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Post by Yellow River on Dec 17, 2016 10:44:57 GMT
Just for a bit of perspective, and to stop the thread going off on obscure tangents about what people THINK has happened here are a few things to ponder. These are my personal views, not necessarily those of OxVox, but I think I'm safe in saying the two are pretty close. Firstly, the actions of the stewards last week were at the instruction of the safety guy (and made worse by their own ineptitude at dealing with people). It was not a result of any fans complaining that they couldn't see and it was not a directive from the club or board, or FA or EFL either. Apparently DE and GBT were as bemused as the rest of us when they looked across and saw the flags and banners coming down. The new safety guy seems to have taken it upon himself to use a huge sledgehammer to crack a very small nut. People have reacted to what they view as being unfairly or aggressively treated. Many others have expressed sympathy for them. We're football fans, British football fans at that, it's what we do, it's in our nature to be slightly anti establishment. If you prod the sleeping animal enough times it will react. Just look at Brexit. The sort of reaction since last Saturday is in our DNA. This a football stadium, not a theatre, cinema, or the opera. Personally I find it disappointing, and symptomatic of the modern world, that anybody can even think waving a few flags can be a Health & Safety issue and needs some sort of rules about where and when they can be waved. As I've said before, they're flags not f*cking samurai swords!!! It seems as if DE and GBT have tried to diffuse things after the event, but may have not been particularly well advised by the safety guy. I think they have been put in a very awkward position and probably wish the clock could be turned back seven days. It can't of course, so what next? OxVox have spoken with the Ultras and with DE and GBT. Those parties have also spoken to each other. Hopefully it will all be resolved to everybody's satisfaction before the next home game with a little more talking. As a final thought, what has changed to illicit last Saturday's events? Well, the fans are the same, their actions have not changed. The directors of the club are the same, their views on fan engagement have not changed. The stadium layout has not changed and people still inhabit the same space doing the same thing. The rules and regulations have not changed. The safety officer (what a ridiculous title!) HAS changed and the stewarding of the stadium HAS changed. It seems clear to me where the problem stems from and who needs to step back and temper their approach. Good post Colin.
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Post by Junior on Dec 17, 2016 10:45:15 GMT
Let's just hope the message gets across to the agency stewards who'll be out in force die the Northampton game..
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Post by myles on Dec 17, 2016 10:46:33 GMT
Personally I find it disappointing, and symptomatic of the modern world, that anybody can even think waving a few flags can be a Health & Safety issue and needs some sort of rules about where and when they can be waved. As I've said before, they're flags not f*cking samurai swords!!! As a safety professional, I agree with this. Of course there is a risk that the flagpoles can be used as weapons, but if the club believes that this risk is so low that they can allow flags into the ground, any issues over when they can and can't be waved is one of convenience for other supporters and not safety, and it's plain wrong to claim otherwise.
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Post by Colin B on Dec 17, 2016 10:53:33 GMT
Personally I find it disappointing, and symptomatic of the modern world, that anybody can even think waving a few flags can be a Health & Safety issue and needs some sort of rules about where and when they can be waved. As I've said before, they're flags not f*cking samurai swords!!! As a safety professional, I agree with this. Of course there is a risk that the flagpoles can be used as weapons, but if the club believes that this risk is so low that they can allow flags into the ground, any issues over when they can and can't be waved is one of convenience for other supporters and not safety, and it's plain wrong to claim otherwise. Thanks for that Myles. I saw that you'd replied, and knowing your background in H&S, I wondered what your response would be? I think you give a balanced view, that maybe Mr Mixter could learn from. Didn't you used to sit on the club's safety advisory panel? Maybe you could have a word?
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Post by oufcgav on Dec 17, 2016 11:23:15 GMT
I think one thing to come out of this is the communication from the club needs to improve (again). Some of the little things that are happening for good reasons (eg the ticket checks to ensure people are not abusing concession tickets) would be better received if communicated (and indeed would likely have a deterrent effect in itself) rather than just having some rude & aggressive agency staff demanding to see your ticket outside the turnstile without being able to explain why. Again with the flag thing, the ultras are there from early enough in the day putting up banners, the safety guy could just have wandered over and said hey guys, we've noticed big flags going up during the game, can we just keep it to set events, as opposed to sending some stewards over to demand it stops without clear reason/explanation using threats of police.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Dec 17, 2016 11:49:20 GMT
A few decades ago, bouncers on the doors of pubs and clubs often acted in an aggressive, confrontational way, leaving you believing that if you said the wrong thing you might have an 'accident' down the nearest back alley. Doormen are now, I believe, carefully vetted and must wear armbands to show they are professionals in their field and not just random thugs.
Too much to hope that stewards at football might one day be subject to similar rigours? If nothing else, an armband with a number - and perhaps even a surname - on it might make them think more carefully about their actions.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Dec 17, 2016 12:30:33 GMT
In short, Defy and Display and bollocks to those who say otherwise. It's our club afterall. Yeah, it is. Until it comes to covering the two million pounds a year deficit. Then people are happy to let it be Mr Eales' club. Seriously, if I were spending that sort of money and somebody actually dared say that to me - that they'll do what they like despite what I'm saying, how I'm saying it or WHY I'm saying it, purely because they feel they have a god given right - I'd wonder why I bothered. My season ticket costs £400 per year. Mr Eales spends FIVE THOUSAND TIMES that amount every season keeping my football club alive. And while that doesn't give him a free pass to do whatever he wants, it means he should get more than an attitude of 'Shove off dickhead, let's all purposefully do something you're telling us not to, because we can.' The entitlement of some of our fans is appalling. This thread and this situation as a whole has brought out some really ugly sides to an awful lot of people. What you write is essentially true, Mr Birdio, but I think you miss one point: while you, Mr End and I put out a smallish amount supporting our club we do so for nothing more than 'enjoyment', Mr Eales is not, I think, spending money simply for his pleasure. He is investing to get something financial back, I believe. If not he may well have been gone by now, maybe not. Supporters like you, Mr End and even part-timers like me will be here (insh'allah) after Mr Eales has gone, most likely - in that sense it's our club too; and without our very decent support it wouldn't be Oxford United. In any case this has been a bit ugly, but the ugliness stems from the ineptitude of the club's handling of what is in reality a minor issue; all the way up to where the buck stops. I hope it gets resolved so that those who like flags and noise get it, and those who don't, don't. Last - it seems a bit dog in the manger to sit among the flag wavers when you don't like to; moving would be the sporting thing to do, there are plenty of available seats in the North Stand with a great view where one can enjoy the football while dipping into Wives and Daughters during the langourous bits.
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Post by myles on Dec 17, 2016 12:50:12 GMT
Thanks for that Myles. I saw that you'd replied, and knowing your background in H&S, I wondered what your response would be? I think you give a balanced view, that maybe Mr Mixter could learn from. Didn't you used to sit on the club's safety advisory panel? Maybe you could have a word? I do still sit on the stadium safety advisory group. The last meeting was just over two weeks ago, but I wasn't able to attend owing to work commitments. I have, however, emailed the chair of the group to find out if the flag issue was discussed at the meeting and, if so, whether the driver has come from the club internally or if there are external pressures being applied.
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Post by sarge on Dec 17, 2016 12:51:07 GMT
A few decades ago, bouncers on the doors of pubs and clubs often acted in an aggressive, confrontational way, leaving you believing that if you said the wrong thing you might have an 'accident' down the nearest back alley. Doormen are now, I believe, carefully vetted and must wear armbands to show they are professionals in their field and not just random thugs. Too much to hope that stewards at football might one day be subject to similar rigours? If nothing else, an armband with a number - and perhaps even a surname - on it might make them think more carefully about their actions. good points Pete B SIA licenced, these days, bouncers, no less aggressive though & unless you have telescopic vision their license, on display, is very hard to read.... Stewards MUST have a visible, easily readable number displayed ( Green Guide) Problem is stewards should be qualified level 2 stewards or ongoing training and assessment for level 2 steard, however agencys who provide 'security'personel (who are not stewards), sign up SIA bouncers, who are NOT stewards , and hire them out as 'stewards' even though they have no working knowledge of the Green Guide steward requirement, which IMO, is why weve had thuggish agency stewards imposed and bullying fans at recent games!
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Post by Jem on Dec 17, 2016 14:33:58 GMT
Just to add some of my thoughts on the subject!
It's important to note, putting the current 'flag gate' issue to one aside for a moment, that many of the comments/complaints we've received from members regarding stewarding at the stadium, actually started well before the new safety guy was in post. To put all the blame on the new man is, in my view, wrong. There has been a build up of discontent and it goes back a fair length of time.
Equally, GBT has continued to communicate with us on a wide range of issues and has never not listened and/or acted upon concerns.
The situation could definitely have been handled better, everyone agrees on that, the task now is to get the issues sorted and move forward together - Club and fans.
As a supporters Trust, we've looked to help in getting people talking and that has/is happening and I'm sure the stewarding issues will start to be resolved for the good of everyone involved with the football club we all love.
Cheers!
Jem
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Post by lambchop on Dec 17, 2016 14:41:09 GMT
Heres my take on it is this. I'm not sure how this'll be recieved or even if people feel the way I do but here goes. Daryll Eales is a football man and Greig Box Turnbull is a life long Oxford fan. I can't believe for one minute they don't want flags and colour at our games. It seems to me that this new safety officer joker and these agency workers have gone on a power trip. As with anyone who feels they're more important than they actually are they should be ignored. If Eales and GBT don't want flags, atmosphere and colour at our games then they should tell us that themselves. I doubt they will as they are football people and if they do then it's clear they perhaps aren't great for the club. As an Oxford United fan I want to stand up to these agency and safety officer idiots and defy them. It's our club and we WILL support it how WE want. Not waving and displaying flags is letting them win. So on Boxing Day bring your flags regardless of what size it is. Hang it up where ever you want to. Wave it whenever you want to. f*ck it, bring the gigantic Ox spearing the Robin surfer and cover the entire East Stand midway through the first half and make an almighty racket whilst doing so. In short, Defy and Display and bollocks to those who say otherwise. It's our club afterall. I'm sure if you covered the whole east stand with the surfer during the match you would lose a lot of support that the Ultras have. Very bad idea.
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 17, 2016 17:02:58 GMT
Heres my take on it is this. I'm not sure how this'll be recieved or even if people feel the way I do but here goes. Daryll Eales is a football man and Greig Box Turnbull is a life long Oxford fan. I can't believe for one minute they don't want flags and colour at our games. It seems to me that this new safety officer joker and these agency workers have gone on a power trip. As with anyone who feels they're more important than they actually are they should be ignored. If Eales and GBT don't want flags, atmosphere and colour at our games then they should tell us that themselves. I doubt they will as they are football people and if they do then it's clear they perhaps aren't great for the club. As an Oxford United fan I want to stand up to these agency and safety officer idiots and defy them. It's our club and we WILL support it how WE want. Not waving and displaying flags is letting them win. So on Boxing Day bring your flags regardless of what size it is. Hang it up where ever you want to. Wave it whenever you want to. f*ck it, bring the gigantic Ox spearing the Robin surfer and cover the entire East Stand midway through the first half and make an almighty racket whilst doing so. In short, Defy and Display and bollocks to those who say otherwise. It's our club afterall. I'm sure if you covered the whole east stand with the surfer during the match you would lose a lot of support that the Ultras have. Very bad idea. I suspect that Fence End didn't expect you to take that bit literally!
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Post by lambchop on Dec 17, 2016 18:39:33 GMT
I'm sure if you covered the whole east stand with the surfer during the match you would lose a lot of support that the Ultras have. Very bad idea. I suspect that Fence End didn't expect you to take that bit literally! There was no indication that he didn't. .... please people use your winky emojis or this thread could get out of hand and descend into chaos
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 17, 2016 19:04:45 GMT
I suspect that Fence End didn't expect you to take that bit literally! There was no indication that he didn't. .... please people use your winky emojis or this thread could get out of hand and descend into chaos I'm not entirely sure what a winky emoji is, but I pretty certain that I don't have one. Maybe it's a young persons thing, or something they used to sell in that shop with the painted out windows at the back of station rd. Old fashioned letters and words were good enough for Shakespear, Dickens and AA Gill, so I'll stick with them.
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Post by oufcyellows on Dec 17, 2016 19:08:52 GMT
; )
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Post by bicesterox on Dec 17, 2016 19:13:20 GMT
Stewarding has gone down hill over the last couple of years. Even back in the Manor days the club had us training for qualifications in both stewarding and first aid etc. The difference then was the stewards were all Oxford fans and all employed directly by the club (except when Wycombe used to help out, which we did for them as well). Now as mentioned numerous times, its probably 80% agency and that is wrong, they dont give a f*ck about us or our club. Why have so many of our own stewards left? That needs looking at as well, was it cost cutting by the club, which is strange as they paid us a set amount per game, now they pay an agency fee on top, or have they quit for other reasons?
Personally I left after 1 season at the Kassam as I was having to commute from Gainsborough and couldnt gaurantee being on time especially for night games, and the feeling of a 'team' wasnt the same as it was at the Manor away end.
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Post by lambchop on Dec 17, 2016 20:33:34 GMT
There was no indication that he didn't. .... please people use your winky emojis or this thread could get out of hand and descend into chaos I'm not entirely sure what a winky emoji is, but I pretty certain that I don't have one. Maybe it's a young persons thing, or something they used to sell in that shop with the painted out windows at the back of station rd. Old fashioned letters and words were good enough for Shakespear, Dickens and AA Gill, so I'll stick with them. ;-)
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Post by oufcyellows on Dec 20, 2016 8:48:03 GMT
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Post by makv on Dec 20, 2016 10:17:04 GMT
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Post by Paul Cannell on Dec 20, 2016 10:26:00 GMT
I'm not entirely sure what a winky emoji is, but I pretty certain that I don't have one. Maybe it's a young persons thing, or something they used to sell in that shop with the painted out windows at the back of station rd. Old fashioned letters and words were good enough for Shakespear, Dickens and AA Gill, so I'll stick with them. This here is a 'winky emoji' (I think, eyes are fucked) Dickens would have used every available emoji if he had had the chance, the logorrhoeaic bastard. And what the f*ck is this with AA Gill? Holy motherfucking shite, this forum's really going to the dogs.
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Post by pottersrightboot on Dec 20, 2016 10:55:21 GMT
Shakespear 😉
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Post by Paul Cannell on Dec 20, 2016 11:31:00 GMT
Hmph. Mr Rightboot - if you're talking about William Shakespearre, the Bard of Avon, his name was spelt loads of ways as was the spirit of the age. However, being a gentleman of quality you are indubitably referring to Robbie Shakespeare; for which I offer you the very richest of seasonal salutes. Sah!
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Post by Barts on Dec 20, 2016 11:40:05 GMT
Hmph. Mr Rightboot - if you're talking about William Shakespearre, the Bard of Avon, his name was spelt loads of ways as was the spirit of the age. However, being a gentleman of quality you are indubitably referring to Robbie Shakespeare; for which I offer you the very richest of seasonal salutes. Sah! I thought he was talking about Craig Shakespeare the Leicester City coach and ex baggies player!!
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Post by sarge on Dec 20, 2016 14:00:34 GMT
Interesting anyone told Mixter?
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Post by oufcyellows on Dec 20, 2016 16:36:28 GMT
2moro is oxford/Swindon half and half scarfs. And rumour has it the 24th is yellow smoke canisters
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Post by Barts on Dec 20, 2016 19:42:43 GMT
2moro is oxford/Swindon half and half scarfs. And rumour has it the 24th is yellow smoke canisters Rumours rife that on boxing day they'll have a plane with a banner saying 'say no to the forth stand'!!
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Post by jimmycarterxi on Dec 21, 2016 0:39:51 GMT
It seems clear to me where the problem stems from and who needs to step back and temper their approach. Yep, and it's almost unbelievable that this problem area has been allowed to disrupt the club so much, so quickly. Hope future talks go well. Surely most rules or regulations - and Sarge has published a comprehensive list on this thread - are open to interpretation. Well, interpret in favour of the fan rather than the whims of, dare I say, a jobs worth with a little too much power and too many willing enforcers. Didn't we appoint a fan a year or so ago who would be employed by the club to get across fans views? John Lennon? Was he a very active poster on here until. I would have thought he could act as a key person to fix this problem? Not sure if he still works for club though??
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Post by lambchop on Dec 21, 2016 8:47:05 GMT
Hmph. Mr Rightboot - if you're talking about William Shakespearre, the Bard of Avon, his name was spelt loads of ways as was the spirit of the age. However, being a gentleman of quality you are indubitably referring to Robbie Shakespeare; for which I offer you the very richest of seasonal salutes. Sah! I can't believe you guys still think that old Will was one person instead of the collective "he" actually was!
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Post by lambchop on Dec 21, 2016 8:48:31 GMT
Yep, and it's almost unbelievable that this problem area has been allowed to disrupt the club so much, so quickly. Hope future talks go well. Surely most rules or regulations - and Sarge has published a comprehensive list on this thread - are open to interpretation. Well, interpret in favour of the fan rather than the whims of, dare I say, a jobs worth with a little too much power and too many willing enforcers. Didn't we appoint a fan a year or so ago who would be employed by the club to get across fans views? John Lennon? Was he a very active poster on here until. I would have thought he could act as a key person to fix this problem? Not sure if he still works for club though?? Good point
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Post by Paul Cannell on Dec 21, 2016 9:43:05 GMT
Hmph. Mr Rightboot - if you're talking about William Shakespearre, the Bard of Avon, his name was spelt loads of ways as was the spirit of the age. However, being a gentleman of quality you are indubitably referring to Robbie Shakespeare; for which I offer you the very richest of seasonal salutes. Sah! I can't believe you guys still think that old Will was one person instead of the collective "he" actually was! The Luther Blissett of his day, eh?
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