed to get a certain proportion of their money back. They certainly didn't make anything on the deal, and the team itself were completely useless. Spot on, cheers. With regards to it being viewed as a failure, whats that gauged against? How many, if any, F1 teams make a profit? Does anybody know this? Or is it just the fact that it lost money which people have zeroed in on.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 21, 2014 14:35:17 GMT
by the time they leave we'll be so deeply indebted that we'll be on the scrapheap
That's the bit I don't get. The only people who will lose out financially by oufc going bust would be il and de as they presumably now have spilt the 8m soft debt. If they run it higher they will never get any of it back. Fk and staff being the others not to get their money.
Even if they got the stadium they could not just say oh well the clubs gone let's build on it. All they might get is the land deal around the surrounding area. If that's the sole thing they r after then why increase their losses in the team and staff, when it could just be basically run I to the ground aka firoz
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Post by tonyw on Jul 21, 2014 14:49:02 GMT
Spot on, cheers. With regards to it being viewed as a failure, whats that gauged against? How many, if any, F1 teams make a profit? Does anybody know this? Or is it just the fact that it lost money which people have zeroed in on Well, it's the fact that it lost money combined with achieving absolutely nothing in terms of results. They'd never won a single point until Monaco this year. Don't know for sure about the other teams - but I do see that the Williams F1 team (no relation) had an EBIT of £11.5m in 2012. So you can make money from the sport! www.planetf1.com/driver/3378/9292302/Williams-report-optimistic-2013-results
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Post by ox18 on Jul 21, 2014 15:02:27 GMT
Only here could the announcement of possibly the finest backroom set up in the clubs history be seen as a negative. Call me naive if you want but I think that this is fantastic news which shows that the current set up are serious about the development of the club. But for all the doom mongers out there, I'll ask this one question. IF the new owners are only in it for the money, and IF they intend to buy the ground, build another, knock down first ground, build houses on it etc etc - why spend any money at all on the clubs infrastructure? The cost of the stadium is fixed so we are led to believe. The cost of a new site would have be factored in. The knocking down, building up costs would remain constant - the only thing that will reduce the profit available will be the day to day costs between now and the day they walk away. So forget about your conspiracy theories and other random b*llshit and tell me what there is to gain from a venture capitalists perspective investing in team affairs? Good post...Jesus I was so upbeat with progress within the structure of the club till I came onto this thread. As soon as we sign the three or so new players that everyoneis deperate for, a new thread will appear claiming that the club will be bust in two weeks with all the extra wages.
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Post by Mark on Jul 21, 2014 15:24:47 GMT
Godalming's answer is normally increase revenue and cut costs but with no realistic plans on how to do that.
Oh yes, cut the sports science because Lenagan was taking a big cut (peanuts) and that running up shotover was good enough in the 80s so is good enough now.
Eales and co are the only people funding the club other than tickets and match day, so they must have some idea they can afford this, and if they fail there is no one to pick up the debt.
See my questions on the Oxvox thread too please Terry.
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Post by pottersrightboot on Jul 21, 2014 15:35:13 GMT
Come on , this is all a little OTT. I can't see how anyone can have realistic 'serious concerns' yet.
There's quite a lot of like for like going on at the moment in re the support staff with Melville out and Fazackerly in. Plus how can you say the new boys have gone for broke when al they've done so far is sign 1 player and pushed some of the youth squad forward?
You have to invest to get a return. I'm pleased a known coach has come in to support Appleton.
As for Micky, my opinion, he's a lucky man still to have a job.
More importantly, we need 4 new decent players for the 14/15 squad and time is cracking on. Let's get on with it!
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Post by bigfella72 on Jul 21, 2014 15:52:14 GMT
Come on , this is all a little OTT. I can't see how anyone can have realistic 'serious concerns' yet. There's quite a lot of like for like going on at the moment in re the support staff with Melville out and Fazackerly in. Plus how can you say the new boys have gone for broke when al they've done so far is sign 1 player and pushed some of the youth squad forward? You have to invest to get a return. I'm pleased a known coach has come in to support Appleton. As for Micky, my opinion, he's a lucky man still to have a job. More importantly, we need 4 new decent players for the 14/15 squad and time is cracking on. Let's get on with it! Agree with you prob except for the 4 new players for 14/15! You could argue we have 16 already. Clarke, Crocombe,Hunt,Bevans,Mulljns,Wright,Raynes,Newey,Meades,Collins,Rose,Whing,Ruffels,Potter,Kitson & Hylton plus O'Dowda and another one or two youths knocking on the door.
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Post by yellowg on Jul 21, 2014 16:20:32 GMT
All I want the club to achieve is to allow me to ENJOY and look forward to watching my beloved OUFC. I am a supporter, I love football, I am ready to spend money, but a month ago we were dead in the water. I need to see a level of ambition to give me hope. We live in a world full of options now. Last season, a trip to IKEA with the missus and a 1.00 hot dog was more desirable at times than going to The Kassam. I would be more worried if the model we had before Eales and co was sustainable - it wasn't. We all want to enjoy and have hope for the future yellowg. I am sure you would not want us to read into your post that you want the club to spend money to create that hope, only for the club to be bankrupt a year or so later and no longer even exist. Enjoyment and hope needs to come from building the club slowly and steadily, so that success is lasting, rather than demanding it be done here and now. No need to read in to it - someone HAS TO SPEND MONEY to create a situation where we can progress. We need an initial investment to kick start the club again. Thats the reality of it all. I hope Eales and co do find a way of making serious money from the venture - as long as we are competetive on the field whilst he is doing it. I am an OUFC fan - thats all. I don't go to bed worrying about wage budgets, management structure, season ticket sales etc. I'm not interested in all the details, not because I'm naive, but because it's not good for blood pressure. I go to bed looking forward to the new signings, to seeing how MAPP gets us playing, how the young lads develop this season, to the first home game in August, and having a boozed up sing song at games. I hope we are successful next season, but show me intent and ambition, and I will show you my debit card details. The new boys have acted swiftly. I feel a few thousand people might feel similar to me about now - excited.
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Post by myles on Jul 21, 2014 16:56:51 GMT
There's quite a lot of like for like going on at the moment in re the support staff with Melville out and Fazackerly in. So you think Melville and Fazackerly would be on similar salaries? Dream on. Let's look at this objectively. The club, pre-takeover, was losing around £1m/year ballpark. The main income stream is season ticket sales and ticket revenue. I'll be surprised if we sell much more than 3,000 STs this year and, with the discount period being extended, that means fewer tickets sold and at an average lower price too. So, that's probably around £200k or so lost income. We also now have a chief exec, a very well respected assistant manager, and a head of recruitment. I'd wager that the additional salaries here probably sees not far off an extra £200k/year going out of the club. So, we're £400k/year down before a ball has even been kicked. Now, what do you do to make up this shortfall? Well, the best way is to get a winning team on the park, seriously challenging for promotion. And I mean seriously, not some half-arsed effort like last year. And how much is that going to cost? The bottom line here is that last seasons squad simply wasn't good enough, we've released several and brought in not a lot. Now, to finish in the promotion spots, you need to be scoring around 70 goals in the season. And where are they going to come from? Let's be generous and say Danny Hylton will weigh in with 10 goals. That's still 60 to find. So, we need a 15-goal-a-season striker, a couple of attacking midfielders who will weigh in with 10 apiece, and another solid midfielder who'll net 5. So, that leaves 20 shared amongst the rest. That striker is going to cost around £120k/year, the two attacking midfields around £80k each, another £70k for the third. So, probably another £300-350k/season in wages for those, and a total wage bill in the region of £1.7-1.8m. But if the wage bill remains at the oft mooted £1.3-1.4m, there's a much slimmer chance of building a promotion winning side. Now, all this may be ok if the club was able to introduce some additional revenue streams by, for example, buying the stadium. But how long will that take? Frankly, I can't see any deal on the stadium being completed for at least 12 months, in which time the losses outlined above will continue, with a very slim chance of promotion (and the potential forward earnings that brings) and, therefore, the club debts increase. If the club does manage to buy the stadium, I also wonder how this is to be done? Is more debt going to be ladled onto the club to facilitate this purchase? Say it takes two years to finalise (which, considering the parties involved, the necessary inter-related transactions, and so on, isn't hard to imagine), with the increased backroom expenditure, reduced ticket income, and mid-table mediocrity, the club could have easily accrued a further £3m debt. Add in, say, £5-7m debt from a stadium purchase (and I am making an assumption here that the club will not bear the full cost), and we have a club.s with near enough £10m debt, very little in the way of revenue, and (again, making an assumption the new owners are here to make a return on their investment) owners who may very well be wanting to cut their losses. Which is almost exactly the same position we were in pre-Kassam's takeover.
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Post by pottersrightboot on Jul 21, 2014 17:09:46 GMT
There's quite a lot of like for like going on at the moment in re the support staff with Melville out and Fazackerly in. So you think Melville and Fazackerly would be on similar salaries? Dream on. Let's look at this objectively. The club, pre-takeover, was losing around £1m/year ballpark. The main income stream is season ticket sales and ticket revenue. I'll be surprised if we sell much more than 3,000 STs this year and, with the discount period being extended, that means fewer tickets sold and at an average lower price too. So, that's probably around £200k or so lost income. We also now have a chief exec, a very well respected assistant manager, and a head of recruitment. I'd wager that the additional salaries here probably sees not far off an extra £200k/year going out of the club. So, we're £400k/year down before a ball has even been kicked. Now, what do you do to make up this shortfall? Well, the best way is to get a winning team on the park, seriously challenging for promotion. And I mean seriously, not some half-arsed effort like last year. And how much is that going to cost? The bottom line here is that last seasons squad simply wasn't good enough, we've released several and brought in not a lot. Now, to finish in the promotion spots, you need to be scoring around 70 goals in the season. And where are they going to come from? Let's be generous and say Danny Hylton will weigh in with 10 goals. That's still 60 to find. So, we need a 15-goal-a-season striker, a couple of attacking midfielders who will weigh in with 10 apiece, and another solid midfielder who'll net 5. So, that leaves 20 shared amongst the rest. That striker is going to cost around £120k/year, the two attacking midfields around £80k each, another £70k for the third. So, probably another £300-350k/season in wages for those, and a total wage bill in the region of £1.7-1.8m. But if the wage bill remains at the oft mooted £1.3-1.4m, there's a much slimmer chance of building a promotion winning side. Now, all this may be ok if the club was able to introduce some additional revenue streams by, for example, buying the stadium. But how long will that take? Frankly, I can't see any deal on the stadium being completed for at least 12 months, in which time the losses outlined above will continue, with a very slim chance of promotion (and the potential forward earnings that brings) and, therefore, the club debts increase. If the club does manage to buy the stadium, I also wonder how this is to be done? Is more debt going to be ladled onto the club to facilitate this purchase? Say it takes two years to finalise (which, considering the parties involved, the necessary inter-related transactions, and so on, isn't hard to imagine), with the increased backroom expenditure, reduced ticket income, and mid-table mediocrity, the club could have easily accrued a further £3m debt. Add in, say, £5-7m debt from a stadium purchase (and I am making an assumption here that the club will not bear the full cost), and we have a club.s with near enough £10m debt, very little in the way of revenue, and (again, making an assumption the new owners are here to make a return on their investment) owners who may very well be wanting to cut their losses. Which is almost exactly the same position we were in pre-Kassam's takeover. Lot of speculation there Myles. Now, my go. What if one of the kids get sold for £500K, what if a deal is being done as we speak re Kassam waiving rent for a couple of seasons pending a move away, what if, what if ,what if? What if Kitson has just had his contract paid up saving us £100K p.a ? FFS, give the new men a chance
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Post by eighteen93 on Jul 21, 2014 17:12:46 GMT
So you think Melville and Fazackerly would be on similar salaries? Dream on. Let's look at this objectively. The club, pre-takeover, was losing around £1m/year ballpark. The main income stream is season ticket sales and ticket revenue. I'll be surprised if we sell much more than 3,000 STs this year and, with the discount period being extended, that means fewer tickets sold and at an average lower price too. So, that's probably around £200k or so lost income. We also now have a chief exec, a very well respected assistant manager, and a head of recruitment. I'd wager that the additional salaries here probably sees not far off an extra £200k/year going out of the club. So, we're £400k/year down before a ball has even been kicked. Now, what do you do to make up this shortfall? Well, the best way is to get a winning team on the park, seriously challenging for promotion. And I mean seriously, not some half-arsed effort like last year. And how much is that going to cost? The bottom line here is that last seasons squad simply wasn't good enough, we've released several and brought in not a lot. Now, to finish in the promotion spots, you need to be scoring around 70 goals in the season. And where are they going to come from? Let's be generous and say Danny Hylton will weigh in with 10 goals. That's still 60 to find. So, we need a 15-goal-a-season striker, a couple of attacking midfielders who will weigh in with 10 apiece, and another solid midfielder who'll net 5. So, that leaves 20 shared amongst the rest. That striker is going to cost around £120k/year, the two attacking midfields around £80k each, another £70k for the third. So, probably another £300-350k/season in wages for those, and a total wage bill in the region of £1.7-1.8m. But if the wage bill remains at the oft mooted £1.3-1.4m, there's a much slimmer chance of building a promotion winning side. Now, all this may be ok if the club was able to introduce some additional revenue streams by, for example, buying the stadium. But how long will that take? Frankly, I can't see any deal on the stadium being completed for at least 12 months, in which time the losses outlined above will continue, with a very slim chance of promotion (and the potential forward earnings that brings) and, therefore, the club debts increase. If the club does manage to buy the stadium, I also wonder how this is to be done? Is more debt going to be ladled onto the club to facilitate this purchase? Say it takes two years to finalise (which, considering the parties involved, the necessary inter-related transactions, and so on, isn't hard to imagine), with the increased backroom expenditure, reduced ticket income, and mid-table mediocrity, the club could have easily accrued a further £3m debt. Add in, say, £5-7m debt from a stadium purchase (and I am making an assumption here that the club will not bear the full cost), and we have a club.s with near enough £10m debt, very little in the way of revenue, and (again, making an assumption the new owners are here to make a return on their investment) owners who may very well be wanting to cut their losses. Which is almost exactly the same position we were in pre-Kassam's takeover.
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Post by yellowoptimist on Jul 21, 2014 17:22:32 GMT
There's quite a lot of like for like going on at the moment in re the support staff with Melville out and Fazackerly in. So you think Melville and Fazackerly would be on similar salaries? Dream on. Let's look at this objectively. The club, pre-takeover, was losing around £1m/year ballpark. The main income stream is season ticket sales and ticket revenue. I'll be surprised if we sell much more than 3,000 STs this year and, with the discount period being extended, that means fewer tickets sold and at an average lower price too. So, that's probably around £200k or so lost income. We also now have a chief exec, a very well respected assistant manager, and a head of recruitment. I'd wager that the additional salaries here probably sees not far off an extra £200k/year going out of the club. So, we're £400k/year down before a ball has even been kicked. Now, what do you do to make up this shortfall? Well, the best way is to get a winning team on the park, seriously challenging for promotion. And I mean seriously, not some half-arsed effort like last year. And how much is that going to cost? The bottom line here is that last seasons squad simply wasn't good enough, we've released several and brought in not a lot. Now, to finish in the promotion spots, you need to be scoring around 70 goals in the season. And where are they going to come from? Let's be generous and say Danny Hylton will weigh in with 10 goals. That's still 60 to find. So, we need a 15-goal-a-season striker, a couple of attacking midfielders who will weigh in with 10 apiece, and another solid midfielder who'll net 5. So, that leaves 20 shared amongst the rest. That striker is going to cost around £120k/year, the two attacking midfields around £80k each, another £70k for the third. So, probably another £300-350k/season in wages for those, and a total wage bill in the region of £1.7-1.8m. But if the wage bill remains at the oft mooted £1.3-1.4m, there's a much slimmer chance of building a promotion winning side. Now, all this may be ok if the club was able to introduce some additional revenue streams by, for example, buying the stadium. But how long will that take? Frankly, I can't see any deal on the stadium being completed for at least 12 months, in which time the losses outlined above will continue, with a very slim chance of promotion (and the potential forward earnings that brings) and, therefore, the club debts increase. If the club does manage to buy the stadium, I also wonder how this is to be done? Is more debt going to be ladled onto the club to facilitate this purchase? Say it takes two years to finalise (which, considering the parties involved, the necessary inter-related transactions, and so on, isn't hard to imagine), with the increased backroom expenditure, reduced ticket income, and mid-table mediocrity, the club could have easily accrued a further £3m debt. Add in, say, £5-7m debt from a stadium purchase (and I am making an assumption here that the club will not bear the full cost), and we have a club.s with near enough £10m debt, very little in the way of revenue, and (again, making an assumption the new owners are here to make a return on their investment) owners who may very well be wanting to cut their losses. Which is almost exactly the same position we were in pre-Kassam's takeover. But as has been said on other threads if exactly the same thing was being announced by the Oxford consortium they would be heroes! Ou cannot get away from the fact that you have an agenda based on no facts but a suspicion because they are not your mates. Give it a break. It is now becoming boring and predictable. Let's all just wait and see. The difference is I would have said exactly the same with the Oxford consortium whereas I suspect you would have adopted the blind faith approach you criticise others for. Just give them a chance. You have NO idea what their finances / business plans are. I do know that based on the evidence of the last two weeks they appear to have a lot more class than some of our other potential backers!!
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Post by jimmycarterxi on Jul 21, 2014 17:39:03 GMT
Top post yellowoptimist!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 17:44:54 GMT
For those that don't know, Myles is now an officer at OxVox. If, after this week's meeting, they manage to convince him that they are not intent on killing the club out of spite, then I think we'll have seen the most impressive example of persuasion in the entire history of time.
As an OxVox member I would like assurances that ALL of the representatives present at that meeting will be objective and open to actually listening. I really doubt, given all that Myles has written over the last two weeks, whether he can sincerely state that he can be those things.
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Post by scotchegg on Jul 21, 2014 18:25:11 GMT
Yaaayyyy....Myles is back!!!! Like a Dementor to suck every trace of happiness from your soul!!! I bet I end up sitting next to this bore the whole pissing season!!!!
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 21, 2014 18:32:41 GMT
There's quite a lot of like for like going on at the moment in re the support staff with Melville out and Fazackerly in. So you think Melville and Fazackerly would be on similar salaries? Dream on. Let's look at this objectively. The club, pre-takeover, was losing around £1m/year ballpark. The main income stream is season ticket sales and ticket revenue. I'll be surprised if we sell much more than 3,000 STs this year and, with the discount period being extended, that means fewer tickets sold and at an average lower price too. So, that's probably around £200k or so lost income. We also now have a chief exec, a very well respected assistant manager, and a head of recruitment. I'd wager that the additional salaries here probably sees not far off an extra £200k/year going out of the club. So, we're £400k/year down before a ball has even been kicked. Now, what do you do to make up this shortfall? Well, the best way is to get a winning team on the park, seriously challenging for promotion. And I mean seriously, not some half-arsed effort like last year. And how much is that going to cost? The bottom line here is that last seasons squad simply wasn't good enough, we've released several and brought in not a lot. Now, to finish in the promotion spots, you need to be scoring around 70 goals in the season. And where are they going to come from? Let's be generous and say Danny Hylton will weigh in with 10 goals. That's still 60 to find. So, we need a 15-goal-a-season striker, a couple of attacking midfielders who will weigh in with 10 apiece, and another solid midfielder who'll net 5. So, that leaves 20 shared amongst the rest. That striker is going to cost around £120k/year, the two attacking midfields around £80k each, another £70k for the third. So, probably another £300-350k/season in wages for those, and a total wage bill in the region of £1.7-1.8m. But if the wage bill remains at the oft mooted £1.3-1.4m, there's a much slimmer chance of building a promotion winning side. Now, all this may be ok if the club was able to introduce some additional revenue streams by, for example, buying the stadium. But how long will that take? Frankly, I can't see any deal on the stadium being completed for at least 12 months, in which time the losses outlined above will continue, with a very slim chance of promotion (and the potential forward earnings that brings) and, therefore, the club debts increase. If the club does manage to buy the stadium, I also wonder how this is to be done? Is more debt going to be ladled onto the club to facilitate this purchase? Say it takes two years to finalise (which, considering the parties involved, the necessary inter-related transactions, and so on, isn't hard to imagine), with the increased backroom expenditure, reduced ticket income, and mid-table mediocrity, the club could have easily accrued a further £3m debt. Add in, say, £5-7m debt from a stadium purchase (and I am making an assumption here that the club will not bear the full cost), and we have a club.s with near enough £10m debt, very little in the way of revenue, and (again, making an assumption the new owners are here to make a return on their investment) owners who may very well be wanting to cut their losses. Which is almost exactly the same position we were in pre-Kassam's takeover. How the duck did I get the wage bill to 1.8m . I take it by starting at 1.2 and adding aal those figures in top. Well it was 1.2 last year. Then we off loaded beano, smalley,rigg, brown, wroe, Williams, Melville . Then they have allready said they will add 250k so ur figure is just make believe. Charlie's group said we needed to spend and additional 500k to be looking realistly at promotion . Is it ok for them to spend that but not the new guys. Like others have said I'm not sure someone so one sided is the best person to have on the oxvox board.
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Post by yellowilks on Jul 21, 2014 18:47:34 GMT
This thread is embarrassing . It's down to the club and it's directors and management what happens regarding debt and clearing it. Why as a fan would you worry about the potential consequences that you can't really do anything about either way ?
We are showing real ambition in driving forward as a football club, surely that's a good thing ? Can't see the point in fretting about something that's not got worse / happened yet ,
Lenegan had enough money to keep the club afloat. Eales is clearly minted etc, maybe Ashton too ... Well if you are minted you can throw money at stuff and if it's likely to do well which on paper it is. Then there will be some returns ,
Sign no one . People moan. Sign good management and coaches. People moan
Enjoy what's happening and what results are to hopefully follow
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 21, 2014 18:49:19 GMT
This thread is embarrassing . It's down to the club and it's directors and management what happens regarding debt and clearing it. Why as a fan would you worry about the potential consequences that you can't really do anything about either way ? We are showing real ambition in driving forward as a football club, surely that's a good thing ? Can't see the point in fretting about something that's not got worse / happened yet , Lenegan had enough money to keep the club afloat. Eales is clearly minted etc, maybe Ashton too ... Well if you are minted you can throw money at stuff and if it's likely to do well which on paper it is. Then there will be some returns , Sign no one . People moan. Sign good management and coaches. People moan Enjoy what's happening and what results are to hopefully follow That u for the firing squad! Any last requests
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Post by bazzer9461 on Jul 21, 2014 18:51:06 GMT
I would prefer Oxvox to ask the questions we all want to be asked and get the beat reply to these questions even if Oxvox have to answer the reply with another question. It does amaze me how myles is an Oxvox officer considering how bias he is towards the other consortium. He only joined the forum when Charlie's mob became known. Hopefully after the meeting between Oxvox and Ashton/Eales we may be more clearer to the future of OUFC.
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Post by myles on Jul 21, 2014 18:58:26 GMT
You have NO idea what their finances / business plans are. You are absolutely right: we don't. Despite this takeover being 12 months in the making, there has STILL been no communication about what the vision for the club is. Nothing about realistic aspirations for the club. Nothing about potential timescales for a stadium purchase. Nothing about what debt has been dealt with as part of the takeover. For those questioning my role with OxVox and, to be blunt, my integrity: I have huge concerns regarding what the new owners have planned for the club. And I am raising the questions which fans and, therefore, OxVox should be asking. I am more than willing to listen - in fact I'm crying out for the information. I am also mature enough and open-minded enough that, if a realistic plan is presented which puts the club on a sustainable and successful footing which does not load the club with additional debt, then I will gladly hold my hands up and admit my concerns were ill-founded.
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Post by myles on Jul 21, 2014 19:01:04 GMT
This thread is embarrassing . It's down to the club and it's directors and management what happens regarding debt and clearing it. Why as a fan would you worry about the potential consequences that you can't really do anything about either way ? That has to be one of the most defeatist things I've ever read on here.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 21, 2014 19:04:18 GMT
You have NO idea what their finances / business plans are. You are absolutely right: we don't. Despite this takeover being 12 months in the making, there has STILL been no communication about what the vision for the club is. Nothing about realistic aspirations for the club. Nothing about potential timescales for a stadium purchase. Nothing about what debt has been dealt with as part of the takeover. For those questioning my role with OxVox and, to be blunt, my integrity: I have huge concerns regarding what the new owners have planned for the club. And I am raising the questions which fans and, therefore, OxVox should be asking. I am more than willing to listen - in fact I'm crying out for the information. I am also mature enough and open-minded enough that, if a realistic plan is presented which puts the club on a sustainable and successful footing which does not load the club with additional debt, then I will gladly hold my hands up and admit my concerns were ill-founded. And what if that involves increasing the debt in the short term. But improving the team and back room . With it then starting to decrease or level out once the stadium is achieved ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:08:11 GMT
Your integrity isn't in question, Myles. Your ability to make an objective analysis of the situation, when you so firmly nailed your colours to the other group, is. That isn't you, it's human nature.
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Post by myles on Jul 21, 2014 19:11:55 GMT
And what if that involves increasing the debt in the short term. But improving the team and back room . With it then starting to decrease or level out once the stadium is achieved ? This is where the gamble comes in. How much debt is it acceptable to accrue prior to obtaining the stadium? Again, how is the stadium to be funded, i.e. will it result in more debt on the club? That's the issue here - if the plan is to build up debt in the short term to cover the playing side, and then add on more debt when the stadium is purchased, what position does that realistically leave the club in? Does that not mean that the additional revenues available from the stadium will simply be swallowed up in servicing the debt rather than actually moving the club forward?
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