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Post by flean on Dec 7, 2017 16:27:37 GMT
From the Telegraph. The head of Germany's Social Democrats, Martin Schulz, a potential future governing partner of Chancellor Angela Merkel, called Thursday for the creation of a "United States of Europe" by 2025.
Schulz delivered a passionate plea for a more united and federal Europe at an SPD party congress that was due to decide whether his centre-left party will enter exploratory talks to form a new coalition government with Merkel.
"I want a European constitutional treaty that creates a federal Europe", said Schulz, the former European parliament president, proposing a written convention involving civil society and citizens.
The treaty would then be presented to all member states for ratification, with those that reject it automatically leaving the bloc, Schulz proposed in a speech at a Berlin meeting of some 600 delegates.
He suggested a target year of 2025, one century after the SPD first spoke of a future "United States of Europe".
Thank God virtually noone voted for him recently.
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Post by flean on Dec 7, 2017 16:29:30 GMT
Corbyn couldn't be much worse. We have had bad governments for years. First we had Blair the warmonger. Then Brown who sold our gold reserves off cheap. Then Cameron who throws his toys out the pram when he calls a referendum and gets the result he doesn't want. After that we get May, who instead of starting negotiations calls an election to strengthen her hand, and it does the opposite. With a Corbyn government in waiting I think many of us are dreading what might be coming next. We need a strong leader for this country and its many years since we had one Corbyn is a true socialist who wants to have a full state control of everything. He'll promise to give things away to the youth in return for their vote and then radically change our economy. Who knows if it'll work but i remember the winter of discontent and do not want to go back to those dark days. Trouble is the current conservative government are paving the way for his election, and doesn't seem to be much anyone can do to stop it... Full state control of everything? Really? I'd say Corbyn would be pretty much centre left in Germany. He'd fit in well with the SPD, which highlights how far right the UK has gone.
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Post by pooshooter on Dec 8, 2017 9:44:07 GMT
Corbyn is a true socialist who wants to have a full state control of everything. He'll promise to give things away to the youth in return for their vote and then radically change our economy. Who knows if it'll work but i remember the winter of discontent and do not want to go back to those dark days. Trouble is the current conservative government are paving the way for his election, and doesn't seem to be much anyone can do to stop it... Full state control of everything? Really? I'd say Corbyn would be pretty much centre left in Germany. He'd fit in well with the SPD, which highlights how far right the UK has gone. He has seduced you...
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Post by flean on Dec 8, 2017 10:57:36 GMT
Full state control of everything? Really? I'd say Corbyn would be pretty much centre left in Germany. He'd fit in well with the SPD, which highlights how far right the UK has gone. He has seduced you... Better that than be seduced by ukip or the Conservatives
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Post by pooshooter on Dec 8, 2017 11:07:12 GMT
Better that than be seduced by ukip or the Conservatives I was last interested in politics when a teenager in the 80's. Now the only one who seduces me is my good missus, and she still gets my juices going...
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Post by Yellow River on Dec 8, 2017 11:38:18 GMT
Well it looks as if Theresa May has cleared the first hurdle. The rabid remainers aren’t happy and the rabid leavers aren’t happy either, so probably the best that May could hope to achieve.
As I understand it the UK is leaving the single market and customs union. The role of the European Court of Justice is time limited, and the DUP have agreed the Irish border issue.
The EU can now accelerate plans for a Federal United States of Europe.
Trade talks to start now so plenty of negotiating still to be done, but at least it’s a start. Although as we keep being told “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 8, 2017 13:17:24 GMT
Well it looks as if Theresa May has cleared the first hurdle. The rabid remainers aren’t happy and the rabid leavers aren’t happy either, so probably the best that May could hope to achieve.As I understand it the UK is leaving the single market and customs union. The role of the European Court of Justice is time limited, and the DUP have agreed the Irish border issue. The EU can now accelerate plans for a Federal United States of Europe. Trade talks to start now so plenty of negotiating still to be done, but at least it’s a start. Although as we keep being told “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” And that's it. It won't be easy, but some of the outside agitators are clearly unhappy progress has been made. Politically, Labour (rightly) were hoping for a disaster as it would further pressure Maybot into an election. Today makes that a dimmer reality. Farage isn't happy but his tone has slightly changed over the past few hours. We can now get on with the hard part.
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Post by Marked Ox on Dec 8, 2017 14:33:50 GMT
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Post by tonyw on Dec 8, 2017 18:00:46 GMT
Well it looks as if Theresa May has cleared the first hurdle. The rabid remainers aren’t happy and the rabid leavers aren’t happy either, so probably the best that May could hope to achieve. Honestly, I'm not sure about this - if you asked the whole UK population before June 2016 whether they would have been happy with the arrangement we're getting to - i.e. Britain out of the EU and customs union, but still obligated to maintain customs alignment with the EU to avoid a hard Irish border; tens of millions being paid by the UK to the EU for sunk costs; and the EU Court of Justice still having influence in UK legal matters, at least regarding EU citizens, for another 8 years - then I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been a single person that said "Yep, that's the solution I'm after". Noone would have been happy with that. Now Brexiteers would've been happier with that than remaining, and Remainers would've been happier with that than a Hard Brexit. But noone would look upon that as a good solution.....just a wishy-washy compromise. Usually I'm all for compromise and pragmatism, but if the overall solution is something that noone wants - is it really worth it? I'm a "rabid remainer" but I think I would have respected May & co. more if they'd said " **** it, we're going to walk away and do our own thing. Short term, the financial consequences are going to be brutal - and so is the Irish situation - but we believe in Britain and we'll make it through and come out the other side stronger and more independent". Instead they're negotiating in fear of the negative consequences of Brexit, and in doing so aren't delivering true independence for the UK from the EU.
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Post by Yellow River on Dec 8, 2017 19:04:31 GMT
Well it looks as if Theresa May has cleared the first hurdle. The rabid remainers aren’t happy and the rabid leavers aren’t happy either, so probably the best that May could hope to achieve. . I'm a "rabid remainer" but I think I would have respected May & co. more if they'd said " **** it, we're going to walk away and do our own thing. Short term, the financial consequences are going to be brutal - and so is the Irish situation - but we believe in Britain and we'll make it through and come out the other side stronger and more independent". The two most powerful people in the government are the PM and Chancellor both are remainers so that scenario was always highly unlikely.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Dec 8, 2017 19:08:42 GMT
Corbyn is a true socialist who wants to have a full state control of everything. He'll promise to give things away to the youth in return for their vote and then radically change our economy. Who knows if it'll work but i remember the winter of discontent and do not want to go back to those dark days. Trouble is the current conservative government are paving the way for his election, and doesn't seem to be much anyone can do to stop it... Full state control of everything? Really? I'd say Corbyn would be pretty much centre left in Germany. He'd fit in well with the SPD, which highlights how far right the UK has gone. 'Far right' with one of the (if not, the) most supportive welfare and healthcare systems in the world? Liberal justice system, regulated economy, relatively minor corruption problem, functioning democracy and perhaps some of the strongest employment and human rights laws in the world. Please Flean, please explain to me how this country is far right.
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Post by whingit on Dec 8, 2017 19:38:16 GMT
Flean makes a point though. In a lot of Europe, Scandinavia especially, Corbyn wouldn't be seen as anything near far-left. We're definitely more conservative than those countries, not far-right, though.
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Post by Mark on Dec 8, 2017 20:19:04 GMT
I think the issue is that the Europe we joined in 1973 and the country we were then, is a lot different to the Europe we are a member of now, and the country we are now.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 8, 2017 22:07:08 GMT
Not sure what Fintan has been taking, but he believes we will stay in the single market and customs union. The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union. The last one will be a bit of stumbling block won't it once we leave...
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Post by flean on Dec 9, 2017 3:44:37 GMT
Full state control of everything? Really? I'd say Corbyn would be pretty much centre left in Germany. He'd fit in well with the SPD, which highlights how far right the UK has gone. 'Far right' with one of the (if not, the) most supportive welfare and healthcare systems in the world? Liberal justice system, regulated economy, relatively minor corruption problem, functioning democracy and perhaps some of the strongest employment and human rights laws in the world. Please Flean, please explain to me how this country is far right. Are you expecting a serious answer?
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Post by bashamwonderland on Dec 9, 2017 10:47:03 GMT
'Far right' with one of the (if not, the) most supportive welfare and healthcare systems in the world? Liberal justice system, regulated economy, relatively minor corruption problem, functioning democracy and perhaps some of the strongest employment and human rights laws in the world. Please Flean, please explain to me how this country is far right. Are you expecting a serious answer? I'm genuinely fascinated, unless your original statement was a joke and I didn't get it?
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Post by flean on Dec 9, 2017 12:20:08 GMT
Are you expecting a serious answer? I'm genuinely fascinated, unless your original statement was a joke and I didn't get it? Mate, I didn't say the UK is far right. I said the Corbyn bashing (sorry is a sign of how right the UK has gone recently. As mentioned before, Corbyn would be pretty middle of the road in a lot of European countries.
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Post by flean on Dec 9, 2017 12:34:39 GMT
Am relieved that things are moving finally and that millions of people have a bit more security in their lives. Gonna have to give May a bit of credit, she seemed to have got a result from a very tricky situation.
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Post by ian on Dec 9, 2017 12:48:46 GMT
The people buying mist tabloid political pamphlets are exposed to, and accept, opinions that are "far right". Though in truth, they are buying/accepting opinions that are xenophobic, full of hatred, and forwarding the ideas of the super-rich, the people who own these propaganda channels.
The opinions is Hopkins, Lawson, etc being pushed forward, whilst the achievements of our scientists, working in collaboration with scientists from all over the EU are largely ignored. Any story twisted to make people born in this island believe that they are superior to those born elsewhere and that foreigners are stealing some entitlement they are due for having been born on this island.
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Post by peterdev on Dec 9, 2017 15:00:34 GMT
Glad things moving forward flean? We are still paying out near £50billion. And to be subjected to the European courts for nearly ten years. Doesn't look like a compromise to me. Looks more like a complete cave in. I notice Corbyn has kept quiet on what he would have been prepared to offer
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Post by flean on Dec 9, 2017 15:53:16 GMT
Glad things moving forward flean? We are still paying out near £50billion. And to be subjected to the European courts for nearly ten years. Doesn't look like a compromise to me. Looks more like a complete cave in. I notice Corbyn has kept quiet on what he would have been prepared to offer Afternoon Peter. The payment is unavoidable isn't it? I'm very glad that people will keep their current rights. It seems fair to me. UK still leaving, but not a complete break off. Whether there is any point in any of it is another question.
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Post by foley on Dec 10, 2017 12:22:04 GMT
The people buying mist tabloid political pamphlets are exposed to, and accept, opinions that are "far right". Though in truth, they are buying/accepting opinions that are xenophobic, full of hatred, and forwarding the ideas of the super-rich, the people who own these propaganda channels. The opinions is Hopkins, Lawson, etc being pushed forward, whilst the achievements of our scientists, working in collaboration with scientists from all over the EU are largely ignored. Any story twisted to make people born in this island believe that they are superior to those born elsewhere and that foreigners are stealing some entitlement they are due for having been born on this island. Mmm. I agree with a lot of the sentiment. I would actually say that more appropriate really would be to suggest that our scientists work closely with scientists from the EU, India, Russia and from many parts of the World. As an example Oxford University has many scientists doing Masters degrees from all over the World. A number of those go on to work in spin offs from the University doing potentially incredible work. So whilst I don't deny that there is amazing work happening with EU collaborators, I would actually suggest that we should be working with all top scientists worldwide. In the great higher education we have in the UK that is one of our strengths and from what I see that seems to attract many worldwide scientists (which should not change regardless of how Brexit works out)
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Post by foley on Dec 10, 2017 12:27:26 GMT
So I may be being a little simplistic but as I see it the questions are:
- The UK is still, suggesting that we leave the Customs Union and the single market. - We want to negotiate a Trade Deal where there is as much flexibility as possible (so very few tariffs/ bureaucracy). - The Canada deal is a starting template (where tariffs have been dramatically reduced) - Services however have not been included in the Canadian deal and will have to be added. - IF something like that could be achieved then maybe this could avoid the 'hard border' (which is the difficult thing remaining)
It could also enable the UK to have its own trade deals with other Countries independent of the EU.
I am sure that it won't be quite that easy, but it does appear to be a good starting point?
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Post by foley on Dec 10, 2017 12:32:06 GMT
Glad things moving forward flean? We are still paying out near £50billion. And to be subjected to the European courts for nearly ten years. Doesn't look like a compromise to me. Looks more like a complete cave in. I notice Corbyn has kept quiet on what he would have been prepared to offer Afternoon Peter. The payment is unavoidable isn't it? I'm very glad that people will keep their current rights. It seems fair to me. UK still leaving, but not a complete break off. Whether there is any point in any of it is another question. Agree totally with regard to people keeping their current rights. That is the only fair way forwards in my view. I am not sure that the payment and lack of complete break is that definite though? IF we get out of the customs union and the single market that would be a pretty big break (even if there is a transitional period where the EUCJ has some declining influence?) The Trade deal in my view has always been the major issue (with the Ireland problem) . The EU agreement with Canada is very interesting as if that included services, it could be the basis of a starting point for any trade deal.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 10, 2017 13:25:33 GMT
We cannot remain in the single market and leave the EU. It's, rightly, not possible otherwise there would be no point in every being a member of such a insular group.
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Post by flean on Dec 10, 2017 13:49:48 GMT
We cannot remain in the single market and leave the EU. It's, rightly, not possible otherwise there would be no point in every being a member of such a insular group. Of course it is possible. Take Norway (or is it Switzerland?) It would just involve having to do it under the Eu's terms. This is where the referendum was a complete sham. The question should have been "should the UK remain or leave the EU, single market and customs union". That wouldve made it more black or white.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 10, 2017 14:04:31 GMT
We cannot remain in the single market and leave the EU. It's, rightly, not possible otherwise there would be no point in every being a member of such a insular group. Of course it is possible. Take Norway (or is it Switzerland?) It would just involve having to do it under the Eu's terms. This is where the referendum was a complete sham. The question should have been "should the UK remain or leave the EU, single market and customs union". That wouldve made it more black or white. I think that would have been a more confusing debate and a hell of lot murkier to negotiate on. As such, it's a fey sleight of hand to ask that question. Leave or remain was the right question because it gave a definitive answer, except if you are Europhile because it left no wiggle room for back door politicking. It's all a moot point though isn't it?
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Post by flean on Dec 10, 2017 14:55:10 GMT
Of course it is possible. Take Norway (or is it Switzerland?) It would just involve having to do it under the Eu's terms. This is where the referendum was a complete sham. The question should have been "should the UK remain or leave the EU, single market and customs union". That wouldve made it more black or white. I think that would have been a more confusing debate and a hell of lot murkier to negotiate on. As such, it's a fey sleight of hand to ask that question. Leave or remain was the right question because it gave a definitive answer, except if you are Europhile because it left no wiggle room for back door politicking. It's all a moot point though isn't it? Leaving the EU doesn't by definition mean leaving the single market and customs union (as shown by the leave campaign highlighting Norway and Switzerland as potential models). The Brexiteer "It's a moot point, shut up and accept it" doesn't look too pretty btw
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