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Post by Bue Guado on Jan 29, 2017 18:24:49 GMT
As it stands there are more non-Prem teams (8) assured a place in the 5th round of the FA Cup than there are Prem teams (7): PREMIERSHIT | CHAMPIONSHIP | LEAGUE 1 | LEAGUE 2 | NON-LEAGUE | Arsenal | Blackburn | Millwall |
| Lincoln | Burnley | Fulham | OXFORD UNITED |
| Sutton | Chelsea | Huddersfield |
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| Man City | Wolves |
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| Man Utd |
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| Middlesbrough
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| Spurs
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| Leicester? | Derby? |
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If Leicester win their replay against Derby then that would even it up at 8 apiece, however, should Derby prevail, it would be 9 to 7 in favour of non-Prem teams. At half-time in the Man Utd v Wigan match, Lineker asked whether big-team squad-rotation, and the subsequent number of upsets this weekend, signifies the death of the FA Cup. Why should this be so? Because we get a never-ending whine of scousers (technical term) bemoaning having to pay large sums only to watch their B team lose to Wolves? We have the hypocrisy of people complain about not being able to nurture youth/home-grown players (so much so that they introduce the U23s into the Checkatrade Trophy), yet not wanting to blood their young players playing in the FA Cup and the League Cup. On their day any full-strength top-flight team would comfortably beat lower-league opposition, rendering cup upsets almost impossible, and leaving us with the same old faces competing in the semi-finals, year in, year out. Yet, big clubs underestimating their lower-league opposition is what fuels "The Magic of the FA Cup". Ok, the rate of upsets this year takes the shine off each one, but try telling that to the the lower-league teams finding themselves in the next round of the cup with a potentially club-sustaining revenue coming from a big tie. There were people on 5-Live yesterday calling for a place in the Champions League to replace a place in the UEFA cup as the reward for winning this tournament, in a bid to get their (big) teams to take the cup more seriously. Ok, yes, teams would take the FA Cup more seriously, as winning only a handful of matches offers the chance to play Barca, but then who cares about playing Watford away in the league next week? We'll just play the youth team for that...oh wait, now the league is losing its significance. This would also reduce the possibility of cup upsets, killing the true nature of the FA Cup. If you really want to introduce new regulations, why not introduce fines for clubs who make more than, say, 5 changes to their last league line-up (or if fines won't work for the rich clubs, maybe a 3-point league deduction)? This would allow teams to rest some players and wet the kids, while keeping the matches competitive for both teams. I see no real need for any mass-overhaul that others may be suggesting. The cup is what it has always been; the possibility for small teams to take on big ones, fund the immediate future of their club, and potentially gain national fame by beating the odds and getting through to the next round. So, to answer Gary; no, this is not the death of the FA cup. "The Magic of the FA Cup" is very much still alive.
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Post by Junior on Jan 29, 2017 18:27:59 GMT
FA cup winners get a CL spot. That'll sort it out.
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Post by Bue Guado on Jan 29, 2017 18:34:53 GMT
FA cup winners get a CL spot. That'll sort it out. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. If not, care to elaborate, seeing as I raised this point already? Or were you just trying to kill this thread dead before it had the chance to grow legs?
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Post by brassmonkey on Jan 29, 2017 18:40:08 GMT
I'm happy as it is. Let the prem teams treat it as a nuisance. Gives the rest of us a chance.
Sent from my SM-G930F using proboards
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Post by horseman on Jan 29, 2017 19:04:46 GMT
Each team names an 18 man squad for the F A Cup problem solved
That stops the so called elite only starting to take it seriously once Wembley is on the horizon
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Post by fistfullofdollars on Jan 29, 2017 20:45:32 GMT
Problem is that a few years back it was the top 4 that rested players for the fa cup, then it was most prem teams and now it seems that evem championship club couldn't care less (Leeds, Brighton, Newcastle all changing 9-10 players, I mean f*cking hell these are clubs that should be desperate for a big cup run, I mean most are not successful historically with exception of Leeds and yet they don't care), where does that end (noticed less than 10k turned up at millwall for their game v Watford today, not exactly enthusiastic support is it?) what the hell are the mid table prem teams doing, you can't tell me that they couldn't handle an assult on the fa cup when the league is not a problem for them, the likes of stoke, Watford, West Brom etc The cup is dying and whilst we clearly still care and it still works for us (provides opp to earn some money and get an upset and fans turn out for it) that clearly isn't true of the vast majority of the top 2 leagues Not sure of the answer, but it has to involve limiting the number of changes from previous games, as pretty much every prem/champ side made 9-10 changes, and for those that say that is ok, well the reality is that upsets will be devalued if teams continue to take the p*ss out of the competition and the general erosion of fans enthusiasm will lead to more low crowds, more changes and over time it dies IMO
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Post by Denissmithswig on Jan 29, 2017 22:28:31 GMT
Interesting to also point out that tonight it has been confirmed on twitter that the BBC asked to show the Lincoln game live after they won their replay instead of showing the Man U game. The FA refused the request and insisted Man U were shown instead.
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Post by concretebob on Jan 29, 2017 22:31:28 GMT
Interesting to also point out that tonight it has been confirmed on twitter that the BBC asked to show the Lincoln game live after they won their replay instead of showing the Man U game. The FA refused the request and insisted Man U were shown instead. Things like that really don't help do they? Got a link to the tweet?
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Post by Denissmithswig on Jan 29, 2017 22:49:43 GMT
Interesting to also point out that tonight it has been confirmed on twitter that the BBC asked to show the Lincoln game live after they won their replay instead of showing the Man U game. The FA refused the request and insisted Man U were shown instead. Things like that really don't help do they? Got a link to the tweet? I don't know how to link when posting on my phone but it is Dan Walker's and Lineker's twitter accounts.
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Post by Bue Guado on Jan 29, 2017 23:40:13 GMT
Fairs, I have some Man Utd supporting friends to apologise to...
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Post by saddletramp on Jan 30, 2017 7:46:42 GMT
Interesting to also point out that tonight it has been confirmed on twitter that the BBC asked to show the Lincoln game live after they won their replay instead of showing the Man U game. The FA refused the request and insisted Man U were shown instead. So how come,if Bolton beat Crystal Palace in the third round,Bolton v Man City was going to be the game ? If Palace won it was going to be Man United v Wigan. Why couldn't they have done that with Lincoln V Ipswich ?
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Post by saddletramp on Jan 30, 2017 8:04:25 GMT
In Reply to Bue Guado's statement, "So, to answer Gary; no, this is not the death of the FA cup. "The Magic of the FA Cup" is very much still alive" Ah no its not, As someone old enough to remember full houses all over the country on FA cup weekend,seeing half empty grounds all over the country does not say "magic" to me. Derby County v Leicester city,a local derby FFS,thousands of empty seats,9K at Blackburn/Millwall etc. Crystal Palace had 13K against Man City on Saturday,including 4.5K City fans,the corresponding PL game this season had 25K+ Despite all the changes made by PL teams,since the advent of the PL 25 years ago,a team from that league has won EVERY FA cup,magic.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Jan 30, 2017 8:14:04 GMT
Perhaps we need to accept that FA cup games will largely be played to stadiums that are not full.
At the top end, prices are high and I can understand people not wanting to go. The FA need to do more to get bums on seats. Whether it be mandating lower league teams play at home in 3rd round or set price limits in stadiums whose capacity is above 25k.
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Post by scotchegg on Jan 30, 2017 9:48:15 GMT
Every club has its own priorities, and pick teams accordingly. I don't have an issue with that at all, we fielded weaker teams in the early rounds too.
We had 3 games in a week, Newcastle, Bradford and Swindon. You could argue that the Swindon game is the least import, (it generates no money, result has little bearing on our final league position etc), but most of us would sacrifice cup victories for a win on Sunday.
I just want to see Oxford win every game they can, and I'm sure 99% of fans across the country want the same for their teams. But that doesn't change the fact that some games will always be more important than others.
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Post by cj on Jan 30, 2017 10:03:46 GMT
Why don't the FA fine clubs for fielding weakened sides. I believe Southend Utd were fined £3k for fielding three youth team players in the trophy this season which makes a mockery of the idea young players need to be blooded in the competition. Fine Liverpool for fielding a joke team against Wolves to even that up. Hopefully the prem teams apart from Man u (Man u home to Oxford hopefully) get drawn against each other to eliminate more of them in the next round.
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Post by Mark on Jan 30, 2017 10:19:10 GMT
With all the tv money floating around in the Premier League, it's obvious that Newcastle and Brighton don't want any distractions even though they are around 8 points clear in the Championship. Brighton particularly after getting so close last year.
For the Premier League teams, it is not getting relegated, or fighting for Champions League places.
Leaving perhaps a handful of Premier League teams who take the cup seriously, or not fielding full strength teams until the later rounds and the chance of getting to the final look possible.
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Post by scotchegg on Jan 30, 2017 10:28:45 GMT
Why don't the FA fine clubs for fielding weakened sides. I believe Southend Utd were fined £3k for fielding three youth team players in the trophy this season which makes a mockery of the idea young players need to be blooded in the competition. Fine Liverpool for fielding a joke team against Wolves to even that up. Hopefully the prem teams apart from Man u (Man u home to Oxford hopefully) get drawn against each other to eliminate more of them in the next round. So would you be happy if we were fined for putting out weaker teams in earlier rounds?
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Post by concretebob on Jan 30, 2017 10:30:54 GMT
Why don't the FA fine clubs for fielding weakened sides. I believe Southend Utd were fined £3k for fielding three youth team players in the trophy this season which makes a mockery of the idea young players need to be blooded in the competition. Fine Liverpool for fielding a joke team against Wolves to even that up. Hopefully the prem teams apart from Man u (Man u home to Oxford hopefully) get drawn against each other to eliminate more of them in the next round. That'll never happen because only big clubs are allowed to field weakened teams. Us smaller clubs have to field the strongest team possible. It's hypocrisy.
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Post by SteMerritt on Jan 30, 2017 10:34:09 GMT
Every club has its own priorities, and pick teams accordingly. I don't have an issue with that at all, we fielded weaker teams in the early rounds too. We had 3 games in a week, Newcastle, Bradford and Swindon. You could argue that the Swindon game is the least import, (it generates no money, result has little bearing on our final league position etc), but most of us would sacrifice cup victories for a win on Sunday. I just want to see Oxford win every game they can, and I'm sure 99% of fans across the country want the same for their teams. But that doesn't change the fact that some games will always be more important than others. Where does it end though? Would you not have an issue with, for example, Swansea, deciding that their away league game at Chelsea is most likely to end in defeat, so resting their main players for that so they are fresher for the following weeks more winnable match against West Ham? There is to me a big difference between rotating a few players, and picking the youth team (which, basically, Leeds did yesterday).
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Post by foley on Jan 30, 2017 10:37:09 GMT
With all the tv money floating around in the Premier League, it's obvious that Newcastle and Brighton don't want any distractions even though they are around 8 points clear in the Championship. Brighton particularly after getting so close last year. For the Premier League teams, it is not getting relegated, or fighting for Champions League places. Leaving perhaps a handful of Premier League teams who take the cup seriously, or not fielding full strength teams until the later rounds and the chance of getting to the final look possible. One things that occurred to me is the great divide within the Premiership. So Hull, Bournemouth etc put out a reserve side and they are hammered by lower league teams. The big 6 (with honourable exception of Liverpool) have strong back up. So yesterday man U played Rooney , the German guy I can't be bothered to find out his surname (Sebastian), Martial etc. Arsenal Wellbeck, Walcott, Chamberlain. The FA Cup is normally won by a top 6 club as they have the squads to put out very good teams regardless of whether they can be bothered to play their first team or not.
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Post by scotchegg on Jan 30, 2017 11:24:27 GMT
Every club has its own priorities, and pick teams accordingly. I don't have an issue with that at all, we fielded weaker teams in the early rounds too. We had 3 games in a week, Newcastle, Bradford and Swindon. You could argue that the Swindon game is the least import, (it generates no money, result has little bearing on our final league position etc), but most of us would sacrifice cup victories for a win on Sunday. I just want to see Oxford win every game they can, and I'm sure 99% of fans across the country want the same for their teams. But that doesn't change the fact that some games will always be more important than others. Where does it end though? Would you not have an issue with, for example, Swansea, deciding that their away league game at Chelsea is most likely to end in defeat, so resting their main players for that so they are fresher for the following weeks more winnable match against West Ham? There is to me a big difference between rotating a few players, and picking the youth team (which, basically, Leeds did yesterday). Their argument would be that they can pick any eligible player they like, and did so thinking that they could still win the game. They got caught out, but if they'd won no one would have cared. Teams are always resting players as they look at their own priorities, there's nothing new in that. Your example about the PL is no different, and it happens all the time. But how do you force teams to play their strongest 11, and who decides what that is?
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Post by horseman on Jan 30, 2017 11:39:02 GMT
Where does it end though? Would you not have an issue with, for example, Swansea, deciding that their away league game at Chelsea is most likely to end in defeat, so resting their main players for that so they are fresher for the following weeks more winnable match against West Ham? There is to me a big difference between rotating a few players, and picking the youth team (which, basically, Leeds did yesterday). Their argument would be that they can pick any eligible player they like, and did so thinking that they could still win the game. They got caught out, but if they'd won no one would have cared. Teams are always resting players as they look at their own priorities, there's nothing new in that. Your example about the PL is no different, and it happens all the time. But how do you force teams to play their strongest 11, and who decides what that is? i think you can determine their strongest team by the one that plays most weeks but you could never enforce such a ruling. they have to name a "squad" for champions league hence why i said 18 man squad for the fa cup At the end of the day the one factor that has allowed this to happen with championship clubs is "Money" 2 games a week never used to be a problem until such crazy money was available. Also everone goes on about Liverpool but Wolves did the same anyway. At the moment our club is on a high so there is a feel good factor but it's not so long ago that people were not bothered about a cup game with Charlton (myself incuded) so it's not solely these major changes, wall to wall football on tv does not help either.
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Post by scotchegg on Jan 30, 2017 11:59:44 GMT
I totally agree that it's about the money. As was said on Radio Oxford after the game, would Newcastle choose FA Cup semifinals or promotion? We can probably split the forum 50/50 on those that want Sutton at home to get through or Man Utd away for the pay day.
Taking £1m from a game at Old Trafford is massive for us. So to is the £100m promise of the PL for Newcastle.
It would be great to romanticise about the cup, but the reality is that it is just one part of an entire season and everyone picks their prioritise accordingly.
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Post by SteMerritt on Jan 30, 2017 12:47:01 GMT
Their argument would be that they can pick any eligible player they like, and did so thinking that they could still win the game. They got caught out, but if they'd won no one would have cared. ...yet if we do that in the Checkatrade trophy... It's messed up. I suppose I have a romantic view of the FA Cup, I think anyone 40+ will have. I just don't get the view that playing 4 or so extra games will have any impact on a team's promotion or relegation prospects. I would love to see some facts that prove a long cup run causes damage to a league campaign. If you look at our 1985/6 season (first season in the top flight and Milk Cup win of course) you could argue that the Milk Cup run actually boosted our league performance. I also think it is sad that now the fans aren't considered at all, just the moneymen. I can't believe that Bournemouth fans wouldn't enjoy a cup run this season - they seem to be pretty safe from relegation so why not try and win something? It is, after all, the whole point. If Southampton win the league cup, their fans will be buying the DVD of the day - you don't buy a DVD for avoiding relegation.
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Post by oxfordboy on Jan 30, 2017 12:54:38 GMT
As long as the prize money stays the same let the big teams play as weak as they want, if we can cause an upset or 2 every couple of years because of it then it can only help us
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Post by scotchegg on Jan 30, 2017 13:08:29 GMT
Their argument would be that they can pick any eligible player they like, and did so thinking that they could still win the game. They got caught out, but if they'd won no one would have cared. I also think it is sad that now the fans aren't considered at all, just the moneymen. Totally agree, but unfortunately that goes far deeper than the early rounds of the FA cup. When I was growing up, Liverpool used to win pretty much everything with about 15 players and the FA cup was something the whole family would watch. But unfortunately those days are long behind us and we will never see them again.
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Post by horseman on Jan 30, 2017 13:57:42 GMT
The Fa don't help their own cause, they allowed a team to withdraw from their competition so they're hardly going to implement anything to stop what's happened over this weekend.
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Post by tonyw on Jan 30, 2017 19:06:14 GMT
The money available in the Premier League really is on a completely different scale to the FA Cup.
I believe the prize money for winning the competition (including bonuses for every round) is of the order 4.5 - 5 million. Add on a few million worth of TV money. One season of being in the Premiership is now worth more than 90 million in Prize + TV Money.
So any club that is thinking about their finances rather than simply glory is going to massively prioritise the league.
And there's just no way you can financially plug that gap with fines and/or prize money.
Unless the Premier League agrees to start docking points for their clubs fielding weakened teams in the FA Cup, then I don't see how this demise of the Cup is going to be arrested. And there's precious little sign of them doing that - in fact, by scheduling a round of midweek Premiership matches to immediately follow the 4th round of the Cup, they seem to be doing everything they can to ensure that their teams don't take the competition seriously.
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