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Post by charliesghost on Aug 18, 2016 21:44:44 GMT
TBH I would be really surprised if this has not all been discussed in the work done by Oxvox? To be fair, stuff Oxvox, and I say that with no disrespect meant, but why wouldn't this have been presented to DE himself as soon as possible anyway? It was - a long time ago. Together with the rationale for why purchasing the Kassam Stadium would not be viable. The same views were shown to OxVox (albeit without the detail, which is proprietary to the property consultant, who did the work unpaid and whom OxVox have not asked to meet). Sometimes, people just have to find out for themselves. Often the hard way. I can say for sure that I've certainly made that mistake in my career before. 'surely, if only a reasonable person could...'. It's a gentle, benign form of arrogance that most of us are subject to from time to time; the belief that something blatantly obvious and easy has been overlooked. By Kelvin; by IL; by me.... And the truth is that ever since I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about, I remain desperately keen to be proven wrong. The day that I wake up and OUFC own the Kassam Stadium (assuming some horrendous pact has not had to be struck) I will be so, so, so happy. A tiny bit less happy than if we actually owned a satisfactory stadium, it's true, but pretty damn happy none the less. Sadly, though, nothing I read from any party involved tells me that my prognosis has changed one little bit. When it comes to the question of WHY people would believe differently from the bald truth, there is a Pied Piper in all of this. Sort of the Oxford version of the Duke of York. He can lead gullible men up to the top of the hill.... but has an un-erring knack of leading them down again. IL believed him for a while, and I fear that others have been taken in by him since. And no, I do not mean Firoz Kassam....
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Post by minime on Aug 18, 2016 21:49:33 GMT
To be fair, stuff Oxvox, and I say that with no disrespect meant, but why wouldn't this have been presented to DE himself as soon as possible anyway? It was - a long time ago. Together with the rationale for why purchasing the Kassam Stadium would not be viable. The same views were shown to OxVox (albeit without the detail, which is proprietary to the property consultant, who did the work unpaid and whom OxVox have not asked to meet). Sometimes, people just have to find out for themselves. Often the hard way. I can say for sure that I've certainly made that mistake in my career before. 'surely, if only a reasonable person could...'. It's a gentle, benign form of arrogance that most of us are subject to from time to time; the belief that something blatantly obvious and easy has been overlooked. By Kelvin; by IL; by me.... And the truth is that ever since I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about, I remain desperately keen to be proven wrong. The day that I wake up and OUFC own the Kassam Stadium (assuming some horrendous pact has not had to be struck) I will be so, so, so happy. A tiny bit less happy than if we actually owned a satisfactory stadium, it's true, but pretty damn happy none the less. Sadly, though, nothing I read from any party involved tells me that my prognosis has changed one little bit. When it comes to the question of WHY people would believe differently from the bald truth, there is a Pied Piper in all of this. Sort of the Oxford version of the Duke of York. He can lead gullible men up to the top of the hill.... but has an un-erring knack of leading them down again. IL believed him for a while, and I fear that others have been taken in by him since. And no, I do not mean Firoz Kassam.... I must have missed something over the last five years then, but my question to you is "Who?"
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Post by minime on Aug 18, 2016 22:17:03 GMT
Do we have to have car parking the other side of Grenoble rd? Is that the only way fk gets permission to build on the overflow? If a deal could be worked out with the science park to use their multi stories (I know it hasn't happened so far, like with the train station that wasn't going to happen, things can change. We already have the biggest free football car park in England. If kassam got the development land on the over flow, Oufc then got the stadium off him at a decent price for both parties, and the council get a shared training complex and housing opposite, then surley everyone is a winner. Apart from the land owner at WE. Anything stopping FK developing on the car parks now and not giving a monkey's about OUFC's thoughts and / or predicament in regards to parking?
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Post by myles on Aug 19, 2016 7:42:49 GMT
I must have missed something over the last five years then, but my question to you is "Who?" Think about who has a political interest in developing the land south of Grenoble Road....
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Post by Gary Baldi on Aug 19, 2016 7:48:31 GMT
My guess is someone in the political arena, but it's a shot in the dark so to speak.
As for developing the car parks, the council have supposedly had enough of Kassam and will be making him do the things he has agreed to, so perhaps they won't let him walk over them. Feels like the mouthy kid who is brave until the bell rings and the fight starts.
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Post by londonroader on Aug 19, 2016 8:27:08 GMT
Do we have to have car parking the other side of Grenoble rd? Is that the only way fk gets permission to build on the overflow? If a deal could be worked out with the science park to use their multi stories (I know it hasn't happened so far, like with the train station that wasn't going to happen, things can change. We already have the biggest free football car park in England. If kassam got the development land on the over flow, Oufc then got the stadium off him at a decent price for both parties, and the council get a shared training complex and housing opposite, then surley everyone is a winner. Apart from the land owner at WE. Anything stopping FK developing on the car parks now and not giving a monkey's about OUFC's thoughts and / or predicament in regards to parking? All his on going concerns around the car park that need this facility.
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Post by Colin B on Aug 19, 2016 8:29:30 GMT
Reading this back, I think some of the people commenting here are taking some of those currently involved as idiots. Untrue and disrespectful is how I feel about that.
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Post by charliesghost on Aug 19, 2016 8:29:52 GMT
I must have missed something over the last five years then, but my question to you is "Who?" Think about who has a political interest in developing the land south of Grenoble Road.... And a political interest in keeping the football club inside the City boundaries, whether that be to OUFC's benefit or not. If everyone involved - Kelvin, Ian, Firoz, Darryl, OxVox leadership past and present - were to get together and compile a list of promises made but not delivered by that man, the scales would fall from eyes pdq. But, as I say, everyone seems to need to make their own mistakes. And thus the years go by....
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Post by charliesghost on Aug 19, 2016 8:32:27 GMT
Reading this back, I think some of the people commenting here are taking some of those currently involved as idiots. Untrue and disrespectful is how I feel about that. Whereas those currently involved have always showed a deep level of respect for those previously involved, Colin? Respect tends to need to be a two-way process. It was deeply, deeply strange to release 'research' on Grenoble Road without noting that SODC had just ruled out planning the other side of the road. I respect you as very much not an idiot, and am sure you can see that.
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Post by myles on Aug 19, 2016 9:01:12 GMT
Reading this back, I think some of the people commenting here are taking some of those currently involved as idiots. Untrue and disrespectful is how I feel about that. So, are OxVox going to hold a member's meeting to properly present the findings of the work carried out?
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Post by Colin B on Aug 19, 2016 9:26:15 GMT
Reading this back, I think some of the people commenting here are taking some of those currently involved as idiots. Untrue and disrespectful is how I feel about that. So, are OxVox going to hold a member's meeting to properly present the findings of the work carried out? You mean like the one that was held a couple of weeks ago?
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Post by foley on Aug 19, 2016 9:28:56 GMT
Reading this back, I think some of the people commenting here are taking some of those currently involved as idiots. Untrue and disrespectful is how I feel about that. So, are OxVox going to hold a member's meeting to properly present the findings of the work carried out? To be fair Myles Oxvox DID have a meeting to present the findings. I know that not everybody could attend but guess that would always be the case (some can not get there a long time before a game). I guess that my question to Oxvox would be what happens next?
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Post by myles on Aug 19, 2016 9:35:50 GMT
So, are OxVox going to hold a member's meeting to properly present the findings of the work carried out? You mean like the one that was held a couple of weeks ago? The meeting held mid-week, in peak holiday season and not on a matchday you mean? Where the documentary findings aren't published in advance, restricting the ability of members to ask pertinent questions? For the single most important factor affecting the long term sustainability of the club, are you really happy with that?
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Post by charliesghost on Aug 19, 2016 9:38:24 GMT
Reading this back, I think some of the people commenting here are taking some of those currently involved as idiots. Untrue and disrespectful is how I feel about that. So, are OxVox going to hold a member's meeting to properly present the findings of the work carried out? Myles, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree. As far as I can tell - and I fully accept that I may be missing something - there have been no findings. The situation is as before: 1. Kassam won't sell, except at an exceptional price, which makes no sustainable sense for OUFC 2. One way he might make it work for him is if he can develop the car-parks, in which case there would need to be other car-parks - both for us and for his other business interests 3. Multi-stories do not make financial sense for him 4. SODC has ruled out planning south of Grenoble Road for the forseeable future 5. The City Council promises much, but never delivers anything solid Ergo, OUFC being able to purchase the Kassam Stadium ain't happening anytime soon unless a sugar daddy decides that an extra £8 million here or there makes no difference. There is a sensible conversation to be had which acknowledges these long-established facts, and then tries to decide: a) whether it is sustainable for OUFC to continue as tenants b) if not, then is there another option, or multiple options, that can be examined and knitted together into a broader Oxfordshire framework, given that local plans are out to consultation and still subject to alteration subsequent to that. One such overall framework might include Grenoble Road, but should all eggs be in that basket?
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 10:34:02 GMT
So, are OxVox going to hold a member's meeting to properly present the findings of the work carried out? Myles, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree. As far as I can tell - and I fully accept that I may be missing something - there have been no findings. The situation is as before: 1. Kassam won't sell, except at an exceptional price, which makes no sustainable sense for OUFC 2. One way he might make it work for him is if he can develop the car-parks, in which case there would need to be other car-parks - both for us and for his other business interests 3. Multi-stories do not make financial sense for him 4. SODC has ruled out planning south of Grenoble Road for the forseeable future 5. The City Council promises much, but never delivers anything solid Ergo, OUFC being able to purchase the Kassam Stadium ain't happening anytime soon unless a sugar daddy decides that an extra £8 million here or there makes no difference. There is a sensible conversation to be had which acknowledges these long-established facts, and then tries to decide: a) whether it is sustainable for OUFC to continue as tenants b) if not, then is there another option, or multiple options, that can be examined and knitted together into a broader Oxfordshire framework, given that local plans are out to consultation and still subject to alteration subsequent to that. One such overall framework might include Grenoble Road, but should all eggs be in that basket? 1. Kassam won't sell, except at an exceptional price, which makes no sustainable sense for OUFC - Says Who??? Has ANYONE asked him outright? 2. One way he might make it work for him is if he can develop the car-parks, in which case there would need to be other car-parks - both for us and for his other business interests - He can do that anyway. As I have said prior, he does not need (legally or morally) to care or think about OUFC 4. SODC has ruled out planning south of Grenoble Road for the forseeable future - Correct. Never going to happen. Need to forget that idea full stop. 5. The City Council promises much, but never delivers anything solid - Of course. They are council. Full of shite. Surprised? There is a sensible conversation to be had which acknowledges these long-established facts, and then tries to decide: a) whether it is sustainable for OUFC to continue as tenants b) if not, then is there another option, or multiple options, that can be examined and knitted together into a broader Oxfordshire framework, given that local plans are out to consultation and still subject to alteration subsequent to that. One such overall framework might include Grenoble Road, but should all eggs be in that basket? - This conversation should have been held years ago. Why only now???
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Post by manorlounger on Aug 19, 2016 10:51:54 GMT
I'm confused. Water Eaton is good or bad? Buying the stadium is good or bad? Car parks, yes or no?
Charlie, you seem to have all the answers, yes? or no, you have as much as anyone else? And DE, he knows, doesn't he? He owns OUFC, yes? So he should know, shouldn't he? And all the information on here is fact, yes? or no, it's all conjecture based on something, or not.
It's all very confusing.
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 11:14:38 GMT
I'm confused. Water Eaton is good or bad? Buying the stadium is good or bad? Car parks, yes or no? Charlie, you seem to have all the answers, yes? or no, you have as much as anyone else? And DE, he knows, doesn't he? He owns OUFC, yes? So he should know, shouldn't he? And all the information on here is fact, yes? or no, it's all conjecture based on something, or not. It's all very confusing. From what I know (which isn't a lot!)... Water Eaton is good or bad? - Good Location - Would be good in long run (once built etc) - Cost a shite load of cash (possibly more than the value of the Kassam Stadium which no one can afford) - No one has asked the landowner if he is willing to sell - No one has approached either council in regards to planning. Buying the stadium is good or bad - Good as you already have a purpose built stadium - Would only own the structure itself, MAYBE not the land that it sits on - OUFC would still not own the car parks etc meaning Kassam could do what the hell he wants with them - No provision for development over the road or around the stadium itself - No one willing to stump up the cash, or attempt to raise the cash to purchase said breeze block!
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Post by Mark Sennett on Aug 19, 2016 11:58:45 GMT
I'm confused. Water Eaton is good or bad? Buying the stadium is good or bad? Car parks, yes or no? Charlie, you seem to have all the answers, yes? or no, you have as much as anyone else? And DE, he knows, doesn't he? He owns OUFC, yes? So he should know, shouldn't he? And all the information on here is fact, yes? or no, it's all conjecture based on something, or not. It's all very confusing. From what I know (which isn't a lot!)... Water Eaton is good or bad? - Good Location - Would be good in long run (once built etc) - Cost a shite load of cash (possibly more than the value of the Kassam Stadium which no one can afford) - No one has asked the landowner if he is willing to sell - No one has approached either council in regards to planning. Buying the stadium is good or bad - Good as you already have a purpose built stadium - Would only own the structure itself, MAYBE not the land that it sits on - OUFC would still not own the car parks etc meaning Kassam could do what the hell he wants with them - No provision for development over the road or around the stadium itself - No one willing to stump up the cash, or attempt to raise the cash to purchase said breeze block! Not true on some points in regards to water eaton. We have spoken to the land agents of the landowners at water eaton and had an indication on price. It would likely all in cost less than buying and developing the Kassam and the outlay would be less due to available grants and sponsorship we'd already been discussing with relevant parties at WE. As for the Kassam there's also a hefty reparations bill that will need to be addressed ASAP. The problem with going to war with Kassam is he has all the cards. He was and is very interested in water eaton and partnering with OUFC in general. But if you are going to go to war with him you need a strategy a target and leverage. At present we have none and yet we still hope to get cooperation on things like a temporary stand. Bottom line is we need the stadium situation resolved as the owner can't be expected to keep digging deep. I applaud that OxVox are exploring all avenues on the stadium but as Charlie has pointed out the SODC recent announcements and antagonising the current stadium owner does not do anything to convince me that the future lies at the current site
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 12:31:26 GMT
From what I know (which isn't a lot!)... Water Eaton is good or bad? - Good Location - Would be good in long run (once built etc) - Cost a shite load of cash (possibly more than the value of the Kassam Stadium which no one can afford) - No one has asked the landowner if he is willing to sell - No one has approached either council in regards to planning. Buying the stadium is good or bad - Good as you already have a purpose built stadium - Would only own the structure itself, MAYBE not the land that it sits on - OUFC would still not own the car parks etc meaning Kassam could do what the hell he wants with them - No provision for development over the road or around the stadium itself - No one willing to stump up the cash, or attempt to raise the cash to purchase said breeze block! Not true on some points in regards to water eaton. We have spoken to the land agents of the landowners at water eaton and had an indication on price. It would likely all in cost less than buying and developing the Kassam and the outlay would be less due to available grants and sponsorship we'd already been discussing with relevant parties at WE. As for the Kassam there's also a hefty reparations bill that will need to be addressed ASAP. The problem with going to war with Kassam is he has all the cards. He was and is very interested in water eaton and partnering with OUFC in general. But if you are going to go to war with him you need a strategy a target and leverage. At present we have none and yet we still hope to get cooperation on things like a temporary stand. Bottom line is we need the stadium situation resolved as the owner can't be expected to keep digging deep. I applaud that OxVox are exploring all avenues on the stadium but as Charlie has pointed out the SODC recent announcements and antagonising the current stadium owner does not do anything to convince me that the future lies at the current site Thanks Mark, so on this.... "Not true on some points in regards to water eaton. We have spoken to the land agents of the landowners at water eaton and had an indication on price. It would likely all in cost less than buying and developing the Kassam and the outlay would be less due to available grants and sponsorship we'd already been discussing with relevant parties at WE. " What is the stumbling block? Cash?, Planning approval?
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Post by charliesghost on Aug 19, 2016 13:36:13 GMT
Not true on some points in regards to water eaton. We have spoken to the land agents of the landowners at water eaton and had an indication on price. It would likely all in cost less than buying and developing the Kassam and the outlay would be less due to available grants and sponsorship we'd already been discussing with relevant parties at WE. As for the Kassam there's also a hefty reparations bill that will need to be addressed ASAP. The problem with going to war with Kassam is he has all the cards. He was and is very interested in water eaton and partnering with OUFC in general. But if you are going to go to war with him you need a strategy a target and leverage. At present we have none and yet we still hope to get cooperation on things like a temporary stand. Bottom line is we need the stadium situation resolved as the owner can't be expected to keep digging deep. I applaud that OxVox are exploring all avenues on the stadium but as Charlie has pointed out the SODC recent announcements and antagonising the current stadium owner does not do anything to convince me that the future lies at the current site Thanks Mark, so on this.... "Not true on some points in regards to water eaton. We have spoken to the land agents of the landowners at water eaton and had an indication on price. It would likely all in cost less than buying and developing the Kassam and the outlay would be less due to available grants and sponsorship we'd already been discussing with relevant parties at WE. " What is the stumbling block? Cash?, Planning approval? Planning approval, of course. It has not been specifically rejected, as south of Grenoble Road has, but nor has it been applied for. Both our independent property expert and the leader of Oxfordshire County Council thought it had a good chance if linked with a massive housing development at Grenoble Road, that would answer Oxford's planning needs, and thus release pressure on the district councils to accept quota transfers. They both had informal conversations with councillors. And yes, of course we spoke with the landowners' representatives in some depth.
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 15:22:08 GMT
Thanks Mark, so on this.... "Not true on some points in regards to water eaton. We have spoken to the land agents of the landowners at water eaton and had an indication on price. It would likely all in cost less than buying and developing the Kassam and the outlay would be less due to available grants and sponsorship we'd already been discussing with relevant parties at WE. " What is the stumbling block? Cash?, Planning approval? Planning approval, of course. It has not been specifically rejected, as south of Grenoble Road has, but nor has it been applied for. Both our independent property expert and the leader of Oxfordshire County Council thought it had a good chance if linked with a massive housing development at Grenoble Road, that would answer Oxford's planning needs, and thus release pressure on the district councils to accept quota transfers. They both had informal conversations with councillors. And yes, of course we spoke with the landowners' representatives in some depth. So if that's the case then Charlie, why has this "project" not gone full steam ahead from OUFC's perspective? I think there is more to it than just "planning approval, of course"
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 19, 2016 15:28:47 GMT
Because the person funding it doesn't see it the same way maybe? Not forgetting the kassam doesn't need planning approval it's already there. Easy to spend other's money. But considering Charlie was advising il on the issue, then il was appointed the director responsible for looking at it, and supposedly steward Donald offered up to £7m to help buy it, suggests it probably isn't just as straight forward as planning permission. Why didn't il apply then ?
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Post by charliesghost on Aug 19, 2016 16:13:04 GMT
Planning approval, of course. It has not been specifically rejected, as south of Grenoble Road has, but nor has it been applied for. Both our independent property expert and the leader of Oxfordshire County Council thought it had a good chance if linked with a massive housing development at Grenoble Road, that would answer Oxford's planning needs, and thus release pressure on the district councils to accept quota transfers. They both had informal conversations with councillors. And yes, of course we spoke with the landowners' representatives in some depth. So if that's the case then Charlie, why has this "project" not gone full steam ahead from OUFC's perspective? I think there is more to it than just "planning approval, of course" Not for me to say. Partially because I do not know. After selling the club, IL largely (and understandably) lost interest, so I wouldn't waste too much time wondering about that. I'm afraid that I suspect that the answer is that 'buying the Kassam Stadium' looks the easy option - to everyone - when they start the process. But once you've really looked into it properly you realise that it is both the most expensive or the most complex option, or maybe both. It's only at that point that one starts to look elsewhere.
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 19, 2016 16:15:08 GMT
Why did il not push forward with WE before he decided to sell though? Or continue your work on it once he was appoint director responsible for looking into it
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Post by charliesghost on Aug 19, 2016 16:31:16 GMT
So if that's the case then Charlie, why has this "project" not gone full steam ahead from OUFC's perspective? I think there is more to it than just "planning approval, of course" Not for me to say. Partially because I do not know. After selling the club, IL largely (and understandably) lost interest, so I wouldn't waste too much time wondering about that. I'm afraid that I suspect that the answer is that 'buying the Kassam Stadium' looks the easy option - to everyone - when they start the process. But once you've really looked into it properly you realise that it is both the most expensive or the most complex option, or maybe both. It's only at that point that one starts to look elsewhere. Sorry - just realised that that is unnecessarily cryptic. Like most OUFC fans I always imagined that FK's asking price for the stadium of 13 million was over-the-top. We then had it independently valued - and the result came back at 14 million!! Add in dilapidation and the cost of a fourth stand and the overall price for an ageing 16000 capacity stadium was going to be 20 million, with no grants, material stadium sponsorship or stand naming rights. So hellishly expensive. And far, far more expensive than a modern wrap-around 18000 capacity with potential for 25,000 elsewhere. The only way to mitigate the price was to get OCC to allow Firoz to build on the car-parks, at the price of selling us the stadium cheaper. But that then required new car-parks elsewhere very nearby and SODC knocked that down. Hence the search elsewhere.... of course, I fully accept that everything might have changed hugely since then. But I'm not seeing any great changes in what I see here from OxVox. Just the dead hand of the Grand Old Duke of York. Again. But the club itself may be having really fruitful discussions which make everything come together at last. I'm not privy to any of that, so can only relate what happened 3 years ago and my estimation of what has changed since, which seems to be 'not much' except for a hardening of attitudes all round.
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 16:34:36 GMT
Why did il not push forward with WE before he decided to sell though? Or continue your work on it once he was appoint director responsible for looking into it Because he had no interest from the outset. He came in on Merry's appeal and then his mate shat on him. IL had no interest in OUFC at all. Certainly none near the end which is why he sold up and got out. So, again, the question has to be, knowing that IL didn't do the job he was required and publically announced that he would do by DE, what has or is DE doing about it?
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 19, 2016 16:35:46 GMT
Maybe u should email DE and ask him rather than keep asking the same question to people who can't answer it for you
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 16:39:56 GMT
Maybe u should email DE and ask him rather than keep asking the same question to people who can't answer it for you DE'S ignorant - FACT! To be fair, I am asking the people on here who have been very close to it all and who seem to have more idea than pretty much most on here. Now Charlie has said he aint got a clue. I'll leave him alone, but the question wasn't just to him personally and to be fair, these questions SHOULD have been asked by Oxvox long ago!
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Post by minime on Aug 19, 2016 16:41:04 GMT
Tell you what, how about I raise the £20m, buy the Kassam myself, kick out OUFC - BYE! - and let Swindon Town reserves play there?!
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Post by oufcyellows on Aug 19, 2016 16:42:07 GMT
They probably have, but your asking a question that only one person can answer. Same as if you want to know what I'm doing about spending my money buying the ground, Charlie probably won't know the answer.
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