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Post by Pete Burrett on Oct 17, 2017 12:28:55 GMT
Very sad to see a significant increase in hate crime in this country: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41648865In 2016-17: 62,685 (78%) were race hate crimes 9,157 (11%) were sexual orientation hate crimes 5,949 (7%) were religious hate crimes 5,558 (7%) were disability hate crimes 1,248 (2%) were transgender hate crimes Just watched a report on TV about a man with learning difficulties who has been harassed for no other reason than he has a disability. Given the number of regular and occasional posters on here, is it reasonable to assume that at least some of them harbour these feelings of hate? Maybe the forum isn't representative of the wider population, I don't know. So here's a question: would anyone care to support or condone hate crime in any of its forms? The floor is yours.
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Post by pooshooter on Oct 17, 2017 12:35:09 GMT
I hate Swindon but don't consider it a crime tbh...
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Post by bashamwonderland on Oct 17, 2017 12:37:04 GMT
Brexit's fault, according to the article lol.
Out of interest, are those figures for conviction, or reporting? Because my limited understanding of hate crime law is that it is perceived, and not performed. Thus, people who were made to fear a Leave vote in the referendum are likely to be more sensitive to confrontation, blaming it on 'hate'. No trial takes place, and another number is added to the stat.
Just like how in the 60s, after the release of a number of UFO films and the moon landings, a great increase in UFO sightings occurred. Of course, nobody was actually seeing UFOs. They were just extra-sensitive to the possibility that UFOs might be here.
If we could get a figure on convictions, we'd be better placed to make a judgment.
You won't find anyone here who condones hate crime, but I think there are better ways of determining the current climate of 'hate' than analysing easily manipulated stats.
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Post by flean on Oct 17, 2017 12:39:55 GMT
Brexit's fault, according to the article lol. Out of interest, are those figures for conviction, or reporting? Because my limited understanding of hate crime law is that it is perceived, and not performed. Thus, people who were made to fear a Leave vote in the referendum are likely to be more sensitive to confrontation, blaming it on 'hate'. No trial takes place, and another number is added to the stat. Just like how in the 60s, after the release of a number of UFO films and the moon landings, a great increase in UFO sightings occurred. Of course, nobody was actually seeing UFOs. They were just extra-sensitive to the possibility that UFOs might be here. If we could get a figure on convictions, we'd be better placed to make a judgment. You won't find anyone here who condones hate crime, but I think there are better ways of determining the current climate of 'hate' than analysing easily manipulated stats. It mentions a spike around the time of the referendum, which (if you trust the stats) is true. Doesn't blame it on Brexit at all.
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Post by ag on Oct 17, 2017 12:48:11 GMT
Brexit's fault, according to the article lol. Out of interest, are those figures for conviction, or reporting? Because my limited understanding of hate crime law is that it is perceived, and not performed. Thus, people who were made to fear a Leave vote in the referendum are likely to be more sensitive to confrontation, blaming it on 'hate'. No trial takes place, and another number is added to the stat. Just like how in the 60s, after the release of a number of UFO films and the moon landings, a great increase in UFO sightings occurred. Of course, nobody was actually seeing UFOs. They were just extra-sensitive to the possibility that UFOs might be here. If we could get a figure on convictions, we'd be better placed to make a judgment. You won't find anyone here who condones hate crime, but I think there are better ways of determining the current climate of 'hate' than analysing easily manipulated stats. It mentions a spike around the time of the referendum, which (if you trust the stats) is true. Doesn't blame it on Brexit at all. The Forum's Resident weasel words expert there, trying to minimise hate crime by comparing it to UFO sightings A man whose comment on the Finsbury Park murder was "If he wanted to kill the Muslims responsible for his beliefs, he should have gone to fight with the Kurds'" But he doesn't condone hate crime...
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Post by Pete Burrett on Oct 17, 2017 12:49:57 GMT
You won't find anyone here who condones hate crime. You are probably right. You'd have to be pretty low on intelligence - not to mention morals - to hate people for any of those reasons. We have a diverse range of posters on here but none of them, bar the odd visiting troll, come across as that thick or lacking in common decency. Nevertheless, such people are out there. Even in the small market town where I live we had an instance recently of a middle aged (white) woman telling a small dark-skinned child to 'go back where you came from.' It baffles me and would, I'd hope, baffle anyone, but a certain percentage of the population agree with such hate and I'd like to understand why.
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Post by Boogaloo on Oct 17, 2017 14:16:50 GMT
You won't find anyone here who condones hate crime. You are probably right. You'd have to be pretty low on intelligence - not to mention morals - to hate people for any of those reasons. We have a diverse range of posters on here but none of them, bar the odd visiting troll, come across as that thick or lacking in common decency. Nevertheless, such people are out there. Even in the small market town where I live we had an instance recently of a middle aged (white) woman telling a small dark-skinned child to 'go back where you came from.' It baffles me and would, I'd hope, baffle anyone, but a certain percentage of the population agree with such hate and I'd like to understand why. I did hear a story in Cardiff about a woman wearing a niqab speaking to her friend in her mother tongue. Some EDL yob shouted at her "Oi, we're in England, you should be speaking English", to which she replied in perfect English, "Actually no, we're in Wales, and I'm speaking Welsh!" Not sure if that was an urban myth, but I would love it to be true.
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Post by flean on Oct 17, 2017 15:09:08 GMT
It mentions a spike around the time of the referendum, which (if you trust the stats) is true. Doesn't blame it on Brexit at all. The Forum's Resident weasel words expert there, trying to minimise hate crime by comparing it to UFO sightings A man whose comment on the Finsbury Park murder was "If he wanted to kill the Muslims responsible for his beliefs, he should have gone to fight with the Kurds'" But he doesn't condone hate crime... I often disagree with Bash on here, but calling him a weasel is over the line imo. Let's keep it respectful eh?
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Post by ag on Oct 17, 2017 15:41:09 GMT
I didn't call him a weasel, I accused him of being a " Wesel words" expert" words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading. But i guess the two are weasily confused. So by all means let's lower the temperature.
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Post by essexyellows on Oct 17, 2017 15:45:00 GMT
Society needs to get a grip....... "Sticks & stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me". We are creating generations that feel the need to have a "tag" that makes them different to everyone else......and most of said tags are made up pish.
It would be interesting to know the percentage of convictions and how the statistics were made up....eg: did the Manchester bombing (religious hate crime) count as 273 individual crimes or 1 ?
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Post by rickyotto on Oct 17, 2017 15:50:34 GMT
If it's like for like comparisons of hate crime Bash, then even if it's not convicted and proven then it would most likely suggest a spike. Take your point that it may be loose perception but it's coming from somewhere
With regards Brexit I don't think there's any denying that a percentage of Brexit voters have rather prejudiced views and this would create a bravado, confidence in airing their ill views, and spike in hate crime. Having said that this was over emphasized in my opinion by the media and a huge percentage voted for other reasons so it's a tiring stereotype and probably one that should be moved on from. Because focusing on that fails to address the root cause of why people DID vote for it
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Post by Pete Burrett on Oct 17, 2017 15:55:29 GMT
Racial background, sexual orientation, religion, disability, transgender status.
These may all be 'tags' (i.e. descriptions of groups of people) but they're accurate descriptions rather than 'pish', and they're the categories that, in law, can be the subject of hate crimes.
I don't think a mentally disadvantaged person who is subjected to bullying because of his disability needs to 'get a grip', I think he needs support and, if possible, justice.
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Post by peterdev on Oct 17, 2017 16:39:18 GMT
The only dislike of others I have is their hate of groups, be they race or gender. Every day I come into contact with such nice people from all walks of life. A story I heard recently....a driving examiner failed somebody at Weybridge many years ago. Gave him nasty looks etc. All because of nose rings, beard, colour, sexuality. Many years later he passed in Weybridge....he was unrecognisable to the examiner. The instructor made the point of mentioning it... I have had a number of a gay students and found them to be fun to be with. One of my gay cousins who is married told me he was never happier than recently....and to think years ago he would have been stuck in an environment full of prejudice and animosity
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Post by bashamwonderland on Oct 17, 2017 16:57:58 GMT
It mentions a spike around the time of the referendum, which (if you trust the stats) is true. Doesn't blame it on Brexit at all. The Forum's Resident weasel words expert there, trying to minimise hate crime by comparing it to UFO sightings A man whose comment on the Finsbury Park murder was "If he wanted to kill the Muslims responsible for his beliefs, he should have gone to fight with the Kurds'"But he doesn't condone hate crime... Seems like you're suggesting that that very statement was a hate crime? Please, do explain how.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Oct 17, 2017 17:04:02 GMT
You won't find anyone here who condones hate crime. You are probably right. You'd have to be pretty low on intelligence - not to mention morals - to hate people for any of those reasons. We have a diverse range of posters on here but none of them, bar the odd visiting troll, come across as that thick or lacking in common decency. Nevertheless, such people are out there. Even in the small market town where I live we had an instance recently of a middle aged (white) woman telling a small dark-skinned child to 'go back where you came from.' It baffles me and would, I'd hope, baffle anyone, but a certain percentage of the population agree with such hate and I'd like to understand why. I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays. It cannot be defended when it does happen. I suppose the closest thing to a defence would be that certain people, when inebriated or under the influence (or mentally unstable) mistakenly project ill-feeling on others which they hold for something bigger than the victim alone. And oftentimes, those people that commit genuine hate crimes are as vulnerable as their victims.* *Not applicable to disability hate crimes.
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Post by saddletramp on Oct 17, 2017 17:57:30 GMT
You are probably right. You'd have to be pretty low on intelligence - not to mention morals - to hate people for any of those reasons. We have a diverse range of posters on here but none of them, bar the odd visiting troll, come across as that thick or lacking in common decency. Nevertheless, such people are out there. Even in the small market town where I live we had an instance recently of a middle aged (white) woman telling a small dark-skinned child to 'go back where you came from.' It baffles me and would, I'd hope, baffle anyone, but a certain percentage of the population agree with such hate and I'd like to understand why. I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays. It cannot be defended when it does happen. I suppose the closest thing to a defence would be that certain people, when inebriated or under the influence (or mentally unstable) mistakenly project ill-feeling on others which they hold for something bigger than the victim alone. And oftentimes, those people that commit genuine hate crimes are as vulnerable as their victims.* *Not applicable to disability hate crimes. "I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays" Wolf whistling at a female is now classed as a hate crime,so you probably have.
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Post by bashamwonderland on Oct 17, 2017 18:05:26 GMT
I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays. It cannot be defended when it does happen. I suppose the closest thing to a defence would be that certain people, when inebriated or under the influence (or mentally unstable) mistakenly project ill-feeling on others which they hold for something bigger than the victim alone. And oftentimes, those people that commit genuine hate crimes are as vulnerable as their victims.* *Not applicable to disability hate crimes. "I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays" Wolf whistling at a female is now classed as a hate crime,so you probably have. Got me.
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Post by flean on Oct 18, 2017 5:56:32 GMT
I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays. It cannot be defended when it does happen. I suppose the closest thing to a defence would be that certain people, when inebriated or under the influence (or mentally unstable) mistakenly project ill-feeling on others which they hold for something bigger than the victim alone. And oftentimes, those people that commit genuine hate crimes are as vulnerable as their victims.* *Not applicable to disability hate crimes. "I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays" Wolf whistling at a female is now classed as a hate crime,so you probably have. I'd say that's more being a t@#* than a hate crime.
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Post by mojofilter on Oct 18, 2017 6:02:11 GMT
You are probably right. You'd have to be pretty low on intelligence - not to mention morals - to hate people for any of those reasons. We have a diverse range of posters on here but none of them, bar the odd visiting troll, come across as that thick or lacking in common decency. Nevertheless, such people are out there. Even in the small market town where I live we had an instance recently of a middle aged (white) woman telling a small dark-skinned child to 'go back where you came from.' It baffles me and would, I'd hope, baffle anyone, but a certain percentage of the population agree with such hate and I'd like to understand why. I can't say I've ever witnessed a hate crime of any type, which is why I doubt that hate in the UK is a real problem nowadays. It cannot be defended when it does happen. I suppose the closest thing to a defence would be that certain people, when inebriated or under the influence (or mentally unstable) mistakenly project ill-feeling on others which they hold for something bigger than the victim alone. And oftentimes, those people that commit genuine hate crimes are as vulnerable as their victims.* *Not applicable to disability hate crimes. I've never seen a murder or a rape but I'm still not too keen.... As for the figures, with things like these it's tough to know whether there's been a spike in hate crimes or a spike in people feeling comfortable with the police enough to report things (considering how racist the police are, I'd be surprised if a lot more people keep these things to themselves)
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Post by Gary Baldi on Oct 18, 2017 8:21:26 GMT
Isn't saying someone is using weasel words a hate crime? Hate crimes is a tough subject because it's so subjective on the individual recipient and their views. I suspect the numbers, in all reality, should be a lot higher if you look at some of the abuse online that some people don't report. Sadly, the bile from all sides from the 2015 onwards has got worse as views have become ever more polarised.
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Post by eighteen93 on Oct 18, 2017 8:30:52 GMT
Is branding all white people racist a hate crime?
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Post by Boogaloo on Oct 18, 2017 8:47:02 GMT
Usually hate crimes tend to go hand-in-hand with poverty and people struggling financially. There was the banking collapse of 2008, the austerity measures, more food-banks than ever, stupidly high house prices that the average family simply cannot afford, lack of social housing, and wages that have not risen in line with inflation.
When you throw all these factors into the mix then some people tend to look for a scapegoat, or an easy target to blame it on. I certainly don't think this is anyway justified, but some people's work that way.
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Post by Boogaloo on Oct 18, 2017 9:07:06 GMT
Is branding all white people racist a hate crime? It's a bit of a fine line, and I'm no legal eagles, but I think it based on hostility or violence towards another group. I think we all agree she is clearly barking, but she didn't advocate that non-whites rise up and attack the whites, or encourage hostility towards whites - she was merely stating her (warped) beliefs, and left the viewers to make up their own minds. That's why the Islamist firebrand Anjem Choudrey has gotten away with it for so long. He was clever enough to know the boundaries, and do just enough to stay on the right side of the law. Although recently, he did caught out and as a result he is now doing bird.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Oct 18, 2017 9:10:34 GMT
Is branding all white people racist a hate crime? It was quite an embarrassing watch and a lot of people on social media were unhappy with the BBC broadcasting it. Portillo and Neil were very polite to said individual and credit to them for not giving them a victim moment to come away with. You could categorise it as a hate crime, but I think it would be OTT to do that. Stupid, misinformed, naive, attention seeking? Possibly.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Oct 18, 2017 9:10:42 GMT
Is branding all white people racist a hate crime? I would say yes, it is. Is your point that black people can be guilty of hate crimes? No-one on this thread has suggested otherwise, and you'd have to be pretty stupid to think they can't be. I dislike ALL hate crime by anyone against anyone. Do you? Sounds as if you're trying to discredit opposition to hate crime by highlighting a black perpetrator. A tactic more expected of DannyC.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Oct 18, 2017 9:19:27 GMT
Hate crimes is a tough subject because it's so subjective on the individual recipient and their views. Not so sure about that. It must usually be very clear what the hate crime is based on, and should be equally clear that the abuse is unacceptable. There should really be no dilution of the offence. Some will always claim that referring to black people as niggers is OK because they have a black friend and he doesn't mind, or that referring to people as Pakis is OK because you don't mind Australians calling you a Pom and it's the same thing. Ignorance is the real enemy here. EDIT - Reference ignorance. Local news: turban wearing Sikhs abused in street as ISIS extremists.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Oct 18, 2017 12:15:52 GMT
Hate crimes is a tough subject because it's so subjective on the individual recipient and their views. Not so sure about that. It must usually be very clear what the hate crime is based on, and should be equally clear that the abuse is unacceptable. There should really be no dilution of the offence. Some will always claim that referring to black people as niggers is OK because they have a black friend and he doesn't mind, or that referring to people as Pakis is OK because you don't mind Australians calling you a Pom and it's the same thing. Ignorance is the real enemy here. EDIT - Reference ignorance. Local news: turban wearing Sikhs abused in street as ISIS extremists. The video above is a good example. Calling all white people racist is a hate crime. I'm not that offended by it, so it's a subjective response. Other people would be very offended by some of the stuff that was said, thus could report it as a hate crime. The same with wolf whistling. I work with someone who would regard it as a compliment on how they dress and look after themselves.
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Post by plonker on Oct 18, 2017 13:11:53 GMT
I think it's a hate crime. If a person blankets an entire group of people for any reason - be it because of their race, gender, sexuality or religion etc then it's a hate crime and completely unacceptable.
I wasn't offended, I was more dumbstruck than anything. It was painful to watch someone so blissfully unaware of their own hypocrisy spout so much nonsense.
Very surprised the BBC gave her a platform. What a load of bollocks.
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Post by Boogaloo on Oct 18, 2017 13:44:57 GMT
I think it's a hate crime. If a person blankets an entire group of people for any reason - be it because of their race, gender, sexuality or religion etc then it's a hate crime and completely unacceptable. I wasn't offended, I was more dumbstruck than anything. It was painful to watch someone so blissfully unaware of their own hypocrisy spout so much nonsense. Very surprised the BBC gave her a platform. What a load of bollocks. I am not too surprised about the BBC giving her a platform, but there does tend to be a bit of hypocrisy there. Would they invite someone on their who said "All muslims are ISIS sympathisers", or "All Eastern European are criminals"? Of course they wouldn't, and nor should they for that matter. But a neutral Television channel, the BBC are most definitely not.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Oct 18, 2017 20:33:36 GMT
That would be the only reason I would complain. But the BBC will say they are offering all viewpoints the chance to be heard with that interview, and This Week is a program that pushes different views more than any on the BBC. You wouldn't get that on Breakfast or the One Show. Hillary Clinton's pity party is about as edgy as the One Show gets nowadays.
The lean the BBC has would make a far right idiot a far less likely occurrence though.
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