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Post by mojofilter on May 9, 2016 20:58:50 GMT
I'm planning to take an evening and read properly all of the arguments but my current level of understanding makes me say we should stay. Particularly because the people campaigning for a "out" vote seem to be, across the spectrum, a shower of total bastards and instinctively I believe that many bastards all ploughing towards the same goal shouldn't get my suppport.
So vote IN just to wipe the smirk off Boris' daft face
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 8:18:08 GMT
As far as democracy is concerned. Two points. How do we go about changing EU law when we always get outvoted? How is it right that MEPs vote on law but commissioners ignore their vote? Think of the Lisbon Treaty when Ireland voted no and were told to vote again because their vote wasn't liked. I don't want to get drawn into the immigration debate, because even if we left our border control or lack of it would not prevent the huge numbers coming in from Eastern Europe. Nothing against Eastern European immigrants as they seem nice people, but why do we have open borders when the country cannot cope with higher demand for schools and hospitals, not to mention housing....I have often wondered when the open spaces between Reading and Oxford will become house
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 9:24:58 GMT
I'll come off the fence now.
Since the possible abandonment of TTIP within the EU - its now unquestionably better to remain in the EU than leave.
A Tory government won't hesitate to sell UK sovereignty out to corporate power in the U.S via a revised TTIP.
Ironically, Brexit would now clearly move the UK closer towards being a vassal state.
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Post by malcolmnl on May 10, 2016 9:55:52 GMT
Although I have had a good life since taking advantage of the freedom of labour laws, I always have had doubts about some of the EU rules. But with TTIP rearing its ugly head I now 100% believe that the UK should stay in the EU, despite its many drawbacks. TTIP is a horrible thing that would put corporate wishes above those of the people. I have decided that if brexit becomes a fact I will give up my UK citizanship and become a Dutch national. Brexit would be the end of a free UK and go under to all the big American multinational.
So please vote to stay in the EU, you know it makes sense.
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Post by The Fence End on May 10, 2016 11:31:39 GMT
Although I have had a good life since taking advantage of the freedom of labour laws, I always have had doubts about some of the EU rules. But with TTIP rearing its ugly head I now 100% believe that the UK should stay in the EU, despite its many drawbacks. TTIP is a horrible thing that would put corporate wishes above those of the people. I have decided that if brexit becomes a fact I will give up my UK citizanship and become a Dutch national. Brexit would be the end of a free UK and go under to all the big American multinational. So please vote to stay in the EU, you know it makes sense. Some of the more vociferous Brexiteers would suggest that all those voting to stay in the EU should relinquish their British citizenship. Can anyone actually explain what TTIP actually is? Just seems like something that is over complicated and is being used by the project fear remain camp to scare and confuse people to suit their needs. As I have said before no one knows the impact of TTIP or what affects an in or out vote would have so it needs to be simplified. If you want to be self governed vote out if you want to be governed by a foreign power vote in.
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Post by Pete Burrett on May 10, 2016 11:42:31 GMT
I've now read up on TTIP. There's plenty of information out there. The Fence End likes to refer to his conscience and the disrespect remaining will show to war veterans. Well, I'm now firmly IN. I couldn't live with MY conscience if I voted to leave. Brexit would simply mean exchanging what leavers consider rule by foreigners (the EU) for rule by US multinationals under TTIP.
Everyone should read as much as they can stand on these issues. There's no need to reproduce random soundbites from either side on here. Read for yourself and decide.
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Post by whingit on May 10, 2016 11:47:22 GMT
Although I have had a good life since taking advantage of the freedom of labour laws, I always have had doubts about some of the EU rules. But with TTIP rearing its ugly head I now 100% believe that the UK should stay in the EU, despite its many drawbacks. TTIP is a horrible thing that would put corporate wishes above those of the people. I have decided that if brexit becomes a fact I will give up my UK citizanship and become a Dutch national. Brexit would be the end of a free UK and go under to all the big American multinational. So please vote to stay in the EU, you know it makes sense. Some of the more vociferous Brexiteers would suggest that all those voting to stay in the EU should relinquish their British citizenship. Can anyone actually explain what TTIP actually is? Just seems like something that is over complicated and is being used by the project fear remain camp to scare and confuse people to suit their needs. As I have said before no one knows the impact of TTIP or what affects an in or out vote would have so it needs to be simplified. If you want to be self governed vote out if you want to be governed by a foreign power vote in. www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
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Post by Paul Cannell on May 10, 2016 12:09:34 GMT
As I have said before no one knows the impact of TTIP or what affects an in or out vote would have so it needs to be simplified. If you want to be self governed vote out if you want to be governed by a foreign power vote in. The effect of TTIP would be, among other things, that multinationals would be able to sue government in a court of their choosing - making them able to ignore national labour and tax laws for a start. The UK government policy is to introduce TTIP without telling us. The EU is debating about it. Vote out and we will be governed by a foreign power faster and for certain. There's a chance the EU will protect the independence your forebears fought for.
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Post by The Fence End on May 10, 2016 13:17:41 GMT
Is that worth losing the right to be self governed, losing our national identity?
No, nothing is.
It seems we need to campaign to leave the EU and stop TTIP. Time to fight the good fight in two fronts!
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Post by Pete Burrett on May 10, 2016 13:26:57 GMT
Is that worth losing the right to be self governed, losing our national identity? No, nothing is. It seems we need to campaign to leave the EU and stop TTIP. Time to fight the good fight in two fronts! What is our 'national identity'? Surely it's being British? Leave the EU and we're British. Remain and we're British. You might have a point about self-determination, but it's somewhat lost by wrapping it up with this abstract notion of national identity. By the way, should we leave the EU, I wish the British the very best of luck taking on the USA over TTIP. That's a fairly uneven fight, and we won't have a group of friendly and influential European nations fighting with us.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 13:41:21 GMT
Is that worth losing the right to be self governed, losing our national identity? No, nothing is. It seems we need to campaign to leave the EU and stop TTIP. Time to fight the good fight in two fronts! If the UK leaves the EU and a Tory government signs up unilaterally to a revised TTIP (as seems very likely) - self governance will be the first thing lost. TTIP is not a trade agreement - it is a legally binding supra-national agreement that protects foreign investment. Anything that prevents the "right" of foreign capital to exploit member states will result in punitive law suits that can and will overrule parliamentary legislation. An example of this would be the Ecuadorian government forced to spend disaster relief money paying a multinational oil firm. www.sodiumhaze.org/2016/05/02/disaster-capitalism-ecuador-forced-to-pay-us-oil-giant-180m/The NHS and any national law that might impede corporate America would be in the dustbin. You call that self-governed? I wouldn't. More info here: www.sodiumhaze.org/2016/05/02/leaked-ttip-documents-confirm-corporate-power-grab-at-heart-of-euus-trade-deal/
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Post by tonyw on May 10, 2016 18:51:18 GMT
Course, if my friends and neighbours over here take a collective leave of their senses in November and vote for The Donald - and the Obama administration can't get TTIP closed this year - you can probably forget about TTIP.
His is a racist, misogynistic arsehole - but also strangely left wing, for an American politician, on a number of issues. Free trade being #1 on the list.
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Post by whingit on May 10, 2016 18:58:21 GMT
Course, if my friends and neighbours over here take a collective leave of their senses in November and vote for The Donald - and the Obama administration can't get TTIP closed this year - you can probably forget about TTIP. His is a racist, misogynistic arsehole - but also strangely left wing, for an American politician, on a number of issues. Free trade being #1 on the list. Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that, though I'd say liberal instead of left wing. Give me Trump over Ted Cruz any day, Cruz is a horrible, nasty man. It's a bit like choosing between two people to shoot your mother, though.
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Post by Paul Cannell on May 10, 2016 19:09:00 GMT
That may depend on your mother, some cynic may say.
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Post by barmyarmy on May 12, 2016 14:41:17 GMT
Things must have moved on since I last looked into this...
Obama made a speech (that Dave wrote for him) saying we would be at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we left the EU, that was supposed to scare us but would appear it back fired. Isnt that exactly what we want?
Mass demonstrations in europe have taken place against the introduction of TTIP in the EU, you really think they will work? I dont.
Dave has a league table of the most corrupt nations and lists Nigeria and Afganistan as 1 and 2, where is the EU in his list? No approved accounts for 20 years hardly suggests everything is above board. Maybe he is a beneficiary so it doesnt count....
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Post by Marked Ox on May 12, 2016 16:53:02 GMT
Things must have moved on since I last looked into this... Obama made a speech (that Dave wrote for him) saying we would be at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we left the EU, that was supposed to scare us but would appear it back fired. Isnt that exactly what we want? Mass demonstrations in europe have taken place against the introduction of TTIP in the EU, you really think they will work? I dont. Dave has a league table of the most corrupt nations and lists Nigeria and Afganistan as 1 and 2, where is the EU in his list? No approved accounts for 20 years hardly suggests everything is above board. Maybe he is a beneficiary so it doesnt count.... Links to where it says Dave wrote Obama's speech? So you don't want a trade deal with the US quickly if Brexit wins? Our Government is very keen on TTIP so Brexit would mean us signing up to TTIP or something very like it. Nigeria and Afghanistan are fantastically corrupt. That the EU accounts haven't been signed off by Auditors for so long is awful and does deserve far greater pressure/scrutiny. Have you something to back up that last comment about Call me Dave?
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Post by whingit on May 12, 2016 21:32:35 GMT
Mark Carney is going to win the referendum for IN. His views are seen as more important than anyone elses and rightly so, he has no motive/agenda to spin.
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Post by MJB on May 12, 2016 21:38:38 GMT
I'll be voting for remain and I sincerely hope it wins the referendum. Not so much for me and my generation but for my young daughter and her generation.
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Post by The Fence End on May 12, 2016 22:27:59 GMT
I'll be voting for leave and I sincerely hope it wins the referendum. Not so much for me and my generation but for my young sons and their generation.
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Post by amershamdave on May 12, 2016 23:39:38 GMT
Here's one: Why don't the 'stay in' brigade try to force the Tories to answer this - what will happen to workers' rights, if Britain votes to come out of the EU? Mind you, we all know what a Tory 'promise' really means, don't we!
Labour wants to stay in? Ask that bloody question then!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 7:25:54 GMT
I don't think Mark Carney will sway too many voters. Most of his predictions have been incorrect. Anyway, how many people took part in the survey and where was it taken?
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Post by The Fence End on May 13, 2016 10:16:36 GMT
I see the IMF have joined the scaremongering this morning. It looks like the team of civil servants and diplomats charged by Cameron to get pro EU soundbites have got to them too. Unless someone has a crystal ball no one knows what is going to happen.
Do you remember when the millenium bug was going to make the world grind to a halt? And what about the time we were all going to die from SARS and Swine flu? The media love these doom and gloom predictions that the gullible and unintelligent believe.
It's very simple: if you want to be governed by a foreign power vote in, if you want the UK to be independent and self governing vote leave.
Vote Out, take back control.
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Post by Pete Burrett on May 13, 2016 10:18:27 GMT
I see the IMF have joined the scaremongering this morning. It looks like the team of civil servants and diplomats charged by Cameron to get pro EU soundbites have got to them too. Unless someone has a crystal ball no one knows what is going to happen. Do you remember when the millenium bug was going to make the world grind to a halt? And what about the time we were all going to die from SARS and Swine flu? The media love these doom and gloom predictions that the gullible and unintelligent believe. It's very simple: if you want to be governed by a foreign power vote in, if you want the UK to be independent and self governing vote leave. Vote Out, take back control. Why is everything that comes out of the remain camp 'scaremongering', according to you, whereas anything from the leave side is not? If you ask me, most of what emits from both camps is designed to scare. That's the point.
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Post by Paul Cannell on May 13, 2016 11:48:36 GMT
Vote Out, take back control. If voting could change anything they wouldn't let you do it.
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Post by barmyarmy on May 13, 2016 14:43:36 GMT
Things must have moved on since I last looked into this... Obama made a speech (that Dave wrote for him) saying we would be at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we left the EU, that was supposed to scare us but would appear it back fired. Isnt that exactly what we want? Mass demonstrations in europe have taken place against the introduction of TTIP in the EU, you really think they will work? I dont. Dave has a league table of the most corrupt nations and lists Nigeria and Afganistan as 1 and 2, where is the EU in his list? No approved accounts for 20 years hardly suggests everything is above board. Maybe he is a beneficiary so it doesnt count.... Links to where it says Dave wrote Obama's speech? So you don't want a trade deal with the US quickly if Brexit wins? Our Government is very keen on TTIP so Brexit would mean us signing up to TTIP or something very like it. Nigeria and Afghanistan are fantastically corrupt. That the EU accounts haven't been signed off by Auditors for so long is awful and does deserve far greater pressure/scrutiny. Have you something to back up that last comment about Call me Dave? Lots of tongue in cheek in my post. I could make a link and post it, doesnt mean its true. Obama said if we are out we are at the back of the queue..... It was a threat, who did it scare? If we are in we get TTIP if we are out we get TTIP. Seems to me the only way to stop it is vote out and vote out the tories?
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Post by whingit on May 13, 2016 16:49:24 GMT
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Post by ovaltoyou on May 13, 2016 17:04:16 GMT
Vote Out, take back control. If voting could change anything they wouldn't let you do it. Completely right, since when have we had a voting democracy in this country. When have we had a Parliament that represents the people voting. Take back control for the landowners, what! It's funny that those that want to leave are the right wing of the political spectrum and even our friend from across the pond DONALD TRUMP!!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 17:39:17 GMT
I agree that we should leave. I personally feel that there are dirty tactics deployed by Cameron to keep us in. In 1975 the consensus was that the extreme left and right wanted to stay in. If the government can give that impression I'm sure the British public will swallow it hook line and sinker
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Post by Paul Cannell on May 13, 2016 17:54:51 GMT
Possibly, if we're talking Dave, it should be 'hook, line and stinker'. But then....
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Post by Marked Ox on May 14, 2016 13:33:24 GMT
I agree that we should leave. I personally feel that there are dirty tactics deployed by Cameron to keep us in. In 1975 the consensus was that the extreme left and right wanted to stay in. If the government can give that impression I'm sure the British public will swallow it hook line and sinker Both sides are using 'dirty tactics'.
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