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Post by socrates on Feb 2, 2011 0:32:11 GMT
Great lad is Wilder but let's just look at his decision-making regarding defenders since he has been at the club
Three times now he has ripped up solid defences, whioch were all vulnerable in the air, and started again.
The first time was at the end of his first season, the second was the rebuilding job (the infamous Foster) when we went on a wobble and the third was at the start of this season with Creighton being jettisoned.
I'm not blaming him because, on the face of it Wright, Worley and Batt are good players individually on the ball. But as a backline is it working?
Of course not. 23 games without a clean sheet is a shameful record for any management team at any level of the game.
And what makes it more infuriating is that it all stems from the child-like inability to head the ball away from our six yard box or pick up players.
Wilder has to take responsibility. As does Melville, I'm afraid, who as defensive coach has to be seriously considering his future.
The Southend defeat was inevitable. Those that were there saw it coming a mile off. They knew our weaknesses and pumped cross after cross in.
So what do we do? The irony is there are very little options. Wilder can't rip up and start again because the transfer window is closed while playing Sangare and Gaughan as cb combo would be risky.
Kinni for Tonkin is one change as the lad keeps costing us goals
But that won't solve the aerial ricks. We need a new defensive coach. Someone who can drill these players to defend set pieces and to how to clear their lines
Sorry Mr Melville, your time is up.
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Post by ian on Feb 2, 2011 1:05:08 GMT
?? I'm confused?
Two threads, and the "case for" is an attack on the defence - which the defence can easily deal with...
League 2
Position Team Goals conceded 3 Rotherham 33 8 Gillingham 36 10 Oxford 37 11 Cheltenham 40 13 Northampton 37
Oxford conceded 5 against Bradford, but even so, the record is not too bad, with a team that has evolved and improved over the past weeks...
Has socrates sent KT his coaching CV?
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Post by benox on Feb 2, 2011 1:28:16 GMT
Can you blame the whole defence for it though? No team is carving us open, our goals conceded are generally from individual errors or set pieces. Can you really blame Melville for Wright's mistake on Saturday or Tonkins error tonight? That is out of the managements control.
The more worrying thing is the defending of set pieces. Coupled with our inability to actually threaten the oppositions goal from these situations, this is a shocking part of our game. The whole team have to take responsibility for this flaw, so just blaming the defence is a but short sighted. Something needs to be done though, and fast!
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Post by druid on Feb 2, 2011 6:28:35 GMT
Our best defender of set pieces is Beano.
Not sure the significance of that fact.
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Post by improvox on Feb 2, 2011 7:48:08 GMT
Very negative post that. I don't think you should be suggesting that Melville should resign. As mentioned above our general defending is GOOD. It's is poor defending from set pieces which I am sure this is being worked on by the coaching staff. Also individual mistakes and I am afraid that is down to the players themselves, inexperience? Nerves? Lack of concentration? Who knows... our defence is (fairly) young so I am sure this will improve in time.
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 2, 2011 8:10:17 GMT
Great lad is Wilder but let's just look at his decision-making regarding defenders since he has been at the club Three times now he has ripped up solid defences, whioch were all vulnerable in the air, and started again. The first time was at the end of his first season, the second was the rebuilding job (the infamous Foster) when we went on a wobble and the third was at the start of this season with Creighton being jettisoned. I'm not blaming him because, on the face of it Wright, Worley and Batt are good players individually on the ball. But as a backline is it working? Of course not. 23 games without a clean sheet is a shameful record for any management team at any level of the game. And what makes it more infuriating is that it all stems from the child-like inability to head the ball away from our six yard box or pick up players. Wilder has to take responsibility. As does Melville, I'm afraid, who as defensive coach has to be seriously considering his future. The Southend defeat was inevitable. Those that were there saw it coming a mile off. They knew our weaknesses and pumped cross after cross in. So what do we do? The irony is there are very little options. Wilder can't rip up and start again because the transfer window is closed while playing Sangare and Gaughan as cb combo would be risky. Kinni for Tonkin is one change as the lad keeps costing us goals But that won't solve the aerial ricks. We need a new defensive coach. Someone who can drill these players to defend set pieces and to how to clear their lines Sorry Mr Melville, your time is up. Is he actually our defensive coach though? I though mad dog was assistant manager and Melville first team coach. I was not aware that he is actually titled defensive coach? Melville will not be doing anything or instructing the players to do anything that Wilder is not happy with.
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Post by pete1984 on Feb 2, 2011 8:20:46 GMT
Nice post Socrates. Subsequent posts to yours have I think missed the point. We may not have the worst goals against in the top 10/12 teams BUT the goals we give away are nearly always crucial in the context of the individual game. The timing of some of the goals against have been just prior to halftime, as in the case last night. I dont blame Melville one bit, as he can only work with what hes got.
Weve just has a typical Wilder Jan Window. Concentrating on the midfield/forwards and neglecting the so so obvious lack of quality at the back. The decision to move Bulman out was bad enough, but to do the same with the Beast was crass. Also young Franks was a good prospect and should have stayed, of course we are never party to the politics of all this are we, look at the situation with Cole, remember him , we should as he is still being paid good money I assume ?
Bringing in Sangare looks a disaster waiting to happen. He looks a genuine conference journeyman from what I;ve seen (very little ) and his overall record. Gaughan is untried and by the way where is he ?? (unless he came on last night as missed some of the commentary last night ). So unless there is some loan rule we can use we are stuck with what we have.
If a team has a dodgy defence (we have ) then the principle is that the forwards get 2/3 goals to compensate, and we are not achieving that are we ?.
Chris Wilder has done a fantastic job, and made some great moves in the transfer market, BUT he has made a right old rickett with his defence strategy that is likely to cost the team a playoff place
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Post by Millman on Feb 2, 2011 9:15:15 GMT
For those defending Creights maybe you need to think again. He is a great defender at conference level, but his immobility means he just doesn't cut it in league 2. I have a feeling the same applies to Tonkin. Put a half decent winger against him and he can't keep up with them. The problem is I'm not sure Kinni is the answer either (this is the one area I'm surprised we have not strengthened).
As for set pieces both for and against this has been a problem for us for what seems like forever now. If our management team are working on them then maybe I suggest they try something new, because we just aren't getting better and its frustrating when the rest of our game is coming together nicely.
I said this a few weeks ago and I repeat it now we will achieve nothing more than an upper mid table finish unless we sort out our ability to keep a clean sheet.
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Post by moobs on Feb 2, 2011 10:00:55 GMT
I think it's a case of not having stability in defence, it's always changing. Strong defences usually evolve by virtue of playing together week in week out, the players know eachother inside out, the 2 centre halves develop an understanding, where to mark, when to push up etc. This takes time and if you keep changing your back line you're never going to get that consistency so if Wilder makes a defensive change again whether it's for the better or not it will always have a detrimental impact on our defence.
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Post by pete1984 on Feb 2, 2011 10:27:36 GMT
Millman I agree with what you say, ref The Beast and to a lesser extent Tonkin. What I meant was that the beast would be a far better option as cover than the two I mentioned ie Sangare and Gaughan. I admit he have seen very little of Sangare and nothing of Gaughan. Letting the Beast go was probably to do with money I assume (and a suspicion that he and Wilder fell out during FOSTERGATE )
Why oh why has Wilder left an evolving team so short of decent cover at the back, while at the same time pursuing midfielders constantly. We now have by my poor reckoning if Alfie and Deering are included, and Cole (of which we have not heard much ) at least 9/10 for the positions, and this for a squad that plays 4-3-3 in the main. Madness in my view
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Post by oufcrealist on Feb 2, 2011 10:29:12 GMT
?? I'm confused? Two threads, and the "case for" is an attack on the defence - which the defence can easily deal with... League 2 Position Team Goals conceded 3 Rotherham 33 8 Gillingham 36 10 Oxford 37 11 Cheltenham 40 13 Northampton 37 Oxford conceded 5 against Bradford, but even so, the record is not too bad, with a team that has evolved and improved over the past weeks... Has socrates sent KT his coaching CV? Very distorted view! I could say (more easily) that all the teams above us except Crewe have conceded less goals than us. The fact is we always concede and look like doing so in every match now. Some of the defenders are not up to the job and I have serious doubts whether any of them are good enough for the league above. The defence is no stronger now than it was a year ago.
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Post by Si Bradbury on Feb 2, 2011 11:26:12 GMT
For those defending Creights maybe you need to think again. He is a great defender at conference level, but his immobility means he just doesn't cut it in league 2. Creighton isn't/wasn't up to Football League. Wilder may the right decision to let go (if he was so great why isn't he playing in L2 with a new club?). Foster was a joke and deserved to go. I don't need to explain further but Wilder let him go and we didn't need players like him jeorpadising our attempt to get out of the conference. So great is Foster that Mansfield got rid and he hardly makes an appearance at Boro until recently. Wilder brought in Wright, who although is not on form, is a cracking signing, one which most would agree. His decision-making seems pretty spot on.
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Post by socrates on Feb 2, 2011 11:52:59 GMT
I think to defend the defence is indefensible
As I said, I don't blame individuals players - Tonkin aside, he has cost us far too many goals - but the management
Just think, if we had kept a clean sheet in 5 games out of the 23 where we would be in the table?
This inability to organise at set pieces and head the ball (it is no coincidence by the way that we are hopeless in the oppo box too from set pieces) will, sadly, cost us a playoff place
Before all the pretty patterns up front there needs to be drills-drill-drills for the defence. Day in day out in training.
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Post by The Fence End on Feb 2, 2011 12:22:34 GMT
Something needs to be done pretty rapidly or mid table obscurity awaits.
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Post by ian on Feb 2, 2011 12:36:22 GMT
It's so easy to call for people to be sacked... many on this forum would be sacked regularly if sackings were so regular outside of football. Many last year were calling for Saunders to be sacked at Wrexham and a year later, Wrexham, under Saunders, are challenging for promotion.
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Post by victor1986 on Feb 2, 2011 13:01:27 GMT
Socrates you are spot on and, on recent defensive displays, TFE is more than optimistic with his "mid table obscurity". It doesn't really matter WHO the 'defence' coach actually is but, one things for sure, we can't defend set pieces OR score from them! What goes on at training I shudder to think.
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Post by headingtonoldboy on Feb 2, 2011 13:29:28 GMT
I'm afraid at the moment, there isn't one.
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Post by pugs on Feb 2, 2011 13:33:29 GMT
Can you blame the whole defence for it though? No team is carving us open, our goals conceded are generally from individual errors or set pieces. Can you really blame Melville for Wright's mistake on Saturday or Tonkins error tonight? That is out of the managements control. The more worrying thing is the defending of set pieces. Coupled with our inability to actually threaten the oppositions goal from these situations, this is a shocking part of our game. The whole team have to take responsibility for this flaw, so just blaming the defence is a but short sighted. Something needs to be done though, and fast! how dare you come on here with a sensible, rational and objective opinion. This board needs a scapegoat and his name is Andy Melville......
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Post by moobs on Feb 2, 2011 13:52:14 GMT
When was the last time one of our centre backs went up and scored ?
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Post by Long John Silver on Feb 2, 2011 14:42:39 GMT
When was the last time one of our centre backs went up and scored ? No goals for any of our centre backs this season. I think that fact, along with the lack of a clean sheet in over 20 matches, with every opposition cross looking dangerous, does strongly suggest that our centrebacks are just not commanding enough. It's all very well Wright being a good tackler and reader of the game, but a centre backs bread and butter work should be taking care of balls into the box (and getting on the end of a few at our corners too).
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 15:36:27 GMT
I think the real problem lies in a lack of confidence and midfield ability in the air. The only good midfielder in the air we have is Asa Hall, and he plays no more than half a game. Wright and Worley are perfectly capable of dealing with hoofball, we've seen that happen again and again. I don't think I've seen a better centre back in the air than Worley, and considering his height, Wright's pretty damn good too. Not the centre-backs in the air. Is it Andy Melville? People seem to have forgotten our defensive record in the first part of this season and generally last season. He hasn't suddenly turned into a different person who can't deal with co-ordinating defences. What's different between this and last season? Beast? Worley's at least as good in the air and for my money better because he can move to reach headers, whereas Beast had a serious lack of pace. The fullbacks? They weren't any real problem last season or early this season. The management? The same. Really I think the main problem is confidence. Sacking people isn't going to solve that. And Pete, ever since our win at Chesterfield, the vast majority of games we've scored at least 2 goals. Our forwards are achieving our desired aim.
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Post by Millman on Feb 2, 2011 15:57:21 GMT
What has changed since the start of the season in my mind longliveclarkey is that we have been rather found out. Newly promoted we were rather unknown. Now all and sundry must know our 433 while great going forward leaves us a little open down the wings. Couple that to our inability to deal with crosses and set pieces (in fact anything swung in high) and it is a blueprint to get a goal from us.
This inability from set pieces isn't new we have had it all this season and most of last. Last season few teams have the quality or the pace to exploit it, now a league up and it is costing us.
Poor coaching or no ariely good players that's the question. I would not hazard a guess at which the problem is. However maybe Wilder's attempt to fix things springs from our new left winger and a move to dare I say 442 on occasion.
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Post by socrates on Feb 2, 2011 16:30:04 GMT
agree millman with sides having discovered our weakness
southend didn't have to play well at all to beat us, which is the most annoying aspect
all they had to do was whack in cross after cross
interestingly, and you won't like this longliveclarkey, southend clear reckoned our gk was poor under pressure. their corners were hit straight under his nose to to try to expose him
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Post by moobs on Feb 2, 2011 16:41:16 GMT
I still think we miss Creighton. Teams know we're vulnerable in the air and have prayed on this weakness, Creights would mop up all those high balls and clear them, then the opposition would soon run out of ideas and we'd see a different game.
What about when we play Gillingham ? That brute Akinfenwa is gonna have Worley for breakfast. Beast would have gone to war with him and would have been an interesting contest
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 2, 2011 16:52:59 GMT
I love this head in the sand attitude. 'Why worry the defence isn't doing its job because the team is doing well in the league.' Its laughable. If the team was not doing well then I guarantee the same peole who are saying everything is OK now would be moaning their heads off.
Despite our good goalscoring form every now and again our defensive inability will come back to bite us, like last night. I'm prettyy sure that we would have gone on to get a result had we not conceded another two laughable goals just before half time.
For those who think we are doing well despite our defesive frailty, just imagine how much better we would be doing had we not conceded sloppy goals to drop points against weak teams such as Stockport and Macclesfield.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 17:22:40 GMT
agree millman with sides having discovered our weakness southend didn't have to play well at all to beat us, which is the most annoying aspect all they had to do was whack in cross after cross interestingly, and you won't like this longliveclarkey, southend clear reckoned our gk was poor under pressure. their corners were hit straight under his nose to to try to expose himThat is interesting, and I have noticed other teams' fans slating clarke before, ranging from the ridiculous (cheltenham's 'he looked like he was scared of colliding with the post') to some reasonable comments, like 'he looked in two minds' against Northampton and Macclesfield. Then again I've noticed people constantly go on about other teams' goalkeepers in general, we seem to do that quite a lot here with the exception of Nikki Bull. Clarke's been prone to errors with crosses near him rather than ones further away which he bizzarely tends to deal with better, so I think you might be right there. On the other hand, it might just have been poor crossing
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Post by windows on Feb 2, 2011 17:46:51 GMT
I said last week on previous blogs, regarding the defence and the goalkeeper flapping, and recieved abusive comments for that , What a bunch of hippocrites you lot are, a couple of losses and the critiscising of the team and management has started. All the team needs is someone to defend better at set pieces and to vary the play a bit different and not be so predictable.Pretty football is good to watch but as we have seen recentley doesnt always win games.We have the players its just the application that is needed.Once again we made chances early on but did no score.CW is no doubt as frustrated as everyone else , once the players are on the pitch its down to them.Dont be so Negative.
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 18:08:01 GMT
I said last week on previous blogs, regarding the defence and the goalkeeper flapping, and recieved abusive comments for that , What a bunch of hippocrites you lot are, a couple of losses and the critiscising of the team and management has started. All the team needs is someone to defend better at set pieces and to vary the play a bit different and not be so predictable.Pretty football is good to watch but as we have seen recentley doesnt always win games.We have the players its just the application that is needed.Once again we made chances early on but did no score.CW is no doubt as frustrated as everyone else , once the players are on the pitch its down to them.Dont be so Negative. Aside from disproportionate and insulting opening comments, this is the only major bit where you've gone wrong. You can't say 'we have the players' and say 'we need someone to defend better at set pieces', it's one or the other. You present a very disjointed argument where you contradict yourself constantly. In my memory the abuse you received was mainly directed to the fact that you couldn't be positive while we were winning, and your criticism of Maclean. I mean, you've even contradicted yourself there. You can't assume the same people criticising you are now the ones criticising the defence, or even if they are that they're doing it to the same extent that you were. Show me a team that always wins games. Barcelona? Spain? We aren't them, we're a league two side. I don't quite see how our attacking play is predictable, and considering how many chances we create (as you rightly point out) our problem lies in varying the play. That doesn't work. Our actual problem, the one that separates us from everyone else is our ability to defend set pieces. This has never been denied, the question is how we sort it out. So which of your solutions is it? A new player? Keeping the faith? Varying the play? I'm genuinely stumped on this one and I think a lot of others are too.
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Post by bacardisteve on Feb 2, 2011 18:32:19 GMT
Today at 6:09pm longliveclarkey wrote: You can't say 'we have the players' and say 'we need someone to defend better at set pieces', it's one or the other.
Please enlighten me why it's one or the other? unless you are reading it wrong
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Post by longliveclarkey on Feb 2, 2011 18:34:18 GMT
I read that as meaning we need another player in order to stop our set piece problems, maybe I'm mistaken there. i was taking what he's said in the past and applying it here.
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