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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 9:53:13 GMT
My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but I don't post too often on here anymore. Below is a copy of the message I've posted on Rage Online as well:
So Mickey Lewis goes from Oxford number 1 down to at best number 3 in the space of 4 months.
Am I really the only one who is concerned about how the club is expected to pay for all these new faces when the club has lost money hand over fist without them?
Does no one else remember the numerous times that the club has ended up on the verge of bankruptcy in the last 35 years as a result of overspending?
Or the effect on club staff who went unpaid for long periods?
Is everyone else really so shallow that all they care about is trying to win at any cost?
I am amazed no one else has raised their head above the parapet to raise concerns.
Oxford United doesn't have a virtually unlimited fan base. It never will. The club will always be limited by its size, and that is one of the attractions of the club, but it is also why the club must operate within the financial constraints that size allows. OUFC are not ManUre and nor should we try to be. We are not even a Sheffield Wednesday, or Leicester City and nor should we try to be.
We've been losing £800k per year and similar levels for several years. Paying off Waddock will have added another large chunk to that. Paying the new faces will have added a shed load more to that. The suggested increase in playing budget of £250k adds a bucket load more. Realistically we could be looking at annual losses of £1.5m. The club can't afford to pay that back. The money will be loaned and secured on club assets, including potentially whatever stadium the club owns. So when these new boys get bored or have had enough of underwriting losses, they will want their money back, with the only asset available to fund it being the stadium. Eales has already publicly stated that he isn't interested in losing money over Oxford United. We could easily end up as the next Portsmouth, or potentially much worse with the lower fan base that we have.
I've actively supported OUFC for almost 34 years, and I would like to know that in 34 years time, OUFC will still exist to be supported, even if I'm not around to do so. Please don't hang your hat on a stadium move to pay for all this. It might happen and it might not, and if it does happen it won't pay for everything forever. And definitely don't hang your hat on money from StadCo to pay for it as it will never come even close.
Please lets not have demands for huge "investment", which is actually just spending under a more preferred title, and not investment at all. The end of that path only has one result.
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Post by Si Bradbury on Jul 21, 2014 9:55:36 GMT
OxVox meeting Mr Ashton and Mr Eales tomorrow, obviously some big questions will be asked and I expect they will answer honestly to them all. Mr Ashton, to date, has been open and honest during the brief discussions we have had.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:01:43 GMT
I did touch upon this subject on the Dereck Fazackerley thread but oufcyellows assured me that "Ffs if they couldn't afford it they wouldnt appoint them ,they ain't stupid".
To some extent, you do have to speculate to accumulate. But any increase of the debt the club owes is an issue for me. Looking forward to the outcome of the OxVox meeting.
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Post by bigfella72 on Jul 21, 2014 10:05:12 GMT
I did touch upon this subject on the Dereck Fazackerley thread but oufcyellows assured me that "Ffs if they couldn't afford it they wouldnt appoint them ,they ain't stupid". To some extent, you do have to speculate to accumulate. But any increase of the debt the club owes is an issue for me. Looking forward to the outcome of the OxVox meeting. Hasn't Fazackerley just taken Melvilles wage?
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:06:18 GMT
I did touch upon this subject on the Dereck Fazackerley thread but oufcyellows assured me that "Ffs if they couldn't afford it they wouldnt appoint them ,they ain't stupid". To some extent, you do have to speculate to accumulate. But any increase of the debt the club owes is an issue for me. Looking forward to the outcome of the OxVox meeting. It has nothing to do with what Eales and Ashton can afford. It is what the club can afford that matters. The club is not the same thing as Ashton and Eales. They are very separate entities, legally, financially and morally. Ashton and Eales are administrators and venture capitalists. They never lose their money.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:07:51 GMT
I did touch upon this subject on the Dereck Fazackerley thread but oufcyellows assured me that "Ffs if they couldn't afford it they wouldnt appoint them ,they ain't stupid". To some extent, you do have to speculate to accumulate. But any increase of the debt the club owes is an issue for me. Looking forward to the outcome of the OxVox meeting. Hasn't Fazackerley just taken Melvilles wage? Has he? He has taken Melvilles position, but that's where the similarity ends. I very much doubt that ex-England Assistant boss and Newcastle head coach are on the same wages as ex-low level OUFC coach was on. And how much did Ashton pay himself at previous clubs? £350k per year so I hear. He hasn't replaced anyone.
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Post by bigfella72 on Jul 21, 2014 10:08:46 GMT
Hasn't Fazackerley just taken Melvilles wage? Has he? He has taken his position. But I very much doubt they are on the same wages. And how much did Ashton pay himself at previous clubs? £350k per year so I hear. He hasn't replaced anyone. All speculation?
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Post by Si Bradbury on Jul 21, 2014 10:10:09 GMT
Lots of people can throw supposition about but with respect a Championship Manager and someone like Fazackerley are probably on a bit better remuneration than Waddock and Melville. We've also appointed a CEO and a Head of Recruitment.
I don't think throwing "FFS if they couldn't afford it they wouldn't appoint them' is a sensible reply to the concerns being made. Someone is paying for it granted but the questions tomorrow should shed some light on the plan.
Quite looking forward to it.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:11:52 GMT
Has he? He has taken his position. But I very much doubt they are on the same wages. And how much did Ashton pay himself at previous clubs? £350k per year so I hear. He hasn't replaced anyone. All speculation? Of course it is speculation. But educated speculation based on factual history.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Jul 21, 2014 10:14:03 GMT
It has nothing to do with what Eales and Ashton can afford. It is what the club can afford that matters. The club is not the same thing as Ashton and Eales. They are very separate entities, legally, financially and morally. Ashton and Eales are administrators and venture capitalists. They never lose their money. Agree with this - except Eales lost a shedload of somebody's money in his F1 adventure. it would be very interesting to know what their 'exit strategy' is.
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Post by bigfella72 on Jul 21, 2014 10:14:47 GMT
Of course it is speculation. But educated speculation based on factual history. Even if he is on more, how much more? If Kitson goes we could probably afford to get Ferguson out of retirement!
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Post by eighteen93 on Jul 21, 2014 10:17:28 GMT
In terms of costs Andy Melville has left the coaching dept and we also lost Andy Lord from the Sports Science Dept. who I know was replaced a couple of weeks ago.
I would also say the likes of Constable, Smalley and Rigg were on decent wages. Wayne Brown is not on a playing contract too I seem to have read - so we may have saved a fair chunk off the football payroll.
Sure Mark Ashton will be on a decent salary as Chief Executive.
What we don't know is what a new front of shirt sponsorship deal will look like or whether the United In Business will produce some decent revenue. Ashton talks about the need to bring in revenue from other areas.
I do realise we must be approx. 1,000 down on season ticket sales which is the lifeblood of the club during the closed season.
The club looks far stronger in terms of its structure and organisation with the boardroom and day to day management strengthened and the coaching dept. revamped.
We just need some players, gulp.
Incidently I really hope some of the lapsed ST holders come back on board over the next two/three weeks - we need them!
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:18:51 GMT
Of course it is speculation. But educated speculation based on factual history. Even if he is on more, how much more? If Kitson goes we could probably afford to get Ferguson out of retirement! You can add at least one nought to the end. Kitson may not be leaving. Even if he does go, his wages are big but not that big, and the money would almost certainly go into the playing budget as Eales has already said he wants the playing budget increased by £250k. Even if Kitson does go, we don't save his wages as he has another year of contract left to run, which OUFC would have to pay for. That would result in even more losses.
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Post by Yellow River on Jul 21, 2014 10:18:51 GMT
I too have concerns GY, I posted this on the RadOx Ashton thread......
I listened to Mark Ashton on RadOx earlier today, to be fair he came across well and said all the right things that fans want to hear. Apart from the West Midlands accent it could easily have been Kelvin Thomas speaking. However like David Cameron and other PR types look at what they DO not what they SAY.
My biggest worry is that this new ownership will load the club up with more and more debt against the chance that a land/housing deal will be done sometime in the future, and if that doesn't come off then we're up creek......and it'll be bye, bye OUFC.
High stakes, a big gamble, a 25000 Brightonesque Stadium at Water Eaton with Championship football the prize.
In my view the proposed building of 4000 homes off Grenoble Rd, and the leader of OCC breaking cover over potential land developments at Water Eaton are the main reasons why the Ashton, Eales and Co are running our football club.
However as far as the on-field prospects go, I'm filled with more optimism since the appointment of Appleton and the first signing Collins.
Interesting times for sure.
OK, perhaps not the best constructed post I've ever made, but there does appear to be a lack of concern amongst the supporters about the current level of debt and the likely increased debt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 10:19:40 GMT
Who'd be a football club owner? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
The balance between over and under ambition is the toughest balance in sport.
The problem most clubs have is that the position of moral high ground means you fall behind those around you. You pay the bills and are safe but you're deemed by most (more often than not your own supporters) as failures. Arsenal are the best example I can think of in this respect.
Your concerns GY are, at least to me, very valid. However, unless they do something to change what has become a very depressing football club then I suspect they'll end up failing. The fact that we haven't seen a raft of high profile signings does, in a bizarre way, make me think that they're thinking medium to long term. It would be easy to spend-spend-spend and get headline grabbing players but saddle OUFC with liabilities it just cannot support. I think they're more considered that than.
I advocate some investment, we need it and I hope that OxVox can shed some light on exactly how it will be structured.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:29:58 GMT
In terms of costs Andy Melville has left the coaching dept and we also lost Andy Lord from the Sports Science Dept. I would also say the likes of Constable, Smalley and Rigg were on decent wages. Wayne Brown is not on a playing contract too I seem to have read. so we may have saved a fair chunk off the football payroll. Sure Mark Ashton will be on a decent salary as Chief Executive. What we don't know is what a new front of shirt sponsorship deal will look like or whether the United In Business will produce some decent revenue. Ashton talks about the need to bring in revenue from other areas. I do realise we must be approx. 1,000 down on season ticket sales which is the lifeblood of the club during the closed season. The club looks far stronger in terms of its structure and organisation with the boardroom and day to day management strengthened and the coaching dept. revamped. We just need some players, gulp. Incidently I really hope some of the lapsed ST holders come back on board over the next two/three weeks - we need them! Melville wages = peanuts. Andy Lord wages = peanuts. And he is being replaced anyway, so irrelevant. Constable wages saving is good but that's a big loss of goals which will need to be replaced and will cost just as much. Smalley and Rigg again decent wage savings but will need to be replaced. Wayne Brown is indeed now only a coach, but wages saving is small. Player changes are completely irrelevant anyway as they will not affect a reduction in costs as Eales wants an increased playing budget, not decreased. So we still have all the new faces adding wages, and the paying off of previous employees contracts, all adding to the losses with no cost savings. League 2 hirt sponsorship is measured in terms of a few tens of thousands, not many hundreds of thousands. United In business added revenue will be peanuts, again tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands, if the club is very lucky. Ashton can talk about bringing revenue from other sources until he is blue in the face, but until he does it, it counts for zilch. Others with far better experience have tried and failed before him. I hadn't even considered reduced season ticket sales. If that occurs, and we don't know yet what the numbers will be, that will make matters much worse than they already are. The club structure may on the face of it look stronger, but there is a price to pay for that. The telling point is what is the bottom line in the accounts and how will it ultimately be paid for?
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:31:15 GMT
I too have concerns GY, I posted this on the RadOx Ashton thread...... I listened to Mark Ashton on RadOx earlier today, to be fair he came across well and said all the right things that fans want to hear. Apart from the West Midlands accent it could easily have been Kelvin Thomas speaking. However like David Cameron and other PR types look at what they DO not what they SAY.
My biggest worry is that this new ownership will load the club up with more and more debt against the chance that a land/housing deal will be done sometime in the future, and if that doesn't come off then we're up creek......and it'll be bye, bye OUFC.
High stakes, a big gamble, a 25000 Brightonesque Stadium at Water Eaton with Championship football the prize.
In my view the proposed building of 4000 homes off Grenoble Rd, and the leader of OCC breaking cover over potential land developments at Water Eaton are the main reasons why the Ashton, Eales and Co are running our football club.
However as far as the on-field prospects go, I'm filled with more optimism since the appointment of Appleton and the first signing Collins.
Interesting times for sure.
OK, perhaps not the best constructed post I've ever made, but there does appear to be a lack of concern amongst the supporters about the current level of debt and the likely increased debt. I think that's a pretty fair post.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:35:00 GMT
Who'd be a football club owner? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. The balance between over and under ambition is the toughest balance in sport. The problem most clubs have is that the position of moral high ground means you fall behind those around you. You pay the bills and are safe but you're deemed by most (more often than not your own supporters) as failures. Arsenal are the best example I can think of in this respect. Your concerns GY are, at least to me, very valid. However, unless they do something to change what has become a very depressing football club then I suspect they'll end up failing. The fact that we haven't seen a raft of high profile signings does, in a bizarre way, make me think that they're thinking medium to long term. It would be easy to spend-spend-spend and get headline grabbing players but saddle OUFC with liabilities it just cannot support. I think they're more considered that than. I advocate some investment, we need it and I hope that OxVox can shed some light on exactly how it will be structured. I tend to agree that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, but the reason for that is those fans who call for unmitigated spending to sate their desire for success and bragging rights. Fans need to be realistic about what the club can achieve and accept that success and stability are long term measures, not short term fixes with disastrous end results. The potential Water Eaton deal could be fantastic for the club - great location, great transport links etc. But why then the need to spend money on the rest of the club as if money grows on trees in Grenoble Road? Why not simply sort out the land and stadium deals, then get the club on an even keel with the additional revenue from owning a stadium, maintaining reduced losses. And then grow the club organically to achieve success with foundations in place to cover losses? The whole deal is being done arse about face. Loading the club with costs and debts, but with no guarantee of even achieving the stadium deal.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jul 21, 2014 10:37:05 GMT
We couldn't keep on as we were. The club was slowly going down a financial plughole.
The new lot have spent and are spending money. Which (to me at least) means they think there is money to be made, presumably via some sort of land deal. We have no financial assets of any note, so our position as tenants of the stadium must be it. Whether the club benefits from this in the long run remains to be seem, and we have to keep an eye on what is happening (of course!), but in this case I can't help thinking that if there is the slightest chance we can get out of the current unsustainable position, we might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb!
Let's see how OxVox get on when they meet.
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Post by Mark Sennett on Jul 21, 2014 10:37:31 GMT
It is a big conern terry and it will be one of the questions asked tmrw. The club was likely to be making a circa £1m loss this season before playing budget was increased, manager sacked, new manager/assistant appointed, chief exec apointed. We need to ask what is the current debt level, who#s it owed to, what is the financial forecast this season, expected attendance levels, who covers any loses and how, business plan on/off pitch. So as you say there have been some positive appointments but how is this being funded.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 10:37:35 GMT
Agree totally GY. Now come on Ashton spend some money so we can show those freaks down the A420 whats what!!
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:43:34 GMT
We couldn't keep on as we were. The club was slowly going down a financial plughole. The new lot have spent and are spending money. Which (to me at least) means they think there is money to be made, presumably via some sort of land deal. We have no financial assets of any note, so our position as tenants of the stadium must be it. Whether the club benefits from this in the long run remains to be seem, and we have to keep an eye on what is happening (of course!), but in this case I can't help thinking that if there is the slightest chance we can get out of the current unsustainable position, we might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb! Let's see how OxVox get on when they meet. I agree we could not keep on as we were and I've been posting along those lines on RageOn for a couple of years. That doesn't mean go all out for broke and risk the future of the club by trying to buy success though. I truly hope the new owners do make money out of a potential land deal, provided that OUFC benefit as well. But that is relatively a long shot. There are other ways of getting out of the hole without risking the future or at least minimising the risk.
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Post by foley on Jul 21, 2014 10:44:42 GMT
I am not sure that Ashton has suggested that the player budget will be £250K a year more than last seasons?
I may be wrong but took it more that the budget would be £250K more than the budget was going to be under IL. He supposedly was going to allow GW one more player, so the payroll under IL would be significantly less than last seasons (taking Beano, Smalley, Rigg, Davies, Connelly, Wroe into account)
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:45:55 GMT
I am not sure that Ashton has suggested that the player budget will be £250K a year more than last seasons? I may be wrong but took it more that the budget would be £250K more than the budget was going to be under IL. He supposedly was going to allow GW one more player, so the payroll under IL would be significantly less than last seasons (taking Beano, Smalley, Rigg, Davies, Connelly, Wroe into account) That's not correct. IL was going to apply the same budget in 2014/15 as was applied in 2013/14. There is a video interview with Ashton available on the net where he was asked about the playing budget and he confirmed he would allow it to be increased by £250k.
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Post by sihath on Jul 21, 2014 10:46:05 GMT
Even if he is on more, how much more? If Kitson goes we could probably afford to get Ferguson out of retirement! You can add at least one nought to the end. Kitson may not be leaving. Even if he does go, his wages are big but not that big, and the money would almost certainly go into the playing budget as Eales has already said he wants the playing budget increased by £250k. Even if Kitson does go, we don't save his wages as he has another year of contract left to run, which OUFC would have to pay for. That would result in even more losses. I don't think so. If Kitson decides to retire then we stop paying his wages.
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Post by yellowg on Jul 21, 2014 10:48:16 GMT
All I want the club to achieve is to allow me to ENJOY and look forward to watching my beloved OUFC. I am a supporter, I love football, I am ready to spend money, but a month ago we were dead in the water. I need to see a level of ambition to give me hope. We live in a world full of options now. Last season, a trip to IKEA with the missus and a 1.00 hot dog was more desirable at times than going to The Kassam.
I would be more worried if the model we had before Eales and co was sustainable - it wasn't.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:48:33 GMT
You can add at least one nought to the end. Kitson may not be leaving. Even if he does go, his wages are big but not that big, and the money would almost certainly go into the playing budget as Eales has already said he wants the playing budget increased by £250k. Even if Kitson does go, we don't save his wages as he has another year of contract left to run, which OUFC would have to pay for. That would result in even more losses. I don't think so. If Kitson decides to retire then we stop paying his wages. But why would Kitson decide to retire when he can have another year of wages? The only way Kitson would retire is if his contract was paid up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 10:50:26 GMT
I don't think so. If Kitson decides to retire then we stop paying his wages. But why would Kitson decide to retire when he can have another year of wages? The only way Kitson would retire is if his contract was paid up. To get those wages he will have to make himself available for training and selection. If he doesn't then he's in breach and no wages would be due. It maybe that he just can't be arsed anymore and a mutual parting of ways is in everyone's best interest.
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Post by Robin Shater on Jul 21, 2014 10:50:53 GMT
OxVox meeting Mr Ashton and Mr Eales tomorrow, obviously some big questions will be asked and I expect they will answer honestly to them all. Mr Ashton, to date, has been open and honest during the brief discussions we have had. Hopefully this meeting will be positive and productive. But it is possible that Mr Ashton and Mr Eales will only be as open and honest as they 'need' to be, after all, wasn't IL seen by many as open and honest?
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jul 21, 2014 10:51:34 GMT
All I want the club to achieve is to allow me to ENJOY and look forward to watching my beloved OUFC. I am a supporter, I love football, I am ready to spend money, but a month ago we were dead in the water. I need to see a level of ambition to give me hope. We live in a world full of options now. Last season, a trip to IKEA with the missus and a 1.00 hot dog was more desirable at times than going to The Kassam. I would be more worried if the model we had before Eales and co was sustainable - it wasn't. We all want to enjoy and have hope for the future yellowg. I am sure you would not want us to read into your post that you want the club to spend money to create that hope, only for the club to be bankrupt a year or so later and no longer even exist. Enjoyment and hope needs to come from building the club slowly and steadily, so that success is lasting, rather than demanding it be done here and now.
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