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Post by paulayres on Feb 2, 2011 7:46:50 GMT
The way we give away goals means we have to score at least 2 goals to get a win. 23 games without a clean sheet shows a serious problem with the defence.
The CH pairings have been shown to be weak and this needs to be addressed. In my opinion Jake Wright is nowhere near as good as some of you believe, and should be rested. Maybe a change is needed, why not try the lad from York??
A good defence has to have good CH partnerships and thats what is lacking. The goals we give away from set pieces is embarrassing and cost us dearly. Tonkin is nowhere good enough at this level and Wilder should have looked to bring in a quality left back in the summer.
I really thought we had a chance of automatic promotion, but that is becoming a distant dream. At the rate we are going a playoff place will be beyond us.
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Post by basingstokeox on Feb 2, 2011 10:34:10 GMT
Personally I not confident unless we are 2 clear goals ahead ;D
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 15:53:42 GMT
kneejerk
Not to the fact we have a defensive problem, but your dreams of automatic promotion are fading into the distance? At the rate we're going a playoff place will be beyond us? It's only been 2 games since our last win, and that was 3-1 over shrewsbury. We had the best form in the league. We then drew with a very good cheltenham side and were unlucky not to get a penalty or two.
How is the central defence pairing responsible for us looking weak at set pieces anyway? They're fine with balls over the top normally, surely it's everyone else that's the problem? And really, wilder should have looked to bring in a new left back over the summer... last thing I checked, he did. His name's Steven Kinniburgh and he was excellent for us up to his injury last season. A certain Antony Tonkin was pretty blisteringly good at that point too.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 2, 2011 16:42:16 GMT
kneejerk Not to the fact we have a defensive problem, but your dreams of automatic promotion are fading into the distance? At the rate we're going a playoff place will be beyond us? It's only been 2 games since our last win, and that was 3-1 over shrewsbury. We had the best form in the league. We then drew with a very good cheltenham side and were unlucky not to get a penalty or two. How is the central defence pairing responsible for us looking weak at set pieces anyway? They're fine with balls over the top normally, surely it's everyone else that's the problem? And really, wilder should have looked to bring in a new left back over the summer... last thing I checked, he did. His name's Steven Kinniburgh and he was excellent for us up to his injury last season. A certain Antony Tonkin was pretty blisteringly good at that point too. I'm sorry but blaming the other players in the team rather than the defence for the fact we have not kept a clean sheet for over four months is ridiculous. It is the defence's job to defend and they aren't doing it are they.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 17:15:30 GMT
Okay, then explain what the central defence pairing has done wrong. Each one individually has messed up at times, but the majority of goals conceded have come from set pieces or mistakes by our respective left backs, haven't they?
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Post by Beav on Feb 2, 2011 17:47:16 GMT
explain what the central defence pairing has done wrong. Each one individually has messed up at times Answered your own question.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 17:57:30 GMT
But that's not to do with the pairing, which was what was being suggested. Plus, try and find a CB pairing at this level that don't individually mess up at times, I think you'll really struggle.
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Post by Beav on Feb 2, 2011 18:26:10 GMT
That's the point LLC.
I don't think I would struggle at all!
I think it should be mandatory that good CB pairings don't make mistakes. Did Wright, Foster or Beast actually make a mistake that cost us a goal last year?
I can't remember one.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 18:37:56 GMT
I don't think I've been on an opposition forum (roughly every other game) this season in which we've scored and seen anybody not blame one of our goals on a mistake. I can't remember whether they made mistakes last year, the only league game that actually sticks in my mind was York on the first day, although I'm pretty sure Beast made a mistake for their goal then.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 2, 2011 18:52:36 GMT
Okay, then explain what the central defence pairing has done wrong. Each one individually has messed up at times, but the majority of goals conceded have come from set pieces or mistakes by our respective left backs, haven't they? I wasn't questioning the pairing per se because I think they are better defenders than they are showing at the moment. Especially wright. But if neither of them is going to try and head a ball, it is worth bringing in the likes of Sangare who is big and tall and does not need to work to head clear. I think the problem with the defence is minor but it is costing us our chance of promotion at the minute. If melville is not going to pull his finger out and get the existing defenders to work at doing the job right we should bring in one of the other players who is naturally suited to clearing high balls and thus might do it by accident without having to be coached. Coaching seemingly being a concept we ether do not understand or are incapable of conducting adequately.
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Post by windows on Feb 2, 2011 18:55:16 GMT
i agree with the above maybe clarkey isnt watching the same games.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 19:27:24 GMT
But it's not that simple. I don't quite see how you can say Worley is bad in the air, but that's not even the point. We do clear high balls in open play, that isn't the issue, but that's where the central defence would come into concern. The point is we concede too many goals from set pieces, that's the difference between us and other teams. Why would it be Worley and Wright's fault when they seem to deal with balls hoofed up to them most of the rest of the time?
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Post by paulayres on Feb 2, 2011 20:02:50 GMT
Its not a knee jerk reaction. 23 games without a clean sheet is a problem. If we had drawn games that we had lost by the odd goal then we would be in automatic places. A team that wants promotion has to keep the goals against colum low or the goals for high. We are failing to do this. I dont blame Melville I blame the players as they are making school boy errors. The miskick by Tonkin last night was a joke and the way they scored the winner from a corner was unforgivable.
I just feel that the defence is not as good as it should be. Still LLC must remain positive and keep our opinions to ourselves.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 20:23:58 GMT
Its not a knee jerk reaction. 23 games without a clean sheet is a problem. If we had drawn games that we had lost by the odd goal then we would be in automatic places. A team that wants promotion has to keep the goals against colum low or the goals for high. We are failing to do this. I dont blame Melville I blame the players as they are making school boy errors. The miskick by Tonkin last night was a joke and the way they scored the winner from a corner was unforgivable. I just feel that the defence is not as good as it should be. Still LLC must remain positive and keep our opinions to ourselves. Yes, absolutely, I told you that you couldn't state your opinion and weren't ever allowed to criticise Oxford. Do I have to start every single post with 'you are entitled to your opinion but'? If anything through making out that I said that what you're doing is placing positive opinions in a light which makes simply having one look unfavourable thus causing those of us who have a more positive view to hide ours. I'm not going to accuse you of telling me to keep my opinion to myself, though. And there is a reason that I said more in my post than 'kneejerk'. I did not at any point deny that we have a defensive problem. My problem was that you said with our current state we won't reach the playoffs and our dreams of automatic promotion were fading into the distance. That's a kneejerk because it's been just 2 games since we had the best form in the division, and were in the playoff spots with a real possibility of keeping on going up. Say we win the next 2 games, same situation. We've won 2 games in a row quite a lot recently with this defensive problem, that's not a dream fading into the distance.
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Post by yellowsubmarine on Feb 2, 2011 22:33:08 GMT
That's the point LLC. I don't think I would struggle at all! I think it should be mandatory that good CB pairings don't make mistakes. Did Wright, Foster or Beast actually make a mistake that cost us a goal last year?I can't remember one. That's not a fair comparison as we were playing in a lower league last year. I think our problem may be a lack of experience in the back four. Batt, Worley and Wright are all under 24 I believe. Tonkin is 30 but it's harder to organise from left-back. Ideally we would have a more experienced centreback to partner Wright or Worley but that doesn't always work i.e. Futcher. I would happily keep Worley and Wright together this season and let them get that experience as I think they will be all the better for it. Maybe we wont go up this season but I would really fancy our chances next year. We have some good players in our squad but there's not much league experience between them. I'm really enjoying our football at the moment. This team is totally the oposite to the Atkins sides, that everyone was so bored of, in terms of the way they play, age and experience. I personally wouldn't swap it
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Post by Yellowbrains on Feb 3, 2011 1:37:10 GMT
That's the point LLC. I don't think I would struggle at all! I think it should be mandatory that good CB pairings don't make mistakes. Did Wright, Foster or Beast actually make a mistake that cost us a goal last year? I can't remember one. I can't be bothered to look back through all of the videos, but I'm sure that plenty of the goals we conceded last season were down to individual errors from the defence. It just happens at this level.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 3, 2011 14:03:17 GMT
Its not a knee jerk reaction. 23 games without a clean sheet is a problem. If we had drawn games that we had lost by the odd goal then we would be in automatic places. A team that wants promotion has to keep the goals against colum low or the goals for high. We are failing to do this. I dont blame Melville I blame the players as they are making school boy errors. The miskick by Tonkin last night was a joke and the way they scored the winner from a corner was unforgivable. I just feel that the defence is not as good as it should be. Still LLC must remain positive and keep our opinions to ourselves. Yes, absolutely, I told you that you couldn't state your opinion and weren't ever allowed to criticise Oxford. Do I have to start every single post with 'you are entitled to your opinion but'? If anything through making out that I said that what you're doing is placing positive opinions in a light which makes simply having one look unfavourable thus causing those of us who have a more positive view to hide ours. I'm not going to accuse you of telling me to keep my opinion to myself, though. And there is a reason that I said more in my post than 'kneejerk'. I did not at any point deny that we have a defensive problem. My problem was that you said with our current state we won't reach the playoffs and our dreams of automatic promotion were fading into the distance. That's a kneejerk because it's been just 2 games since we had the best form in the division, and were in the playoff spots with a real possibility of keeping on going up. Say we win the next 2 games, same situation. We've won 2 games in a row quite a lot recently with this defensive problem, that's not a dream fading into the distance. That is true though. It isn't a kneejerk reaction its a fair assessment of our prospects as long as this extraordinary run of poor defending continues. I have been saying for some thime now that we can forget about promotion until the defence sorts itself out and I maintain that to be the case. In a way i admire your at-all-costs optimism LLC, but I think it is in this case seriously misplaced.
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Post by Marked Ox on Feb 3, 2011 16:36:48 GMT
That's the point LLC. I don't think I would struggle at all! I think it should be mandatory that good CB pairings don't make mistakes. Did Wright, Foster or Beast actually make a mistake that cost us a goal last year? I can't remember one. I can't be bothered to look back through all of the videos, but I'm sure that plenty of the goals we conceded last season were down to individual errors from the defence. It just happens at this level. I really hope he is on a wind up with that statement because if he/she believes that it is mindboggling. I can think of the Beast making errors this season, never mind last season! As for Fozzie, he was hardly error-prone, he made some absolute crackers!
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Post by ian on Feb 3, 2011 16:44:14 GMT
23 games ago, weren't people talking about how good the defence was - and how many clean sheets Clarke kept? People then were moaning about the few goals Oxford scored...
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Post by oufcrealist on Feb 3, 2011 16:50:47 GMT
23 games ago, weren't people talking about how good the defence was - and how many clean sheets Clarke kept? People then were moaning about the few goals Oxford scored... True. But one thing has been addressed. The other needs addressing as it has gone on a bit too long now.
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Post by Marked Ox on Feb 3, 2011 16:58:02 GMT
In the recent run of games the team has been set up to attack with the full-backs pushing forward as part of that. Also, plenty of the forward play originates from Worley/Wright/Batty and Tonks pulling the opponents about by moving it between them to create space. The full-backs pushing up though will leave gaps behind if they aren't covered then the opponents have space to break into which has happened, and this is down to the midfield to try to stop. That said, I would rather us try to win games playing entertaining football as we have been than go to trying to stop the opponents scoring and hitting on the break.
Where the team does need to look to defend far better is set-pieces and that isn't down to just the centre-backs but the whole team and coaching staff. The organisation at corners/free kicks etc is the problem. Man-mark opposing players for a start and make them work for the ball and on corners, a man on both posts to narrow the goal. To blame just the defence for conceding goals at set-pieces frankly lets all the other players/management off the hook when they are as equally to blame.
Also, we were at the best on the fringes on pushing for automatic promotion and are still in the play-off battle along with plenty of others in our 1st season back in the FL.
Saying all of the above, this forum is becoming more and more like RadOx after-match phone-ins, we lose and OUFC is doomed or we win and we are going to win the league!
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Post by oufcrealist on Feb 3, 2011 17:11:34 GMT
In the recent run of games the team has been set up to attack with the full-backs pushing forward as part of that. Also, plenty of the forward play originates from Worley/Wright/Batty and Tonks pulling the opponents about by moving it between them to create space. The full-backs pushing up though will leave gaps behind if they aren't covered then the opponents have space to break into which has happened, and this is down to the midfield to try to stop. That said, I would rather us try to win games playing entertaining football as we have been than go to trying to stop the opponents scoring and hitting on the break. Where the team does need to look to defend far better is set-pieces and that isn't down to just the centre-backs but the whole team and coaching staff. The organisation at corners/free kicks etc is the problem. Man-mark opposing players for a start and make them work for the ball and on corners, a man on both posts to narrow the goal. To blame just the defence for conceding goals at set-pieces frankly lets all the other players/management off the hook when they are as equally to blame.Also, we were at the best on the fringes on pushing for automatic promotion and are still in the play-off battle along with plenty of others in our 1st season back in the FL. Saying all of the above, this forum is becoming more and more like RadOx after-match phone-ins, we lose and OUFC is doomed or we win and we are going to win the league! We have conceded plenty of goals through individual errors as well as set pieces. 2 of the last 3 have been individual errors and could have meant a win and a draw instead of a draw and a loss! 1 point instead of 4. You can't blame the rest of the team for that. I do agree about the set pieces though.
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Post by Marked Ox on Feb 4, 2011 13:15:28 GMT
In the recent run of games the team has been set up to attack with the full-backs pushing forward as part of that. Also, plenty of the forward play originates from Worley/Wright/Batty and Tonks pulling the opponents about by moving it between them to create space. The full-backs pushing up though will leave gaps behind if they aren't covered then the opponents have space to break into which has happened, and this is down to the midfield to try to stop. That said, I would rather us try to win games playing entertaining football as we have been than go to trying to stop the opponents scoring and hitting on the break. Where the team does need to look to defend far better is set-pieces and that isn't down to just the centre-backs but the whole team and coaching staff. The organisation at corners/free kicks etc is the problem. Man-mark opposing players for a start and make them work for the ball and on corners, a man on both posts to narrow the goal. To blame just the defence for conceding goals at set-pieces frankly lets all the other players/management off the hook when they are as equally to blame.Also, we were at the best on the fringes on pushing for automatic promotion and are still in the play-off battle along with plenty of others in our 1st season back in the FL. Saying all of the above, this forum is becoming more and more like RadOx after-match phone-ins, we lose and OUFC is doomed or we win and we are going to win the league! We have conceded plenty of goals through individual errors as well as set pieces. 2 of the last 3 have been individual errors and could have meant a win and a draw instead of a draw and a loss! 1 point instead of 4. You can't blame the rest of the team for that. I do agree about the set pieces though. As said on the other thread, the team defends a corner, including midfielders and forwards, not just the defenders. Midfielders and forwards have made mistakes from corners that have led to goals conceded just as the defenders have. Also, mistakes always tend to be from an individual rather than a team unless it is a particularly bad game! I've always been coached that football is a team game, you defend as a team (including set-pieces) and attack as a team. Therefore, the problem of defending set-pieces is a team problem as I'm sure I see midfielders and forwards defending them as well as the likes of Harry Worley and Jake Wright. To just focus on the named defenders misses a huge part of the problem. Also, you can't highlight the individual errors by defenders and ignore those by midfielders or forwards. Or are the defenders at fault every time a midfielder or forward miss a clearance/header? Also, just focusing on the individual errors of defenders at corners/free-kicks (which happens at Premier Lg standard, nevermind L2, although the OUFC coaches and players should always be working to cut them out which I have no doubt they are) also misses the organisational issues OUFC have in defending them. Hence the point, imo, that the team should get back to basics of a man on each post to narrow the goal (instead of just on 1 post as currently happens) and man-marking the opposition. For free-kicks, man-marking and if in a position similar to a corner (offside not an issue) then a player on each post again with man-marking.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 4, 2011 19:13:36 GMT
I have to admit, it doesn't look like our players man mark from set pieces, particularly corners. I don't know if we don't try, but sorting out the man marking is, I think, a key tool in getting our defence sorted.
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