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Post by Barts on Jul 22, 2016 15:46:34 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option.
As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place.
A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build.
And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium.
Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen.
My feelings on those 3 things are
A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land.
B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave.
C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative.
In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time.
Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along.
I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 22, 2016 15:48:33 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Exactly that , and with a saving of £500k a year in rent, plus extra revenue from conference, advertising, sponsorship, and catering we could almost turn our year losses into break even
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Post by Marked Ox on Jul 22, 2016 16:02:12 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Exactly that , and with a saving of £500k a year in rent, plus extra revenue from conference, advertising, sponsorship, and catering we could almost turn our year losses into break even There is not likely to be a saving of £500k on rent as part of that is Business Rates, iirc, and we will have the servicing costs for any loan which will wipe out any rent saving. It is whether the additional income cancels out or is greater than the increased cost of servicing the loans that will be required and any other additional costs. Hopefully, the income is greater but the fact a deal hasn't been done suggests maybe it isn't so clearcut. The OxVox update will hopefully shine more light as the Stadium situation is key for the future.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 22, 2016 16:05:41 GMT
Exactly that , and with a saving of £500k a year in rent, plus extra revenue from conference, advertising, sponsorship, and catering we could almost turn our year losses into break even There is not likely to be a saving of £500k on rent as part of that is Business Rates, iirc, and we will have the servicing costs for any loan which will wipe out any rent saving. It is whether the additional income cancels out or is greater than the increased cost of servicing the loans that will be required and any other additional costs. Hopefully, the income is greater but the fact a deal hasn't been done suggests maybe it isn't so clearcut. The OxVox update will hopefully shine more light as the Stadium situation is key for the future. Depends where the money comes from, if it's not a loan or is a soft loan there won't be any fees and I think the rates and service charges are on top of that meaning we pay more like 700k a season at present
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Post by saddletramp on Jul 22, 2016 16:17:53 GMT
80 years?! I could have sworn there was only about 10-15 years left. Did we sign a new deal or something? it was mentioned on this forum an awful lot a few years back about how we can leave in under 20 years or so. Can't remember the exact timescale but it certainly wasn't 80! Unless I've missed something recently? Confused.com I think its another 10 years as Kassam signed us to a 25 year deal in 2001. Are you sure ? Kassam owned the club in 2001,unless he signed a 25 year lease with himself,I think that's unlikely. Maybe 25 years from when he sold the club ?
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Post by Marked Ox on Jul 22, 2016 16:28:14 GMT
There is not likely to be a saving of £500k on rent as part of that is Business Rates, iirc, and we will have the servicing costs for any loan which will wipe out any rent saving. It is whether the additional income cancels out or is greater than the increased cost of servicing the loans that will be required and any other additional costs. Hopefully, the income is greater but the fact a deal hasn't been done suggests maybe it isn't so clearcut. The OxVox update will hopefully shine more light as the Stadium situation is key for the future. Depends where the money comes from, if it's not a loan or is a soft loan there won't be any fees and I think the rates and service charges are on top of that meaning we pay more like 700k a season at present I'd be very surprised if a decent wedge of the capital needed to buy the stadium doesn't come from commercial loans. The last set of club accounts I can remember (admittedly a few years ago now ) ) showed the split something like £350k rent, £150k rates/service charges but clearly this could be out of date and wrong.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 22, 2016 16:42:21 GMT
Depends where the money comes from, if it's not a loan or is a soft loan there won't be any fees and I think the rates and service charges are on top of that meaning we pay more like 700k a season at present I'd be very surprised if a decent wedge of the capital needed to buy the stadium doesn't come from commercial loans. The last set of club accounts I can remember (admittedly a few years ago now ) ) showed the split something like £350k rent, £150k rates/service charges but clearly this could be out of date and wrong. Eales is a good business man I'm sure he would only make an investment if its sustainable. Of course we may not have to buy it. A deal may be reached with kassam to part own it, or we pay slightly more rent but take all revenue while retains the land
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Post by Barts on Jul 22, 2016 17:03:13 GMT
I think its another 10 years as Kassam signed us to a 25 year deal in 2001. Are you sure ? Kassam owned the club in 2001,unless he signed a 25 year lease with himself,I think that's unlikely. Maybe 25 years from when he sold the club ? The lease was an agreement between Firoka and Oufc.
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Post by nottsyellow on Jul 22, 2016 18:32:12 GMT
Buy both! First buy the Kassam Stadium for £16M. Just do essential improvements whilst looking for the land for the new stadium. Buy the land for the new stadium and progress the building plans. Then get planning permission for houses (or a hospital) on the Kassam site. Start building work on the new stadium. Do a deal with housing developer (or for a hospital) to sell the Kassam plot with planning permission for £32M. Use the £16M profit from Kassam site to finish off the new Stadium. We have then used £16M of Kassam asset to finance build of new stadium.
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Post by yellows1 on Jul 23, 2016 21:57:19 GMT
One things for sure, things cannot stay as they are long term, we must buy the ground or purchase a new ground long term to make a proper business of it and generate the relevant income streams.
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Post by headingtonutd on Jul 23, 2016 23:42:46 GMT
Buy both! First buy the Kassam Stadium for £16M. Just do essential improvements whilst looking for the land for the new stadium. Buy the land for the new stadium and progress the building plans. Then get planning permission for houses (or a hospital) on the Kassam site. Start building work on the new stadium. Do a deal with housing developer (or for a hospital) to sell the Kassam plot with planning permission for £32M. Use the £16M profit from Kassam site to finish off the new Stadium. We have then used £16M of Kassam asset to finance build of new stadium. Trust me, if it were as simple as you make it sound we would have done it already. Hell I would have done it already, made my millions and given the club a ground. And you can be sure FK would have tried it. Some sticking points with the plan. Where do we find the £16m? Where do we find the £500,000 to do the maintenance? On top of all that money we then need to find enough to buy a plot for the new ground? Then start paying for architects and planning consultants (hundreds of thousands on a build this size). Then go through the same expense for the houses at the old site. Then start paying out millions to start the new stadium which to be honest I just don't see us getting planning permission on. Doing a deal with any developer from scratch would take an age. They would have to deal with the council to negotiate affordable housing and infrastructure charges. What makes you think there is enough space in a football stadium to build enough houses to warrant a £32m cost? Hence no £16m profit. Lastly, a new stadium with decent facilities and revenue streams attached would cost a lot more than £16m. I'd guess at twice that on the conservative side. I'm not just trying to shoot this all down for the sake of it and I would LOVE it if it were that simple and could be done. It just won't happen this way and we need to be realistic because buying or building our own ground and then locking it into the club is the biggest issue we face. Our best chance for ground ownership is buying the the current stadium as is and making it our own. A very tempting second option would be for FK to try and develop and to want to pay us out of our contract. This would have to depend on us having an agreed plot (Water Eaton) and agreed planning permission as being left without any suitable stadium would be a disaster. Of course there are far smarter people than myself (really not that hard) who I am sure have researched this much more than I have but to me it comes down to those two options for us moving forward. I have a great deal of faith in DE and I trust (fingers crossed) he is working hard on both options.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 24, 2016 7:34:29 GMT
Buy both! First buy the Kassam Stadium for £16M. Just do essential improvements whilst looking for the land for the new stadium. Buy the land for the new stadium and progress the building plans. Then get planning permission for houses (or a hospital) on the Kassam site. Start building work on the new stadium. Do a deal with housing developer (or for a hospital) to sell the Kassam plot with planning permission for £32M. Use the £16M profit from Kassam site to finish off the new Stadium. We have then used £16M of Kassam asset to finance build of new stadium. Trust me, if it were as simple as you make it sound we would have done it already. Hell I would have done it already, made my millions and given the club a ground. And you can be sure FK would have tried it. Some sticking points with the plan. Where do we find the £16m? Where do we find the £500,000 to do the maintenance? On top of all that money we then need to find enough to buy a plot for the new ground? Then start paying for architects and planning consultants (hundreds of thousands on a build this size). Then go through the same expense for the houses at the old site. Then start paying out millions to start the new stadium which to be honest I just don't see us getting planning permission on. Doing a deal with any developer from scratch would take an age. They would have to deal with the council to negotiate affordable housing and infrastructure charges. What makes you think there is enough space in a football stadium to build enough houses to warrant a £32m cost? Hence no £16m profit. Lastly, a new stadium with decent facilities and revenue streams attached would cost a lot more than £16m. I'd guess at twice that on the conservative side. I'm not just trying to shoot this all down for the sake of it and I would LOVE it if it were that simple and could be done. It just won't happen this way and we need to be realistic because buying or building our own ground and then locking it into the club is the biggest issue we face. Our best chance for ground ownership is buying the the current stadium as is and making it our own. A very tempting second option would be for FK to try and develop and to want to pay us out of our contract. This would have to depend on us having an agreed plot (Water Eaton) and agreed planning permission as being left without any suitable stadium would be a disaster. Of course there are far smarter people than myself (really not that hard) who I am sure have researched this much more than I have but to me it comes down to those two options for us moving forward. I have a great deal of faith in DE and I trust (fingers crossed) he is working hard on both options. There is also currently the possibility of having a training complex opposite the kassam, that we almost certainly wouldn't get permission for at WE. If a deal can be done with the councils and BMW, to build it there instead of at horsepath. Then the kassam suddenly becomes very attractive. We can bring all the training from youth level to Dev squad into the same facility as the first team, that has benefits in its self of training in and around players ur trying to be like. All our sports science and medics are in the same place, and u can build maybe a small stand on one side of 1 practise pitch so that women's games and Dev games can be played on site., using it as a community facility at times were not using it . The traffic network around the kassam isn't the problem, the road system is probably better than the bottle neck at WE back to the a34 that blocks up every rush hour. It's the car park that needs sorting long term, wth either a secondary exit road onto the leys through any development on the over flow or behind the priory, saying that if the over flow is built on it will half the traffic issues in the car park. There is then the chance of either having parking around the new training area, or agreeing a deal for use of the science parks multi stories. As well as maybe pro and ride busses being sorted. Their are plans in to open a train station. That will also help massively. If we can get a deal, where we buy the stadium, but kassam has to put in a 4th stand and better road infrastructure to get permission to build on overflow land, and we get a state of the art training facility paid in large by BMW. Then added to the fact we have no rent, and large revenue opportunities, the kassam is suddenly very attractive, and the things that can be done to improve it will become easier.
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Post by arthur on Jul 24, 2016 9:44:18 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Interested to know where exactly the other 17,500 seat are going? unless it's going to be a very big north stand!!
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Post by headingtonutd on Jul 24, 2016 9:58:00 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Interested to know where exactly the other 17,500 seat are going? unless it's going to be a very big north stand!! I remember being shown round the site when it was being constructed and being given some ambitious plans for expansion. If memory serves me right the ground was built so that the corners could be filled in as needed, hence the rather large gaps. I think at the time they suggested once everything was in place it would be somewhere around 25,000? I'm sure someone with a better recall of facts can give us a definitive number, but that does stick in my mind.
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Post by Denissmithswig on Jul 24, 2016 10:00:27 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Interested to know where exactly the other 17,500 seat are going? unless it's going to be a very big north stand!! Corners filled in, 2 tier 4th stand and I believe that the north stand can be adapted to put another tier on it.
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Post by grover on Jul 24, 2016 10:22:29 GMT
Also remember being taken round Kassam when it was first being built and was told that the fourth stand would increase capacity from 12,600 to around 15,500 (with the new lounge at top of East Stand). Filling in corners would take capacity to nearly 20,000. Design allowed for further 6 rows of seating (maybe lowering pitch and putting seats at front of all stands??)which would take capacity to 23,500.
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Post by headingtonutd on Jul 24, 2016 10:31:11 GMT
Also remember being taken round Kassam when it was first being built and was told that the fourth stand would increase capacity from 12,600 to around 15,500 (with the new lounge at top of East Stand). Filling in corners would take capacity to nearly 20,000. Design allowed for further 6 rows of seating (maybe lowering pitch and putting seats at front of all stands??)which would take capacity to 23,500. Yup. That all sounds about right to me. The plans of the enclosed ground were impressive.
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Post by essexyellows on Jul 24, 2016 11:44:57 GMT
If there is a 99 year sports use covenant than that would scupper any building potential eg: Housing/hospital etc. without considerable cost/compensation to somebody.
We have the skeleton of a decent ground with potential.
We just need a fairy god parent with money to burn......... or a crowd funded initiative.
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Post by headingtonutd on Jul 24, 2016 11:56:22 GMT
If there is a 99 year sports use covenant than that would scupper any building potential eg: Housing/hospital etc. without considerable cost/compensation to somebody. We have the skeleton of a decent ground with potential. We just need a fairy god parent with money to burn......... or a crowd funded initiative. I'm more than happy with the one we have got! Money to burn tends to get just that, burnt. DE has money and the business acumen to use it wisely. He is also pretty adept at raising more when needed. I'd take a long stint of a DE and the forward planning of the club over a boom and bust of a short term fairy god parent.
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Post by Barts on Jul 24, 2016 14:57:21 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Interested to know where exactly the other 17,500 seat are going? unless it's going to be a very big north stand!! The fourth stand would take it to 15000. But you can double tier the two ends, which would take the capacity to 21000. Then fill in the corners which would take it to 30000.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 24, 2016 15:13:04 GMT
I think (fwiw) buying the Kassam would be an easier option. As I understand it the WE project needs a lot of things too fall into place. A) Agreement with Cherwell DC B) An agreement to get out of the kassam deal C) Getting funding in place to purchase the new land and the build. And then all the other things that goes with building a stadium. Without getting all the first 3 things in place it can't happen. My feelings on those 3 things are A) Cherwell aren't keen on us moving there. But that could just be them trying to get a better price on the land. B) Firoz Kassam would love us out if it meant he could knock the ground down and build on it. Which means he may even be willing to pay for us too leave. C) The funding. This could be possible from a mixture of things. Oufc, Kassam (see b) wealthy fans, the council, FA funding and possibly a crowd funding initiative. In my opinion these reasons are why WE would take so long to get sorted and you never know what the actual price will be say in 5 or 6 years time. Whereas with the Kassam we can buy it quicker and slowly work on the improvements as we go along. I'm not sure how many know this, but if we maximised the Kassam it could be a 30000 capacity stadium. Interested to know where exactly the other 17,500 seat are going? unless it's going to be a very big north stand!! We would have to be a side flitting between top of champ and the prem to warrant that many. Another 10k from the corners and a new stand at the fence end would be enough to be a regular in the championship. Did u get a parking space in the end ?
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Post by Young Money on Jul 24, 2016 15:13:55 GMT
The atmosphere would be great with corners filled and 30k in there, although I wouldn't fancy the parking or getting out after
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Post by arthur on Jul 24, 2016 19:01:00 GMT
Interested to know where exactly the other 17,500 seat are going? unless it's going to be a very big north stand!! The fourth stand would take it to 15000. But you can double tier the two ends, which would take the capacity to 21000. Then fill in the corners which would take it to 30000. 9000 in the 4 corners, you're having a laugh aren't you, that's 2250 in each corner! The east stand only holds about 2500!!
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Post by Barts on Jul 24, 2016 20:52:17 GMT
Mate, I'm only going on what I was told by the stadium manager during a tour.
I'm assuming they would double tier the two ends before they would contemplate filling in the corners and then they would be able to fill them in to join up with the top of the south and north stands.
So no, I'm not 'having a laugh' just going on what I've been told and then using common sense to realise how it would work.
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Post by arthur on Jul 24, 2016 22:22:30 GMT
Ok, so you're not having a laugh, I might have been a bit flippant with that comment but I still think 9000 in the corners is a bit optimistic!
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 25, 2016 6:25:46 GMT
Think it would take all four corners, and the fence end and a second tier to the north stand. To get near 30k imagine how much that would cost
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Post by horseman on Jul 25, 2016 7:23:47 GMT
Genuine Question: The train station that is mentioned where is this going to be?
As someone who travels via train and bus, anything that stops the tour of oxford from the train station would be a major plus.More often than not the bus takes longer than the train journey and then there is the endless wait after games to finally travel like sardines back through the city. I have mentioned here previously that night games are a non starter due to the very tight timeline from final whistle back to catch the last train home. I wonder if as it stands there is enough demand to look into special buses from the station that would go direct to the stadium as with various other specials laid on.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jul 25, 2016 7:47:04 GMT
There is already a little disused one just behind the stadium, on the line that BMW use to transport. The talk is about opening one for bbl and the science park, not sure if it's the same one or building a new one. But would mean fans could be brought straight in from Oxford.
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Post by robie on Jul 25, 2016 10:22:42 GMT
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