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Arsenal
Feb 15, 2017 22:26:42 GMT
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Post by holdsteady on Feb 15, 2017 22:26:42 GMT
Groundhog day.
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Post by MJB on Feb 15, 2017 22:29:00 GMT
Typically spineless second half. Wenger (incorrectly) blaming the officials for the second goal - living in cloud cuckoo land like usual.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Feb 16, 2017 8:10:05 GMT
Another nail in the coffin for the fans who want Wenger to go.
Contrarily, what is the point in proudly qualifying for the CL again, if you go out of it because you can't beat Barxa or Bayern? Seems entirely pointless
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Arsenal
Feb 16, 2017 8:24:07 GMT
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Post by holdsteady on Feb 16, 2017 8:24:07 GMT
In all those years of qualifying they have only made it past the quarter finals twice, in 15 of those years they haven't even made the last eight. This will be a seventh straight second round defeat.
As soon as they face one of the better teams they lose, you could probably add it to death and taxes as one of life's constants.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Feb 16, 2017 8:33:05 GMT
It all depends on what you view as success, as a sweeping generalisation.
If you think finishing in the top 4 and getting beaten by Bayern or Barca is good, you are an Arsenal fan. If you want to win the league and CL and get disappointed if you don't, you are a Chelsea fan.
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Post by Boogaloo on Feb 16, 2017 9:18:19 GMT
Sanchez did get an all important away goal though. Could be telling once the return leg heads back to the Emirates.
Joking aside, the problem isn't Wenger. He can only make do with what he's got in front of him. You would never see players like Rooney or Zlatan heading to the Emirates. Why is that? I'll tell you why - money. Arsenal, or more to the point owener Stan Kroenke, would never signoff on a contract where a player's agent is demanding £300K a week. Time and time again Arsenal have been trying to buy big names, yet get blown out the water by teams like PSG, Chelsea, Man City who are more than happy to pay £250-£300K a week for players. If you want to compete with the best you have to put your hand in your pocket, and Kroenke isn't prepared to do that.
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Post by Junior on Feb 16, 2017 9:23:09 GMT
He will soon be off at the end of the season. Need to be winning trophies at this stage of his career.
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Post by MJB on Feb 16, 2017 10:40:45 GMT
He will soon be off at the end of the season. Need to be winning trophies at this stage of his career. Perhaps he can take on the S***don job. He'll be used to a team that can't hack it when they play a better team who seem to a hoodoo over them.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Feb 16, 2017 10:48:51 GMT
Definitely what a lot of Gooners must be thinking. Yeh, I know he does a fantastic job with the balance sheet, gets them into the Champions League every season, etc etc but that trophy cabinet is looking a bid threadbare. Contract up at the end of the season. After 20 (21?) years he could be off.
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Post by horseman on Feb 16, 2017 11:49:59 GMT
To add a bit of balance, since the game became awash with money winning trophies is neither here nor there in real terms and it's not just Arsenal.if they pay Ozil and/or Sanchez the £300k per week that they are rumourced to be seeking does that suddenly make them better players and/or team?
Since man utd bowed to Rooneys wage demands have they won the champions league? in fact they spend money every year and are in the Europa.
If it wasn't for the change in format from the European cup there would be alot of considered "failures" every season.
Chelsea city and Manure have the financial clout but at least 2 of them will fail to win the champions league per season
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Arsenal
Feb 16, 2017 12:32:58 GMT
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Post by holdsteady on Feb 16, 2017 12:32:58 GMT
To add a bit of balance, since the game became awash with money winning trophies is neither here nor there in real terms and it's not just Arsenal.if they pay Ozil and/or Sanchez the £300k per week that they are rumourced to be seeking does that suddenly make them better players and/or team? Since man utd bowed to Rooneys wage demands have they won the champions league? in fact they spend money every year and are in the Europa. If it wasn't for the change in format from the European cup there would be alot of considered "failures" every season. Chelsea city and Manure have the financial clout but at least 2 of them will fail to win the champions league per season I can't see Real Madrid saying trophies are neither here nor there. If you are an Arsenal fan paying big money to go and watch would you be happy just to be be in it every year?
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Post by sihath on Feb 16, 2017 12:42:52 GMT
Football at the 'top' level is now all about brands and money.
Arsenal get the same amount of money for getting out of the group stage of the CL in one season as they would for winning the FA Cup 7 years on the trot.
Man Utd have sold their soul and now have, among lots of other "partners":
"EuroFood: Official Confectionary Partner of Manchester United for Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam" and "Cho-A Pharm Co Ltd. Official Pharmaceutical Partner of Manchester United for Korea and Vietnam"
Chelsea and Man City have owners who have unbelievably deep pockets.
If you've not been in the PL recently and benefit from the parachute payments you've got to gamble (or have a sugar daddy) to get to the promised land. Just have to hope the gamble pays off, and the sugar daddy doesn't get bored (or arrested).
It's certainly a funny old game.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Feb 16, 2017 13:11:36 GMT
Sanchez did get an all important away goal though. Could be telling once the return leg heads back to the Emirates. Joking aside, the problem isn't Wenger. He can only make do with what he's got in front of him. You would never see players like Rooney or Zlatan heading to the Emirates. Why is that? I'll tell you why - money. Arsenal, or more to the point owener Stan Kroenke, would never signoff on a contract where a player's agent is demanding £300K a week. Time and time again Arsenal have been trying to buy big names, yet get blown out the water by teams like PSG, Chelsea, Man City who are more than happy to pay £250-£300K a week for players. If you want to compete with the best you have to put your hand in your pocket, and Kroenke isn't prepared to do that. The thing is, I think Wenger's transfer policy has been a big weakness and he's not used his money wisely. David Dein used to nag Wenger to take a risk on player x or player y because he was so conservative with which players he'd sign. Wenger seems obsessed with signing wingers and central midfielders and when he signs a striker like Perez, won't play him. Sadly, I think Wenger's time is done at Arsenal. The game has moved on and the innovator from the 90s is a dinosaur in comparison now. Yes wages are a concern, but that's the going rate. When idiots like Man U blithely pay Rooney whatever he wants, they set the market.
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Post by Boogaloo on Feb 16, 2017 13:18:44 GMT
For what it's worth I don't think Wenger will leave Arsenal at the end of the season, as it seems he's got a job for life there. For his employer (Stan Kroenke) he ticks all the right boxes - qualifies for the group stages of the Champions League every year, and he is a 'Yes man'. You can't see Kroenke and Mourinho getting along. I know that that represents all that is wrong with the game, and the fans are quite rightly livid, but Kroenke is a businessman and making money is all he cares about, not trophies. He is also owner of the LA (previously St Louis) Rams, an American Football team that hasn't reached the playoffs since 2004. That tells you all you need to know.
As for Wenger, he's 67 now, and that age does he need the stress of trying to win a title with Chelsea, Man City etc. where anything less is a sackable offence? Or is he happy just trundling along, pick up his paycheck (highest in the Premier League last time I heard) for finishing in the top 4, which I expect he will do this season as well? Unless he's planning to go into retirement I would expect him to be there next season.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Feb 16, 2017 13:35:53 GMT
From the little I've seen, Wenger's body language looks pretty deflated this season and he is reacting to stuff that he hasn't before. What would concern me as an Arsenal fan is the club are missing out on the good young talent like Gabriel Jesus.
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Post by horseman on Feb 16, 2017 14:38:30 GMT
To add a bit of balance, since the game became awash with money winning trophies is neither here nor there in real terms and it's not just Arsenal.if they pay Ozil and/or Sanchez the £300k per week that they are rumourced to be seeking does that suddenly make them better players and/or team? Since man utd bowed to Rooneys wage demands have they won the champions league? in fact they spend money every year and are in the Europa. If it wasn't for the change in format from the European cup there would be alot of considered "failures" every season. Chelsea city and Manure have the financial clout but at least 2 of them will fail to win the champions league per season I can't see Real Madrid saying trophies are neither here nor there. If you are an Arsenal fan paying big money to go and watch would you be happy just to be be in it every year? My point is it makes no difference whether they win the league (and get a trophy)they still qualify and Arsenal fans have been aware of their model for years.Winning the league does not make them any more likely to win the champions league nor does overspending.
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Post by saddletramp on Feb 16, 2017 15:46:14 GMT
Do you know What makes me laugh ? People going on about " Its all about the money these days,you cant win anything if you aren't paying top dollar" As if this is something new ? Real Madrid in the 50s were a team of international "mercenaries". Germany (Bayern) in the 70s were paying the top wages (thats why Keegan went to Hamburg.) AC Milan with Gullit,Van Basten,Rijkaard in the 80s,do you really think they went to Italy for the sunshine ? Then back to Barca and Real in recent times. The only teams to do it consistently without breaking the bank were Ajax in the early Seventies and Liverpool in the late 70s early 80s.
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Post by Boogaloo on Feb 16, 2017 17:04:06 GMT
Do you know What makes me laugh ? People going on about " Its all about the money these days,you cant win anything if you aren't paying top dollar" As if this is something new ? Real Madrid in the 50s were a team of international "mercenaries". Germany (Bayern) in the 70s were paying the top wages (thats why Keegan went to Hamburg.) AC Milan with Gullit,Van Basten,Rijkaard in the 80s,do you really think they went to Italy for the sunshine ? Then back to Barca and Real in recent times. The only teams to do it consistently without breaking the bank were Ajax in the early Seventies and Liverpool in the late 70s early 80s. You say that, but transfer fees have gone silly. In 1984 Diego Maradona was sold to Napoli for a then World record £5million. In today's money that equates to £15.25million, which would buy you a backup centre-back.
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Post by tonyw on Feb 16, 2017 18:15:12 GMT
For all that it's fair to say that Arsenal don't spend the money that some of their competitors do - it's only just. For the last few years, the wage gap between them and Chelsea/Man U/Man C has varied a little - but it has consistently been less than the gap between Arsenal and Liverpool in 5th in the wage bill league (never mind Spurs or everyone else).
The difference between a 200m wage bill and a 225m wage bill is not big enough to justify failure to compete strongly for the title in over a decade. At some point, you have to be able to outperform that difference to justify being manager of one of the richest clubs in the country.
Also, y'know....Leicester.
And Wenger keeps making the same recruitment mistakes over and over again. A decade later, he still hasn't replaced Patrick Vieira in the middle of the park. They could easily have afforded Kante - and after last season would likely have been a more attractive destination than Chelsea, what with Champions League football to offer - but nope, they signed a couple more skillful forwards and a second class water carrier in Xhaka.
I've been saying for each of the last four years that Wenger should go......but this time, I genuinely think he might. Connected to that, given their current form compared to the competition, I'm not sure I think they'll finish in the top four this season either.
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Post by saddletramp on Feb 16, 2017 18:39:02 GMT
Do you know What makes me laugh ? People going on about " Its all about the money these days,you cant win anything if you aren't paying top dollar" As if this is something new ? Real Madrid in the 50s were a team of international "mercenaries". Germany (Bayern) in the 70s were paying the top wages (thats why Keegan went to Hamburg.) AC Milan with Gullit,Van Basten,Rijkaard in the 80s,do you really think they went to Italy for the sunshine ? Then back to Barca and Real in recent times. The only teams to do it consistently without breaking the bank were Ajax in the early Seventies and Liverpool in the late 70s early 80s. You say that, but transfer fees have gone silly. In 1984 Diego Maradona was sold to Napoli for a then World record £5million. In today's money that equates to £15.25million, which would buy you a backup centre-back. I didn't think we were talking about transfer fees,i thought we were talking about wages ? If its transfer fees,then with what Arsenal paid for Ozil,Sanchez and Xhaka (around £110 mill) then they are up with the worst of them.
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Post by Junior on Feb 16, 2017 19:26:33 GMT
And Ozil and Sanchez will all be on around 160k a week if not more. The. You've the likes of Cech and Giroud. Again they will be on a good 120k easy. Face it, Arsenal are underachieving and their fans who pay very high ticket prices have had enough. Wenger needs replacing.
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Arsenal
Feb 16, 2017 19:48:24 GMT
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Post by holdsteady on Feb 16, 2017 19:48:24 GMT
Last season the teams that finished a place above and below Arsenal, their competitors for the league, had lower transfer and wages spend. So it's unlikely to just be the money.
Wenger has (by his own reckoning) been offered jobs at Real Madrid and PSG, to big spenders. If the money was a problem he would of gone.
I think he got into a very well paid comfort zone and liked it to much to leave, that has fed down to the players.
People say stability breeds success but I don't think that's true at top level football, if it was Arsenal wouldn't have been so out performed by the likes of Real Madrid and Chelsea, who change managers regularly.
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Arsenal
Feb 16, 2017 20:43:10 GMT
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Post by grenobleroad on Feb 16, 2017 20:43:10 GMT
And Ozil and Sanchez will all be on around 160k a week if not more. The. You've the likes of Cech and Giroud. Again they will be on a good 120k easy. Face it, Arsenal are underachieving and their fans who pay very high ticket prices have had enough. Wenger needs replacing. The problem is when they make massive signings like Ozil, Sanchez and Cech. If they were the world class players arsenal thought they were getting why would Barcelona, Chelsea and real Madrid sell them?
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Post by Marked Ox on Feb 19, 2017 17:32:28 GMT
And Ozil and Sanchez will all be on around 160k a week if not more. The. You've the likes of Cech and Giroud. Again they will be on a good 120k easy. Face it, Arsenal are underachieving and their fans who pay very high ticket prices have had enough. Wenger needs replacing. The problem is when they make massive signings like Ozil, Sanchez and Cech. If they were the world class players arsenal thought they were getting why would Barcelona, Chelsea and real Madrid sell them? Why did Man Utd sell Ronaldo on that basis then?
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Arsenal
Feb 19, 2017 17:41:48 GMT
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Post by grenobleroad on Feb 19, 2017 17:41:48 GMT
The problem is when they make massive signings like Ozil, Sanchez and Cech. If they were the world class players arsenal thought they were getting why would Barcelona, Chelsea and real Madrid sell them? Why did Man Utd sell Ronaldo on that basis then? Because they couldn't keep him. Real Madrid and Barcelona are the pinnacle for most players careers. If they come knocking it's hard to stop the player going.
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Post by Marked Ox on Feb 19, 2017 17:49:21 GMT
Why did Man Utd sell Ronaldo on that basis then? Because they couldn't keep him. Real Madrid and Barcelona are the pinnacle for most players careers. If they come knocking it's hard to stop the player going. Sanchez is world class and he was frustrated at Barca when he left them. If rumours are to be believed Messi wants to leave Barca, would he no longer be world class if he left? Transfers happen for many reasons, including as you indicate players want to move on.
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Arsenal
Feb 19, 2017 18:50:34 GMT
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Post by grenobleroad on Feb 19, 2017 18:50:34 GMT
Because they couldn't keep him. Real Madrid and Barcelona are the pinnacle for most players careers. If they come knocking it's hard to stop the player going. Sanchez is world class and he was frustrated at Barca when he left them. If rumours are to be believed Messi wants to leave Barca, would he no longer be world class if he left? Transfers happen for many reasons, including as you indicate players want to move on. If Messi does leave Barcelona it will be when he is on the decline. Those rumours come around every two years then he gets his new contract. The word world class is thrown about too much. Sanchez is a fantastic player but he's getting in no one's world 11. There are exceptions though. Robben left real Madrid when he had his best years ahead of him for example.
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Post by mcf86 on Feb 20, 2017 18:36:37 GMT
Sutton Utd will sort em out!! Realistically, though they have no chance, do they?
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Post by pillock on Feb 20, 2017 18:38:30 GMT
Sutton Utd will sort em out!! Realistically, though they have no chance, do they? Depends. I'll give them 10% chance if Arsenal out a U21 side.
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Post by mcf86 on Feb 20, 2017 20:48:58 GMT
Sutton Utd will sort em out!! Realistically, though they have no chance, do they? Depends. I'll give them 10% chance if Arsenal out a U21 side. Very strong team for Ar*enal - but only 1-0 up at h/t. Sutton had a great chance just before the break with the gooners keeper throwing the ball out straight to 3/4 Sutton players in the penalty area!!
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