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Post by hairy on Feb 14, 2011 14:12:21 GMT
I think the point that has been made a few times about England not really appearing to be a team is the most interesting one. Even Holland managed to sort that problem out for the world cup yet we still seemed to be a collection of individuals. Might we not be better picking a young group of players and trying to mould them into something over a few years(like Germany) even if this means taking a sfew steps back in the short term.
Its hard to compare styles with Spain as they have a truly great generation of players at the moment, will be interesting to see what they win when a less talented lot come through and try to play the same way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 14:26:55 GMT
The Germans were in a bad state until recently. Even we thrashed them 5-1. But their FA got together and decided that they needed a long-term vision. They appointed coaches on the basis of that long-term vision - younger players, playing a certain style.
In England, the FA just threw money at the problem. They appointed Capello on a short term vision to get the best out of the current players. He doesn't care about Englands future, all he wants is success now so it looks good on his CV. What we need is someone who will put together a team that might be a gamble for 2012, but will then be firmly on the right track for 2014. i.e drop Lampard, Gerrard etc and build a new team around Wilshere etc
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Post by hairy on Feb 14, 2011 14:35:46 GMT
I agree with your points but have a few questions.
Who would you appoint as manager to do that?
How would the fa/manager cope with the inevitable media backlash after we draw a friendly against someone shit?
Would you not keep one or two old heads around just for their experience for a couple of years? Obviously would have to be the ones who have showed the best attitude towards England and international football.
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Post by moobs on Feb 14, 2011 15:02:54 GMT
We all saw it, moobs. But some of us are trying to debating WHY things went wrong whereas you seem to be just slagging off the players and manager and relishing it. It doesn't really add much to the debate. That is my reason why I think it went wrong, we are technically inferior. Baldy thinks England and Germany are the same, but the match would suggest otherwise
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 15:12:06 GMT
Who would you appoint as manager to do that? I'd probably go for Stuart Pearce Theres always a backlash anyway. But its not as if we're risking anything by doing this. The current status of the England team couldn't be much lower! Maybe someone like Terry or Ferdinand in defence, I'd keep Ashley Cole and Rooney of course would be an old head as well as part of the future. But in the key area of midfield - which is always our downfall - I'd rebuild totally with people like Wilshere, Henderson, Rodwell, McEachran, Johnson.
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Post by dannyc on Feb 14, 2011 15:25:29 GMT
im 26 and i don't think even in my lifetime we will see England in another world cup final sad but true .
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Post by moobs on Feb 14, 2011 15:32:15 GMT
The Germans were in a bad state until recently. Even we thrashed them 5-1. But their FA got together and decided that they needed a long-term vision. They appointed coaches on the basis of that long-term vision - younger players, playing a certain style. In England, the FA just threw money at the problem. They appointed Capello on a short term vision to get the best out of the current players. He doesn't care about Englands future, all he wants is success now so it looks good on his CV. What we need is someone who will put together a team that might be a gamble for 2012, but will then be firmly on the right track for 2014. i.e drop Lampard, Gerrard etc and build a new team around Wilshere etc I don't quite go along with that. Germany have always performed well in tournaments and since 1966 England have always been poor. Germany won in 1974 and 1990 and even that time we beat them 5-1, which was a freak result, they had a poor side but they still reached the final in 2002. So England's best ever side in 45 years only made 1 semi final whereas Germany's worst ever side was still good enough to reach a final which just shows you how polls apart we are.
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Post by hairy on Feb 14, 2011 15:35:00 GMT
The FA seem to think Pearce is capable so you might be right their, at least he has worked with the players already in the u21's. Also being touted for the GB team at the olympics which is under 23 but only likely to contain England players.
Still think it would take a calm head at the FA to not panic if the results didnt go the right way immediatly. Can still remember the Graham Taylor abuse in the press, he was useless as manager but that went way over the top. Even Bobby Robson got torn to shreds.
Saying all that I think your right and that it is the direction to go in but we should probably have done it straight after the world cup. The Cappello situation of a manager who wants the money but not the job while we dont want him as manager but cant afford to sack him is a farce, one which may be looked back on as two wasted years.
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Post by dannyc on Feb 14, 2011 15:36:00 GMT
The Germans were in a bad state until recently. Even we thrashed them 5-1. But their FA got together and decided that they needed a long-term vision. They appointed coaches on the basis of that long-term vision - younger players, playing a certain style. In England, the FA just threw money at the problem. They appointed Capello on a short term vision to get the best out of the current players. He doesn't care about Englands future, all he wants is success now so it looks good on his CV. What we need is someone who will put together a team that might be a gamble for 2012, but will then be firmly on the right track for 2014. i.e drop Lampard, Gerrard etc and build a new team around Wilshere etc I don't quite go along with that. Germany have always performed well in tournaments and since 1966 England have always been poor. Germany won in 1974 and 1990 and even that time we beat them 5-1, which was a freak result, they had a poor side but they still reached the final in 2002. So England's best ever side in 45 years only made 1 semi final whereas Germany's worst ever side was still good enough to reach a final which just shows you how polls apart we are. in euro 96 we where better than Germany we where the better team in the game but didn't take our chances .
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Post by moobs on Feb 14, 2011 16:15:30 GMT
I don't quite go along with that. Germany have always performed well in tournaments and since 1966 England have always been poor. Germany won in 1974 and 1990 and even that time we beat them 5-1, which was a freak result, they had a poor side but they still reached the final in 2002. So England's best ever side in 45 years only made 1 semi final whereas Germany's worst ever side was still good enough to reach a final which just shows you how polls apart we are. in euro 96 we where better than Germany we where the better team in the game but didn't take our chances . 1 game in 30 odd years where we had home advantage and still lost
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Post by dannyc on Feb 14, 2011 16:29:54 GMT
in euro 96 we where better than Germany we where the better team in the game but didn't take our chances . 1 game in 30 odd years where we had home advantage and still lost yes well surely it must change eventually we cant be doomed to not win anything forever surely to god .
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Post by hairy on Feb 14, 2011 16:29:57 GMT
We beat them under Keegan in the European championships in 2000, and we were really shit then so they must have been f*cking terrible.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2011 16:57:57 GMT
and I think they were beaten by Latvia in Euro 2004. They did have a rough spell - reaching the final in 2002 was a real fluke, they were very lucky in the draw.
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Post by moobs on Feb 14, 2011 17:13:10 GMT
We beat them under Keegan in the European championships in 2000, and we were really shit then so they must have been f*cking terrible. In a group we both failed to qualify from. Nothing to crow about really.
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Post by Chris1986 on Feb 14, 2011 17:40:48 GMT
I remember when Wright-Phillips, Bentley, Frances Jeffers, Richard Wright etc were all the next big things and were gonna inspire England to future glory... lets not count our chickens too early eh.
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Post by hairy on Feb 14, 2011 17:54:11 GMT
But England have an ageing squad so at least some of those players are going to have to play, cant rely on the not so golden generation for ever. I agree that most of those players are unproven but we dont have a huge amount of players to call up anymore.
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Post by KLYellow on Feb 14, 2011 23:34:09 GMT
I think club football has also something to do with it. As these players become "stars" for their clubs, earning huge salaries, getting Ferrari's, expensive clothes, WAGS and all the usual trappings, playing for England becomes almost a annoyance! I've never bought that theory. Playing for your country is always an honour. Playing for their clubs is their day-to-day job. Our players want to play for England. No amount of money takes that away. The reasons for our failure are not that simple. The big salaries etc should surely affect other countries players as well? You would be suprised mate. Especially for friendlies, how players see them as a pain in the proverbial, distrupting their daily routine. A lot of players are actually against the "stardom" of being a "famous" football player and football is just their day job, like you and me. They look forward to when training is finished so they can go back to their house, go to the races or indulge in whatever hobby they really enjoy
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Post by Beav on Feb 15, 2011 0:08:06 GMT
I think this highlights that the problem can't be fixed JUST by changing the manager, cash injections or any other form of quick fix.
There needs to be an overhaul.
Another problem is that we English fans have as little patience as anyone and pressure would be poured on during the phases of development.
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Post by dougie07 on Feb 15, 2011 0:56:28 GMT
Raheem Sterling scored 5 for Liverpool tonight. He's horribly talented for a 16 year old. A long way to go but add him to your list. England are producing lots of small, technically gifted players. That's very 'unenglish' but could be interesting for the future. No promises he'll make it but there are more technically able players than in previous seasons.
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Post by Beav on Feb 15, 2011 1:10:38 GMT
I presume he's a striker - I think he's a winger now I've searched
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Post by dougie07 on Feb 15, 2011 2:04:10 GMT
Winger from QPR. Morgan was the lone striker. Very fast, very small and very skillful. Needs a more consistent end product but the boy can play. Wisdom and Coady are big lads and will do well but interesting to see if smaller lads can make it. My money is on yes.
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Post by sihath on Feb 15, 2011 12:13:25 GMT
England have NEVER progressed further than Germany in any Euro or World Cup.
When we won it in '66 Germany, obviously, got to the same round as we did.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 12:32:39 GMT
We did in Euro 2004. Germany went out in the group stage. England went out on penalties to Portugal in the Quarters.
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Post by sihath on Feb 15, 2011 12:35:52 GMT
We did in Euro 2004. Germany went out in the group stage. England went out on penalties to Portugal in the Quarters. Must be World Cups then. Is 2004 the only time we've gone further?
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