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Post by Beav on Feb 13, 2011 17:48:20 GMT
I know people say England aren't creating that much talent but I'm very optimistic about the next few world cups. 2014 and 2018 especially. The oldest from below in 4 years will be 26/27 and by 2018 WC will be 30/31. (23 years old) Joe Hart(20 years old) Martin Kelly(18 years old) Phil Jones [He looks bloody immense, cannot wait till he recovers from injury](21 years old) Chris Smalling [He WILL be future England captain](21 years old) Kieran Gibbs(17 years old) Jack Robinson Another Liverpudlian defender.](21 years old) James Tomkins(20 years old) Jordan Henderson(19 years old) Jack Rodwell(19 years old) Jack Wilshere(17 years old) Josh McEachran [Oxfordshire Lad!](21 years old) Marc Albrighton (23 years old) Adam Johnson(17 years old) Alex Oxlaide-Chamberlain(16 years old) Raheem Sterling [Courtesy of Dougie07](22 years old) Andy Carroll(17 years old) Connor Wickham(20 years old) Danny WelbeckThat's not even all of the possible candidates en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-21_football_team#Current_squaden.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-21_football_team#Recent_call-upsWe've got some class to come through. Give them experience and a helping hand and we can really make a world class team.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 13, 2011 18:00:59 GMT
Nice to know someone is still mad enough to be optimistic about England.
Call my cynical but 20+ years of disappointment have taught me never to expect anything other than the same from an england side.
I'm beyond believing its up to the players we have, its just the fact we are doomed to be sh!t. If it was suddenly discovered the entire barcelona side were english I reckon they's still win f#ck all in a white shirt.
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Post by Beav on Feb 13, 2011 18:12:52 GMT
I'm still young and naive! Stop corrupting me!
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Post by baldy on Feb 13, 2011 19:11:00 GMT
I know people say England aren't creating that much talent but I'm very optimistic about the next few world cups. 2014 and 2018 especially. The oldest from below in 4 years will be 26/27 and by 2018 WC will be 30/31. (23 years old) Joe Hart(20 years old) Martin Kelly(18 years old) Phil Jones [He looks bloody immense, cannot wait till he recovers from injury](21 years old) Chris Smalling [He WILL be future England captain](21 years old) Kieran Gibbs(20 years old) Jordan Henderson(19 years old) Jack Rodwell(19 years old) Jack Wilshere(17 years old) Josh McEachran [Oxfordshire Lad!](21 years old) Marc Albrighton (23 years old) Adam Johnson(17 years old) Alex Oxlaide-Chamberlain(22 years old) Andy Carroll(17 years old) Connor Wickham(20 years old) Danny WelbeckThat's not even all of the possible candidates en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-21_football_team#Current_squaden.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-21_football_team#Recent_call-upsWe've got some class to come through. Give them experience and a helping hand and we can really make a world class team. You could say the same at just about every stage over the past 50 years. 10 or 12 years ago we had the likes of Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole and Lampard emerging and we've done nothing on the world stage. I dont see the players you talk about as being any better than the lot, in fact I'd say the quality right now is probably less than it has been at a lot of times since our last success. Problem is I'm sure Brazil, Spain, Germany, Italy, Argentina could reel off 20 wonderkids too. The usual hype will surround every forthcoming championship but I wont be holding my breath.
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Post by Beav on Feb 13, 2011 19:20:45 GMT
I can still dream
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Post by Simon Lill on Feb 13, 2011 19:22:00 GMT
I know people say England aren't creating that much talent but I'm very optimistic about the next few world cups. 2014 and 2018 especially. The oldest from below in 4 years will be 26/27 and by 2018 WC will be 30/31. (23 years old) Joe Hart(20 years old) Martin Kelly(18 years old) Phil Jones [He looks bloody immense, cannot wait till he recovers from injury](21 years old) Chris Smalling [He WILL be future England captain](21 years old) Kieran Gibbs(20 years old) Jordan Henderson(19 years old) Jack Rodwell(19 years old) Jack Wilshere(17 years old) Josh McEachran [Oxfordshire Lad!](21 years old) Marc Albrighton (23 years old) Adam Johnson(17 years old) Alex Oxlaide-Chamberlain(22 years old) Andy Carroll(17 years old) Connor Wickham(20 years old) Danny WelbeckThat's not even all of the possible candidates en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-21_football_team#Current_squaden.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_under-21_football_team#Recent_call-upsWe've got some class to come through. Give them experience and a helping hand and we can really make a world class team. You could say the same at just about every stage over the past 50 years. 10 or 12 years ago we had the likes of Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole and Lampard emerging and we've done nothing on the world stage. I dont see the players you talk about as being any better than the lot, in fact I'd say the quality right now is probably less than it has been at a lot of times since our last success. Problem is I'm sure Brazil, Spain, Germany, Italy, Argentina could reel off 20 wonderkids too. The usual hype will surround every forthcoming championship but I wont be holding my breath. Agreed. Owen, Beckham, Lampard, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole(s). Even Shearer, Sheringham...Scholes etc etc etc It's one thing to be great on paper, history proves it's something completely different to be great AND competitive in the England shirt. We'll continue to fail until we address the issues with the game at the highest level. Most importantly in my opinion the arrogant attitude of the players, the archaic management of the FA and the lack of Englishmen in the league overall.
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Post by sihath on Feb 13, 2011 19:23:14 GMT
It's an impressive list. but at the moment most of it is just potential.
Football fans love to talk up the next big thing. Smalling, Wilshere, Welbeck. If you listened to forums like this you'd think they were already worldbeaters.
We believe the hype surrounding the Premier League. Sure it's exciting, but when it comes to the best in Europe in the European Cup, and the world in internationals, we don't quite have the quality to win consistently.
Going back to the late 70's through to the mid 80's English teams won the European cup year after year. And that was with teams that were almost entirely British, with one or two europeans thrown in. And yet the England national team never went close to winning anything.
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Post by moobs on Feb 13, 2011 20:43:00 GMT
The problem with English players is they are brought up to play a very British style which is all about pace, directness and physicalility (is that a word?)
International football is a different kettle of fish where the pace is a lot slower and player technique and overall team play comes to the fore. This is where England get found out, our players are like fishes out of water and their lack of technical ability shows out and we end up looking a shambles.
Rooney is a classic example, looks a world beater in the premiership but a complete donkey in the world cup
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Post by oxyellow on Feb 13, 2011 21:06:21 GMT
After Jack Wilshere's performance last week, am very much loooking forward to seeing him play some more games.
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Post by Beav on Feb 13, 2011 22:05:09 GMT
The problem with English players is they are brought up to play a very British style which is all about pace, directness and physicalility (is that a word?) Rooney is a classic example, looks a world beater in the premiership but a complete donkey in the world cup Rooney was completely off form in the world cup. You're saying his goal at the weekend was all about pace, directness and physicality (which is a word). He is one of the most technically gifted forwards who you can only see through negative glasses. Back to the main point - I do agree with you. Which is one of my main reasons for being excited about this newest team. The midfield look really technically gifted and with some clinical finishers up front... who knows? Aah i'm too optimistic aren't I?
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Post by baldy on Feb 14, 2011 8:09:34 GMT
The problem with English players is they are brought up to play a very British style which is all about pace, directness and physicalility (is that a word?) International football is a different kettle of fish where the pace is a lot slower and player technique and overall team play comes to the fore. This is where England get found out, our players are like fishes out of water and their lack of technical ability shows out and we end up looking a shambles. Rooney is a classic example, looks a world beater in the premiership but a complete donkey in the world cup What a load of rubbish Moobs. Best tournament team in the past 50 years - Germany. Their game is as English as you will ever come across - uncompromising defenders, pace and power going forward. Systematic, one dimensional football with very little hint of pure, technical football. What are you on about ? Germany are living proof that the English way can succeed. I wouldn't say the Italians either have had their success with teams full of flair. They've won tournaments basically with resolute defences and snatched goals. You're getting off on Spain winning something for the first time in years and years. All their supposed flair and technical nous served them no better than good old English up and at 'em football until recently.
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Post by sihath on Feb 14, 2011 8:21:36 GMT
The problem with English players is they are brought up to play a very British style which is all about pace, directness and physicalility (is that a word?) International football is a different kettle of fish where the pace is a lot slower and player technique and overall team play comes to the fore. This is where England get found out, our players are like fishes out of water and their lack of technical ability shows out and we end up looking a shambles. Rooney is a classic example, looks a world beater in the premiership but a complete donkey in the world cup What a load of rubbish Moobs. Best tournament team in the past 50 years - Germany. Their game is as English as you will ever come across - uncompromising defenders, pace and power going forward. Systematic, one dimensional football with very little hint of pure, technical football. What are you on about ? Germany are living proof that the English way can succeed. I wouldn't say the Italians either have had their success with teams full of flair. They've won tournaments basically with resolute defences and snatched goals. You're getting off on Spain winning something for the first time in years and years. All their supposed flair and technical nous served them no better than good old English up and at 'em football until recently. No. Germany are proof that the German way can succeed. It's like English football but with better technique, and a team that plays as a team, NOT full of individuals who moan about being bored, moan about the fans and a manager who plays his favourites rather than those who are in form.
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Post by baldy on Feb 14, 2011 9:01:22 GMT
What a load of rubbish Moobs. Best tournament team in the past 50 years - Germany. Their game is as English as you will ever come across - uncompromising defenders, pace and power going forward. Systematic, one dimensional football with very little hint of pure, technical football. What are you on about ? Germany are living proof that the English way can succeed. I wouldn't say the Italians either have had their success with teams full of flair. They've won tournaments basically with resolute defences and snatched goals. You're getting off on Spain winning something for the first time in years and years. All their supposed flair and technical nous served them no better than good old English up and at 'em football until recently. No. Germany are proof that the German way can succeed. It's like English football but with better technique, and a team that plays as a team, NOT full of individuals who moan about being bored, moan about the fans and a manager who plays his favourites rather than those who are in form. The point I am making is that to say you only win things with flair and total football is poppycock. Teams who lack oodles of technical skill can easily win tournaments as Germany prove. I don't go with that 'only pick players in form' rubbish either. So you dont pick Rooney now because he's out of form but come the next England game he might be in form. You've then either wasted a game or you've got an obviously inferior partnership who just happen to be in form for their club. Terry, Lampard, Hart, Cole, Milner, Barry, Adam Johnson, Rooney are all patchy in their form so does that mean we drop the lot and start with, I dont know, Roger Johnson, Scott Parker, Albrighton and some left back at Bolton or Wigan who just happens to be in form ? A manager needs to identify those players he considers talented enough for international football and then work with them even if they aren't showing the best club form. You can't just go around dropping the likes of Rooney just because his club form is hit and miss. On that theory its unlikely a national manager would ever get a settled side.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 10:34:46 GMT
I think the Germans play more technical football than we do, but its not massively different
Back to the original post, I agree that we have some good prospects and while I also agree with Baldy that we've always had these supposed hot prospects, I think we might be starting to produce more technical players. These youngsters are the first generation to come through since the Premier league became very international. Wilshere and McEachran look like players much more suited to international football than Gerrard or Lampard, who are players limited in technical ability but very good in the fast paced domestic game..
Another one to add who has looked impressive recently is Daniel Sturridge.
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Post by moobs on Feb 14, 2011 10:59:10 GMT
Well Baldy I don't know if you watched the World Cup but England and Germany played eachother. I didn't notice any similarities whatsoever. One team passed the ball well with other players making themselves available and moving into space, keeping the ball well and getting it forward. The other team looked scared, panicked, disjointed and as though the players just met eachother that morning.
You might see 2 similar teams but all I see is chalk and cheese
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 11:07:51 GMT
To be fair, the main difference was that the Germans were younger, quicker, more confident and worked better as a team rather than better footballers. Germany were very good in the World Cup but they are not Spain. Ability-wise on an individual level they are not a million miles away from us and they show that the "pace and power" game can work if you play as a team.
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Post by KLYellow on Feb 14, 2011 11:33:45 GMT
I think club football has also something to do with it. As these players become "stars" for their clubs, earning huge salaries, getting Ferrari's, expensive clothes, WAGS and all the usual trappings, playing for England becomes almost a annoyance!
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Post by alessandro on Feb 14, 2011 11:39:35 GMT
Its a distinctly unimpressive list of talent and shows what the influx of foreign players and a failure to address grass roots issues has created for our future. I dont think we'll get past a quarter final in the next 10 years.
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Post by baldy on Feb 14, 2011 11:40:57 GMT
Well Baldy I don't know if you watched the World Cup but England and Germany played eachother. I didn't notice any similarities whatsoever. One team passed the ball well with other players making themselves available and moving into space, keeping the ball well and getting it forward. The other team looked scared, panicked, disjointed and as though the players just met eachother that morning. You might see 2 similar teams but all I see is chalk and cheese I saw two teams who looked to find their front men quickly and who were reliant on spreading the play as opposed to triangling their way through the opposition. The Germans executed it far better but the philosophy was near identical. Germany are strong and disciplined and have a couple of centre backs who would relish the Premiership. Ozil is the only really technically gifted player they have. Others like Schwienstieger, Muller, Klose and Lahm are typically English and reliant on power and pace as opposed to deft touch. God knows what you were watching.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 11:50:33 GMT
I think club football has also something to do with it. As these players become "stars" for their clubs, earning huge salaries, getting Ferrari's, expensive clothes, WAGS and all the usual trappings, playing for England becomes almost a annoyance! I've never bought that theory. Playing for your country is always an honour. Playing for their clubs is their day-to-day job. Our players want to play for England. No amount of money takes that away. The reasons for our failure are not that simple. The big salaries etc should surely affect other countries players as well?
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Post by Boogaloo on Feb 14, 2011 12:02:21 GMT
Until the FA's attitude changes things will never improve. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but in the last World Cup are players looked absolutely exhausted out there. Comparing us to Germany was a bit like comparing Oxford Utd to a pub side that had been out on the lash the night before. The difference in levels of fitness was obvious to see.
The only solution is a winter break, just like the rest of Europe have, but then again the FA won't do that because the Premier League is their biggest priority as it's a major cash cow for them.
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Post by sihath on Feb 14, 2011 12:15:07 GMT
Well Baldy I don't know if you watched the World Cup but England and Germany played eachother. I didn't notice any similarities whatsoever. One team passed the ball well with other players making themselves available and moving into space, keeping the ball well and getting it forward. The other team looked scared, panicked, disjointed and as though the players just met eachother that morning. You might see 2 similar teams but all I see is chalk and cheese I saw two teams who looked to find their front men quickly and who were reliant on spreading the play as opposed to triangling their way through the opposition. The Germans executed it far better but the philosophy was near identical. Germany are strong and disciplined and have a couple of centre backs who would relish the Premiership. Ozil is the only really technically gifted player they have. Others like Schwienstieger, Muller, Klose and Lahm are typically English and reliant on power and pace as opposed to deft touch. God knows what you were watching. The philosophy was the same/similar but the execution was the difference. I could argue that I look like Brad Pitt. Same number of arms and legs, similar hair colour, eye colour etc. I certainly look more like Brad Pitt than Eddie Murphy. But Angelina wouldn't be fooled. I'm not suggestion we try and copy the way the Spaniards play, or the Italians. But we need to work on and encourage our players to be far more comfortable on the ball.
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Post by sihath on Feb 14, 2011 12:17:32 GMT
Until the FA's attitude changes things will never improve. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but in the last World Cup are players looked absolutely exhausted out there. Comparing us to Germany was a bit like comparing Oxford Utd to a pub side that had been out on the lash the night before. The difference in levels of fitness was obvious to see. The only solution is a winter break, just like the rest of Europe have, but then again the FA won't do that because the Premier League is their biggest priority as it's a major cash cow for them. If we had a winter break all the clubs would fly off to the far/middle east and play friendlies. How about playing fewer Champions League matches? Make it knock out right from the start. What's that you say...... that means less money for the richest clubs in the world...... oh sorry that'll never happen then.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 12:21:14 GMT
I'm not sure the FA's attitude is wrong - they just don't have the power over the Premier League which they should have. Until that happens, there will continue to be a conflict of interest.
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Post by Jimmy P on Feb 14, 2011 12:29:23 GMT
I'm not sure the FA's attitude is wrong - they just don't have the power over the Premier League which they should have. Until that happens, there will continue to be a conflict of interest. I'm no lover of the premiershite but we cannot blame Englands woes on it - The premiership has only been around sine early 90's, yet we failed miserably in 1970, 1982, 1986. 1990 we had a reasonable amount of success but didn't even qualify in 74 and 78. I think there are 3 factors 1, Everyone loves to beat England and thus raise their game. 2, technically we are far behind the truly great nations and 3, English players for whatever reason do not perform well in tournaments (even when we have had some success 96+90 we have not played that convincingly throughout the tournament)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 12:33:46 GMT
I'm no lover of the premiershite but we cannot blame Englands woes on it - not entirely I agree But the FA should be in charge of the national game and address things that matter to football fans - like the failure of our national team at major tournaments. The fact that the Premier League operates outside the control of the FA cannot be a good thing and does not happen anywhere else to my knowledge.
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Post by junior1 on Feb 14, 2011 13:19:42 GMT
Did the German players have a winter break??
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Post by Boogaloo on Feb 14, 2011 13:35:44 GMT
Did the German players have a winter break?? Yep. The Bundesliga has a six week break from mid-December to the end of January. Also at the time of the tournament, all 23 players were playing for German sides.
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Post by moobs on Feb 14, 2011 13:52:54 GMT
Well Baldy I don't know if you watched the World Cup but England and Germany played eachother. I didn't notice any similarities whatsoever. One team passed the ball well with other players making themselves available and moving into space, keeping the ball well and getting it forward. The other team looked scared, panicked, disjointed and as though the players just met eachother that morning. You might see 2 similar teams but all I see is chalk and cheese I saw two teams who looked to find their front men quickly and who were reliant on spreading the play as opposed to triangling their way through the opposition. The Germans executed it far better but the philosophy was near identical. Germany are strong and disciplined and have a couple of centre backs who would relish the Premiership. Ozil is the only really technically gifted player they have. Others like Schwienstieger, Muller, Klose and Lahm are typically English and reliant on power and pace as opposed to deft touch. God knows what you were watching. I was watching a very one sided match where one team was technically inferior to the other. Philosophy? If England have a philosophy i'd love to know what it is. Answers on a postcard....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 14:10:05 GMT
We all saw it, moobs. But some of us are trying to debating WHY things went wrong whereas you seem to be just slagging off the players and manager and relishing it. It doesn't really add much to the debate.
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