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Post by flean on Nov 27, 2017 10:27:52 GMT
The problem is though that 27 countries all agreed on a tactic. Made it 100% clear from the start. Now it's their problem that the 3rd biggest one that's flouncing off in a huff are so confused they don't know how to flounce off? Yes but Ireland are now making demands that are unacceptable and moving the goalposts. In the same spirit I reckon our Govt should demand that Ireland raise their Corporation Tax to 35% and pay reparations for allowing the IRA to operate from its territory. Not sure the UK govt are in a position to demand anything from anyone. Well, maybe the terms of a trade deal with Zanzibar.
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Post by ian on Nov 27, 2017 10:54:01 GMT
The problem is though that 27 countries all agreed on a tactic. Made it 100% clear from the start. Now it's their problem that the 3rd biggest one that's flouncing off in a huff are so confused they don't know how to flounce off? Yes but Ireland are now making demands that are unacceptable and moving the goalposts. In the same spirit I reckon our Govt should demand that Ireland raise their Corporation Tax to 35% and pay reparations for allowing the IRA to operate from its territory. How have Ireland moved the Irish border? It's a well established problem, one that the EU had solved... But now we've decided to year up a key element if a peace agreement - and blame others... What is the solution to the problem? A physical border across Ireland that's unacceptable to the Republicans, or a sea border that's unacceptable to the unionists/DUP. It's an internal UK problem that the UK expects the other EU nations to provide a miracle solution to...
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Post by whingit on Nov 27, 2017 13:01:16 GMT
The reunification of Ireland could finally be a possibility.
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Post by flean on Nov 27, 2017 13:20:56 GMT
The reunification of Ireland could finally be a possibility. Duckit from the Loyalists on here
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Post by unification on Nov 27, 2017 14:01:24 GMT
The reunification of Ireland could finally be a possibility. Duckit from the Loyalists on here I can't wait for Saddletramp and Ox4Eva's contributions. Measured, on-the-fence musings I imagine.
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Post by Marked Ox on Nov 27, 2017 16:47:28 GMT
Yes but Ireland are now making demands that are unacceptable and moving the goalposts. In the same spirit I reckon our Govt should demand that Ireland raise their Corporation Tax to 35% and pay reparations for allowing the IRA to operate from its territory. How have Ireland moved the Irish border? It's a well established problem, one that the EU had solved... But now we've decided to year up a key element if a peace agreement - and blame others... What is the solution to the problem? A physical border across Ireland that's unacceptable to the Republicans, or a sea border that's unacceptable to the unionists/DUP. It's an internal UK problem that the UK expects the other EU nations to provide a miracle solution to... Who said Ireland had moved the border? Ireland are demanding guarantees on the border and UK Govt policy around. That can't be given until trade negotiations are underway and reasonably clear what will likely be agreed as that will be a key part of it. As somebody who is pro-remain there is no way a UK Govt can agree to that. It is as much an Irish problem and therefore an EU one.
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Post by flean on Nov 27, 2017 17:25:30 GMT
How have Ireland moved the Irish border? It's a well established problem, one that the EU had solved... But now we've decided to year up a key element if a peace agreement - and blame others... What is the solution to the problem? A physical border across Ireland that's unacceptable to the Republicans, or a sea border that's unacceptable to the unionists/DUP. It's an internal UK problem that the UK expects the other EU nations to provide a miracle solution to... Who said Ireland had moved the border? Ireland are demanding guarantees on the border and UK Govt policy around. That can't be given until trade negotiations are underway and reasonably clear what will likely be agreed as that will be a key part of it. As somebody who is pro-remain there is no way a UK Govt can agree to that. It is as much an Irish problem and therefore an EU one. Of course they are demanding guarantees on the border!! Would you expect them to be fine with a massive new wall? Don't be lazy and say something completely random about the IRA again.
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Post by Marked Ox on Nov 27, 2017 17:36:20 GMT
Who said Ireland had moved the border? Ireland are demanding guarantees on the border and UK Govt policy around. That can't be given until trade negotiations are underway and reasonably clear what will likely be agreed as that will be a key part of it. As somebody who is pro-remain there is no way a UK Govt can agree to that. It is as much an Irish problem and therefore an EU one. Of course they are demanding guarantees on the border!! Would you expect them to be fine with a massive new wall? Don't be lazy and say something completely random about the IRA again. Our Govt should demand Ireland leave the EU, that would solve the problem as that is the equivalent to the Irish comments. I don't expect them to be happy with the situation but their demands for guarantees before substantive talks on trade is ridiculous considering how interlinked they are and their threatening to veto them starting is equally so. What is difficult to understand about that point especially as they will potentially be hurting their own economy considerably?
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Post by flean on Nov 27, 2017 17:43:36 GMT
Of course they are demanding guarantees on the border!! Would you expect them to be fine with a massive new wall? Don't be lazy and say something completely random about the IRA again. Our Govt should demand Ireland leave the EU, that would solve the problem as that is the equivalent to the Irish comments. I don't expect them to be happy with the situation but their demands for guarantees before substantive talks on trade is ridiculous considering how interlinked they are and their threatening to veto them starting is equally so. What is difficult to understand about that point especially as they will potentially be hurting their own economy considerably? Once again, it has been an EU (27 countries) demand from the start, not just an Irish demand. The UK govt has no power to demand anything I'm sorry to repeat to you.
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Post by Marked Ox on Nov 27, 2017 17:59:54 GMT
Our Govt should demand Ireland leave the EU, that would solve the problem as that is the equivalent to the Irish comments. I don't expect them to be happy with the situation but their demands for guarantees before substantive talks on trade is ridiculous considering how interlinked they are and their threatening to veto them starting is equally so. What is difficult to understand about that point especially as they will potentially be hurting their own economy considerably? Once again, it has been an EU (27 countries) demand from the start, not just an Irish demand. The UK govt has no power to demand anything I'm sorry to repeat to you. Just as the Irish demands are powerless in reality unless they really want to damage their own economy. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-sufficient-progress-michel-barnier-eu-next-few-days-estonia-a8078351.htmlBarnier seems to think the next step in the negotiations is looking likely. So it will just be the Irish then. Do you really think the UK Govt can give assurances without knowing a massive part of the equation involved? Edit: Oh, and do you really think the Poles or Italians care about the Irish border?
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Post by essexyellows on Nov 27, 2017 18:21:19 GMT
Ever so easy.......... hand back that useless bit of the North of Ireland to the south.
Walk away from the EU in December.
Spend the time sorting stuff out with the rest of the world and the growing economies of our former "Pink Bits".
Job done....time for tiffin.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Nov 27, 2017 18:35:32 GMT
Offer repatriation to NI residents and give the rest to Ireland.
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Post by tonyw on Nov 27, 2017 18:44:41 GMT
Our Govt should demand Ireland leave the EU, that would solve the problem as that is the equivalent to the Irish comments. I don't expect them to be happy with the situation but their demands for guarantees before substantive talks on trade is ridiculous considering how interlinked they are and their threatening to veto them starting is equally so. What is difficult to understand about that point especially as they will potentially be hurting their own economy considerably? Once again, it has been an EU (27 countries) demand from the start, not just an Irish demand. The UK govt has no power to demand anything I'm sorry to repeat to you. Have to say - again from the position of a staunch remainer - that I also think Fox has a point on this one. If you're the British government and you're being asked, now, for your stance on the Irish border - well the ideal option is that we won't need a hard border there because by the time we leave, we'll have agreed a broad free trade deal that removes any need for tariffs or custom inspections at that border. The border, from a customs perspective at least, only becomes an issue if the UK doesn't have free, unrestricted trade with the EU. So how really can the UK be expected to come up with a proposal for the Irish border when they don't know what the trading relationship with the EU is going to be? It doesn't make sense to explore those two issues in isolation because they are fundamentally, unavoidably connected. Now on the rights of EU citizens living in the UK, and the UK's financial contribution to cover existing commitments - absolutely, there's no reason why those can't be resolved first before talks on the future relationship. But on Ireland - I can't see how you can expect to do anything more than make broad statements and platitudes at this point; detailed policy isn't possible except as part of a bigger picture (or maybe, an extensive and mostly pointless flow chart of all the possibilities).
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Nov 27, 2017 19:07:46 GMT
I honestly can't imagine how the Irish border question is going to be solved. You can't have a completely open border between the EU and the UK, but practically (and probably historically as well) speaking, you can't have border posts etc there either. And somehow having an open border with controls between NI and the rest of the UK is a non-starter.
Just another example that goes to show what a well-thought out process this has been from minute one! As far as I can see, absolutely nothing has yet been achieved.
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Post by whingit on Nov 27, 2017 19:32:11 GMT
Senior Brexiteers will just push for a no deal Brexit and then say to Ireland that if they want border controls, they can sort it out. I'd be tempted to predict that there will be a referendum in the North of Ireland within the next 5-10 years.
Just remember that whatever problems arise from Brexit will not be the fault of Brexit, they will always find something else to blame.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Nov 27, 2017 21:50:28 GMT
Senior Brexiteers will just push for a no deal Brexit and then say to Ireland that if they want border controls, they can sort it out. I'd be tempted to predict that there will be a referendum in the North of Ireland within the next 5-10 years. Just remember that whatever problems arise from Brexit will not be the fault of Brexit, they will always find something else to blame. But will you still be crying about it in 10 years?
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Post by whingit on Nov 27, 2017 22:31:53 GMT
Senior Brexiteers will just push for a no deal Brexit and then say to Ireland that if they want border controls, they can sort it out. I'd be tempted to predict that there will be a referendum in the North of Ireland within the next 5-10 years. Just remember that whatever problems arise from Brexit will not be the fault of Brexit, they will always find something else to blame. But will you still be crying about it in 10 years? Brexit itself isn't too much of a problem for me. The incompetence of the government is what I take issue with, as well as the mindset of a chunk of leave voters.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Nov 28, 2017 13:11:44 GMT
The North of Ireland cannot even agree on a devolved Govt structure at the moment, let along thinking about agreeing on a referendum and the wording. I cannot see a referendum on any horizon at all. Just a thought
It looks the Republics coalition is going to collapse and Merkel cannot find a coalition partner either. And Macron is finding the French Unions aren't for turning and Austria are going mad. Makes the UK look a little more normal doesn't it?
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Post by flean on Nov 28, 2017 18:15:30 GMT
The North of Ireland cannot even agree on a devolved Govt structure at the moment, let along thinking about agreeing on a referendum and the wording. I cannot see a referendum on any horizon at all. Just a thought It looks the Republics coalition is going to collapse and Merkel cannot find a coalition partner either. And Macron is finding the French Unions aren't for turning and Austria are going mad. Makes the UK look a little more normal doesn't it? No-one else is committing a very embarrassing, drawn out suicide sorry Gary.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Nov 28, 2017 20:26:47 GMT
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Post by flean on Nov 28, 2017 21:11:36 GMT
Looks like they're willing to keep exact numbers quiet to help May, too. How many years till the magical 350m a week is freed up I wonder?
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Post by flean on Nov 28, 2017 21:16:58 GMT
The comments under that article are predictably genius. "£45bn, purely to move talks on a bit. OBSCENE waste of taxpayers¿ money. Where¿s the promise by EU of tariff free trade? Where¿s the promise we¿ll get a good deal for that money? BREAKING NEWS: We¿re never going to get one. This was the EU plan all along, to shaft us for as much as they could get before chewing us up and spitting us out and our PATHETIC UK government fell for it." Being a personal fave.
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Post by whingit on Nov 28, 2017 21:28:13 GMT
The comments under that article are predictably genius. "£45bn, purely to move talks on a bit. OBSCENE waste of taxpayers¿ money. Where¿s the promise by EU of tariff free trade? Where¿s the promise we¿ll get a good deal for that money? BREAKING NEWS: We¿re never going to get one. This was the EU plan all along, to shaft us for as much as they could get before chewing us up and spitting us out and our PATHETIC UK government fell for it." Being a personal fave. Essexyellows is that you?
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Post by Gary Baldi on Nov 28, 2017 21:32:44 GMT
The North of Ireland cannot even agree on a devolved Govt structure at the moment, let along thinking about agreeing on a referendum and the wording. I cannot see a referendum on any horizon at all. Just a thought It looks the Republics coalition is going to collapse and Merkel cannot find a coalition partner either. And Macron is finding the French Unions aren't for turning and Austria are going mad. Makes the UK look a little more normal doesn't it? No-one else is committing a very embarrassing, drawn out suicide sorry Gary. Because they can't plan for that long in Germany or Ireland. New elections ahoy! Never did I think Maybots position would look more secure than dear old Merkel's. Next, someone will tell me that a businessman is the President of America and he'll call Kim Jong Un short and fat on Twitter...
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Post by Gary Baldi on Nov 28, 2017 21:37:21 GMT
50m? Wow, that's a good deal isn't it?
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Post by flean on Nov 28, 2017 21:57:34 GMT
50m? Wow, that's a good deal isn't it? A good deal for whom? If it's what the UK owes then it's fair for everyone. Johnson and Gove appear to have gone a bit quiet recently.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Nov 28, 2017 22:04:26 GMT
50m or 50bn? 50m is a friggin steal right?
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Post by peterdev on Nov 28, 2017 22:11:07 GMT
I£50billion is an enormous amount of money. Are we going to be told how they arrive at this figure? And when we are expected to pay it. As for the Ireland situation it looks a nightmare to resolve. On the face of it looks like we need a border like we had before. I've always thought it should have been a united Ireland a hundred years ago, but better late than never
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Nov 29, 2017 4:46:04 GMT
50m or 50bn? 50m is a friggin steal right? My bad: £50Bn. Or 157x £350M which could be used to fund the NHS instead. So that's the divorce deal settled. How much will UK have to pay for single-market access rights?
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Post by Gary Baldi on Nov 29, 2017 9:01:06 GMT
50m or 50bn? 50m is a friggin steal right? My bad: £50Bn. Or 157x £350M which could be used to fund the NHS instead. So that's the divorce deal settled. How much will UK have to pay for single-market access rights? I heard some talking head last week explain that one Brexiteer in the Cabinet had thought the bill was broken down as: - 2 years of full membership as part of the transition deal - £24 billion
- With a further payment of £20 billion to settle various commitments
I cannot substantiate this (pinch of salt, etc, etc), but it does make sense why both sides would find it acceptable to move onto the next stage. Let's see on trade -both need each other on that one.
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