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Post by ZeroTheHero on May 6, 2014 11:10:57 GMT
.. for the benefit of Prem clubs and England.
The proposal apparently is to create another league in between L2 and the Conference for Prem and Championship teams to play their second teams. This is an attempt to get young English players up to scratch.
What a poorly thought out idea. In almost every way.
1. You couldn't force the clubs to play English players - that's against the law. So they would just play who they wanted anyway.
2. Would you allow promotion and/or relegation from this league? If so, what's to stop the Man City/Man U/Liverpool/Arsenal second team climbing the leagues and becoming a Championship club? If not, how the hell does a Conference club ever get into the league? What happens to clubs relegated from L2?
3. What about clubs like Dagenham, who may rely on West Ham fans who don't travel for a section of their home support? For that matter what about many lower league teams who live within spitting distance of a Prem/Championship club who will presumably be playing matches at home (first team or feeder club) every single week?
4. Money. At the moment there is some (but not very much) trickle down of TV money down the leagues. Will that be further diluted?
I'm sure there are other drawbacks, and I am finding it hard to think of a poorer idea. Is it just me - or can anyone see benefits from this apart from for the Prem/Champ teams? I don't even think it will make much/any different to England.
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Post by aaronoxf on May 6, 2014 11:13:05 GMT
Think its a good idea.spain have done it for years
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Post by SteMerritt on May 6, 2014 11:19:54 GMT
...for Prem and Championship teams to play their second teams. This is an attempt to get young English players up to scratch. If only there were some sort of system where teams down the pyramid could 'borrow' a young player for a few months, or even for a whole season. This would mean that the young players get to play in a tough league with a lot of seasoned-professionals, which would be ideal to see if they are up to it or not.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on May 6, 2014 11:35:07 GMT
Think its a good idea.spain have done it for years Care to tell why you think it's a good idea? Specifically in respect of every team outside the top two divisions? Genuinely interested!
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Post by mooro on May 6, 2014 12:03:02 GMT
...for Prem and Championship teams to play their second teams. This is an attempt to get young English players up to scratch. If only there were some sort of system where teams down the pyramid could 'borrow' a young player for a few months, or even for a whole season. This would mean that the young players get to play in a tough league with a lot of seasoned-professionals, which would be ideal to see if they are up to it or not. Yeah, there was a chap at Fulham last season who wasn't quite good enough for the first team but could really have used a season playing at a lower level to bring out some of his talent and boost his confidence - can't think what his name was though......Ryan something?
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Post by palmersgreenyellow on May 6, 2014 12:03:12 GMT
I can't think of a worse idea.
When I heard this on 5Live this morning my blood was boiling within seconds.
It makes about as much sense as holding a music festival in an old peoples' home.
Why not simply go the whole hog and get rid, completely, of all teams from the Championship, L1, L2 and all below. We could then just have 12 teams in the Prem, 16 in the Championship aka 'Prem2' with their remaining B (and why not C) teams fighting it out in Prem3 and Prem4. Utterly disgusting, short sighted, self-serving and beneficial for those powerful clubs who continue to skim the cream, getting bigger and bigger.
FFS!!!!!!!!
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Post by Gary Baldi on May 6, 2014 12:13:56 GMT
When the FA talk about grass roots football and be all patronising about how important it is...
It doesn't address the fundamental issues of why English players don't play enough. Will they improve playing in a B league? Will they heck. Don't they have a development league now?
It acquiesces to the top clubs and the trawler net approach to academies where anything with talent is hoovered up. Wouldn't it be better to subsidise lower league clubs to play good young English players than let them rot in Academies because another cheap foreign player has come in? The TV money is so disproportionately huge that the overall cost to the elite is small, but for the rest of the game it could be huge. Plus it may even get bums on seat.
Terrible, terrible idea.
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Post by sihath on May 6, 2014 12:30:08 GMT
Agree with the sentiments above (except you Aaron ) The PL, and to a lesser extent the Championship, have been trawling round gather more and more young players in the hope that one will turn out to be good enough to play for the first team, the rest they discard. The removal of the rules regarding the distance a youngster could travel to train with a club was a big mistake IMHO. The PL effectively forced lower league clubs to accept the EEE proposals. Who benefits most? The "big" clubs of course. Greed. They're not interested in what's "good for the game". They just want what's best for them. They're businesses so that's )kind of) understandable. Just don't expect them to do what's best for the rest of us. They won't.
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Post by harryhalitosis on May 6, 2014 12:43:05 GMT
I know this proposal is only at the 'idea stage' but on the face of it I think it's a good idea to develop the national game. I think most people agree that the Premier League and British league structure is the best in the world (every now & then the Spanish, Italian or German leagues get praised but over a 50 year period the English system has clearly been the best). Conversely, over the same 50 yr period, the English national team have struggled, largely because we don't have a system or group of English players that can successfully compete againstother European or world sides. The way I see this proposal working is this - the Premier league will be full of top teams fielding the cream of young English players with a lot of top foreign players mixed in.....much like it is now. Each league side is allowed to register a second 'B' team, this team is put somewhere down the pyramid ie the Conf - they have to name their squad for this B team at the start of the season much like all clubs do, so this will inevitably lead to them naming their academy and fringe players in this team. B teams have to comply with the transfer window and loan system like all other sides, meaning players transferring from B team to A team (if they do well enough) will come under league scrutiny as happened when Watford signed a host of players from the Italian side owned by the same chairman. Crowds at Conf games increase because fans want to see the next Man Utd 16yr old starlets rather than watching some 'has been' released by OUFC etc. These B teams get to play in a better structured league to the reserve/combination systems that most teams pulled out of because they weren't financially viable, except now they are because B teams will get a cut of Sky & TV deal money in the same way as other league & conf teams do. The B team players get to play meaningful games in a fairly settled squad, unlike them getting put on the subs bench of occasional Carling Cup games and then sent back to their academy sides. The young talent gets better which can only be good for the national game.
The only way I can see this proposal backfiring is if teams like Chelski pack it full of 16-18yr olds that they've signed from European teams, instead of including a minimum number of young English players which, as we know, is something that can't be enforced because of labour & human rights rules. But the league could (I guess) decide to divide up the TV deal money based on how many English players a club registers (thus encouraging the top teams to field mainly UK based players in their B teams) - I don't think any law exists stopping the FA from choosing to divide up 'their' TV money however they choose. Overall, I think it's a good idea. HH
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Post by unification on May 6, 2014 12:45:12 GMT
Blame the ‘breakaway’ Premier League (or Premiership as it was then) for all of this. The FA have been pandering to them ever since, so it doesn’t surprise me at all that this idea is being mooted. Anything to keep the big clubs happy whilst championing a false position of ‘improving’ the national team and the FA will do it. Having three administrators over the game in this country – the PL, the FL and the FA – just makes everything such a bureaucratic nightmare and I can only see the ideas being floated as adding more to it.
People point to Spain and Germany as examples where having ‘B’ teams can work, but do they really have the rich history of lower league football that we have? Attendances at tiers 3 and 4 matches some of those seen in the top flights of those countries and to throw all of that away in favour of seeing Chelsea ‘B’ play Leyton Orient is a really sad one.
For me, if they want to improve the national game, enforce quotas on foreign players like county cricket does and get rid of the PL and have Divisions 1 to 4 again with a more even money split. Whilst I’m putting the football world to rights, I’d also like to see the Champions League go to straight knock-out again like a big European FA Cup (with two legs, of course). The group stages are so boring that I think most casual fans sit waiting for the draw for the knock outs to be made. Just think – Real Madrid vs Barcelona could be a first round match. Far more interesting than watching either hammer Olympiakos or Apoel Nicosia in the group stages.
I’m not part of the ‘Against Modern Football’ campaign (whatever that means), but do think that some of the classic ideas of the past could be resurrected if money wasn’t the be all and end all of the game.
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Post by doobs on May 6, 2014 12:57:32 GMT
Michael Owen's blog from October last year comes up with an interesting alternative idea - I don't think he was on the FA 'commission', but I wonder if his opinion was canvassed ....
Michael's Blog: 29th October 2013
England - Youth system is the key to success
Despite the outcome of England's two pivotal clashes at Wembley over the past fortnight, the issue of how best to develop the next generation of English players will not go away. There is a common consensus for the need to change and it's heartening to see The FA taking steps to address the slide. In my previous Blog, I tried to highlight the difficulty faced by young players of today in breaking into their club's respective first teams at the highest level of our game. This article aims to provide some possible solutions that will not only help our national team for years to come, but also every club in each tier of our game.
I am convinced more than ever that the structure at our academies is failing our youngsters at the final hurdle. Forget finances, facilities, standards of coaching and the attitude of players. In my opinion, despite these factors all being important, none of them are the major reason for our lack of talented players breaking through into our domestic club first teams, not to mention the alarming set of recent results in our National youth football.
I listen to and read so many reasons as to why England are failing to produce top performers on the International stage. Everyone has an opinion but if I'm honest, very few of them convince me.
We have the wealthiest league in the world of football and a great deal of money is invested into our academies and youth football resulting in the facilities that our kids train at being outstanding. Their diet is monitored, their strength and conditioning is taken care of, they are coached by professional people brought in from all over the world and the medical expertise is second to none. Our academies want for nothing.
You would do well to pick many holes in our academies but, in my opinion, there is a glaring one that occurs right at the end of the academy process. As pointed out in my previous Blog, at the top level, the leap from youth team to first team nowadays is huge - and it's growing year on year. Not only is it a bigger leap than ever before but the stepping stone that used to be there for the promising few has now been eroded. The end result is that unless you are a freak of nature, you come to a grinding halt in the development process which results in a wastage of hundreds of promising teenagers who go stale in the no mans land between youth team and first team.
Long gone is the structure of reserve team football that enabled the best youngsters to mix it with a group of first team players, where priceless experience was gained before making that final step up to the first team. Judging by the way football is going, the tried and trusted path once took by myself, Fowler, McManaman, Gerrard, Carragher not to mention the 'Class of 96' at Old Trafford is becoming a thing of the past. As hard as it is sometimes to accept change, that is what's happening in the world of football and unless we take measures to accommodate these changes, we will continue to see the potential of our next generation of talent being compromised, just when the opportunity to fulfill their potential is within touching distance.
Let me explain precisely where I believe our system is falling short:
It would be foolish of me to say that everything is perfect in our academies. Yes, coaching can always improve, players attitudes can improve but by and large, we have a great structure in this country, many top coaches and amazing facilities, all of which create a fantastic environment for our youngsters to thrive. I watch many academy games. It's fair to say that most of our talent nowadays gravitates to either the big Premier League clubs or clubs that have a big catchment area. Unfortunately these days, very few promising kids are unearthed from the smaller clubs as once was the case.
So how do we go about converting potential into an end product for the benefit of the player himself, the clubs and in some cases, the National Team? I have two solutions, one more preferable than the other:
The first option is to create 'B' teams of clubs like they do in Spain. For example, Real Madrid 'B' compete in La Liga 3 which is the equivalent of our League 1. Their team simply consists of a variety of players from their youth set up and acts as a final stepping stone to their first team. Current Real Madrid first team players Diego Lopez and Alvero Arbeloa were in the 'B Team' while I was at the club along with Tottenham's recent £30m signing Roberto Soldado. Critically, this structure provides these players with the perfect environment with which to learn their trade, pitting their wits against hardened lower league professional players and thereby learning ten times what they would learn in a youth game. As you can imagine, these games draw sizeable crowds with people eager to get a glimpse of the next generation of potential Galacticos. This dynamic also provides the club with great comfort knowing that they still have control of how much each player plays, access to the clubs medical facilities and a general continuity that filters through the club. Being a traditionalist, I don't like the thought of these teams 'just arriving' in a particular division, inevitably at the expense of another team. I'm also unsure as to how many Premier League clubs would be permitted to have a 'B Team'.
The second option, and an option that I feel would be hugely beneficial to the state of our National game would be to create a loan system whereby every team in the Premier League provides a set number of English players to be distributed fairly among The Championship, League 1 and League 2 clubs. Almost like the draft system they use in American Football. Each league club would receive 2 or 3 players per season in two waves (start of the season until Christmas and Christmas until the end of the season) from random Premier League clubs which would not only help our lower league teams but more importantly help the development of our future talent. I talk about fairly distributing these young English players across all teams in every league as this would be much fairer than the current system. At the moment, depending on which Premier League boss the lower league manager knows, a team can have a huge and unfair advantage over their league rivals in regard to the number and quality of loan signings that they can make.
Imagine 150 or so young English players learning their trade in the lower leagues. It would do absolute wonders for their development. The experience gained and the ability to perform under pressure would be priceless. These are the challenges our youngsters need to be exposed to early on if we are to expect them to rise to the challenge later on in their careers. You can be sure that at some point a few of them will have to step up and take a spot kick in a World Cup Penalty Shoot Out. Is it just a coincidence that we lose most of these? - I think not. People are not born to handle huge pressure, they learn to deal with it through experience. Suddenly presenting someone with a highly pressured situation when they haven't regularly experienced it normally results in one outcome - them freezing on the big occasion. We've seen it too many times unfortunately.
Going out on loan would teach our stars of the future very little in terms of how the game should be played. That part should have been drilled into them since their arrival into the academy system. What it will do and what is sometimes overlooked is that this experience will give them a real insight into the realities of the game. The mental and physical toughness required to play against men, the pressure to win so that the man sat next to you in the changing room gets his £100 bonus to pay his mortgage, the expectation of the manager who needs to win to keep his job and the feeling you get from playing in front of a few thousand passionate fans in a game that actually means something.
As many people reading this article will know, there is a big difference between learning something in the comfort of a classroom to the practicality of dealing with a situation in the real world. Just ask a Doctor, a Singer, a Policeman, a Fire Fighter, a Surgeon etc, it's plying you're trade under pressure that separates the men from the boys.
Another benefit of this system is that it would show the young academy player what life is like outside of the Premier League, both on and off the pitch. As great as the facilities and financial rewards are in the Premier League and their academies, it can have the effect on young players of making them think that it's the norm and will always be that way for them.
The current alternative to the above is for the young player to play in another Academy Youth game, the same type of game he has played in for the last 3 years. Without any progression and no possible chance of making the leap from Youth Team to First Team is it any wonder our youngsters go stale and start dropping out of the game? This fate is the reality for dozens of players every year. A complete waste.
Many people are quick to point the finger at the influx of foreign players clogging up the system for our youngsters. It's a straight choice between having a successful Premier League or a successful National Team I hear them cry. I really believe we can have both. Look at Spain and Germany as shining examples. Let's continue to attract the world's best players to these shores. Our youngsters improve for playing alongside them. At the same time, let's hope that the powers that be realise that the current system isn't working, that football has changed and that our youth structure has to move with the times. Only then can we dream of producing England teams that are fighting for major honours in the years to come.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on May 6, 2014 13:10:53 GMT
I know this proposal is only at the 'idea stage' but on the face of it I think it's a good idea to develop the national game. I think most people agree that the Premier League and British league structure is the best in the world (every now & then the Spanish, Italian or German leagues get praised but over a 50 year period the English system has clearly been the best). Conversely, over the same 50 yr period, the English national team have struggled, largely because we don't have a system or group of English players that can successfully compete againstother European or world sides. The way I see this proposal working is this - the Premier league will be full of top teams fielding the cream of young English players with a lot of top foreign players mixed in.....much like it is now. Each league side is allowed to register a second 'B' team, this team is put somewhere down the pyramid ie the Conf - they have to name their squad for this B team at the start of the season much like all clubs do, so this will inevitably lead to them naming their academy and fringe players in this team. B teams have to comply with the transfer window and loan system like all other sides, meaning players transferring from B team to A team (if they do well enough) will come under league scrutiny as happened when Watford signed a host of players from the Italian side owned by the same chairman. Crowds at Conf games increase because fans want to see the next Man Utd 16yr old starlets rather than watching some 'has been' released by OUFC etc. These B teams get to play in a better structured league to the reserve/combination systems that most teams pulled out of because they weren't financially viable, except now they are because B teams will get a cut of Sky & TV deal money in the same way as other league & conf teams do. The B team players get to play meaningful games in a fairly settled squad, unlike them getting put on the subs bench of occasional Carling Cup games and then sent back to their academy sides. The young talent gets better which can only be good for the national game. The only way I can see this proposal backfiring is if teams like Chelski pack it full of 16-18yr olds that they've signed from European teams, instead of including a minimum number of young English players which, as we know, is something that can't be enforced because of labour & human rights rules. But the league could (I guess) decide to divide up the TV deal money based on how many English players a club registers (thus encouraging the top teams to field mainly UK based players in their B teams) - I don't think any law exists stopping the FA from choosing to divide up 'their' TV money however they choose. Overall, I think it's a good idea. HH And looking at it from that perspective (Prem/Champ/England sides and their young players) it might be. So let's say that - for argument- 23 teams from the Prem and Champ decide it's a good idea and it goes ahead. They fill a league that sits between L2 and the Conference (which is what's being proposed as I understand it). My original questions still stand. How does a Conference team get into the league? Presumably they have to go though this new league? Which means teams have to be promoted and relegated from this league. So then L2 starts to get populated by these B teams? And the Conference? Do you realistically think that a 'normal' L2 club could compete (moneywise, player selection and club resources) with a B team from Man City? How on earth would a Conference club that got promoted to this league be supposed to have a decent chance of going up through it to the league proper? How would a small club coming into the Conference fare when the B teams relegated from the new league appear there? Is that a level playing field? The whole thing massively skews the pyramid structure, adding a league which means much less to some clubs (in financial, stability and progression terms) than it does to others around them.
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Post by sihath on May 6, 2014 13:35:43 GMT
Can Dyke be charged with bringing the game into disrepute?
disrepute ˌdɪsrɪˈpjuːt/ noun noun: disrepute
the state of being held in low esteem by the public.
Charge him now!
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Post by Boogaloo on May 6, 2014 13:37:37 GMT
Here's the other thing I don't like - why should they automatically be inserted into some league between League 2 and the Conference? When teams like Halifax, Aldershot etc folded then reformed as a new club, they had to start right at the very bottom of the tree. The EPL reserve teams should be no different - why should they be fast-tracked to the 5th tier of the football pyramid?
And for what it's worth, I can't see this having any impact on the national side - it will just make the richer clubs richer. A poor idea.
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Post by sihath on May 6, 2014 13:42:58 GMT
It's bad enough with the likes of Boogaloo and Baldy singing the praises of Man Utd/Arsenal, but imagine the hyperbole about the latest wonderkid playing in this new league.
The future of English football, The new Messi/Ronaldo/Henry/Rooney etc
They'll be insufferable...
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Post by harryhalitosis on May 6, 2014 13:52:26 GMT
I know this proposal is only at the 'idea stage' but on the face of it I think it's a good idea to develop the national game. I think most people agree that the Premier League and British league structure is the best in the world (every now & then the Spanish, Italian or German leagues get praised but over a 50 year period the English system has clearly been the best). Conversely, over the same 50 yr period, the English national team have struggled, largely because we don't have a system or group of English players that can successfully compete againstother European or world sides. The way I see this proposal working is this - the Premier league will be full of top teams fielding the cream of young English players with a lot of top foreign players mixed in.....much like it is now. Each league side is allowed to register a second 'B' team, this team is put somewhere down the pyramid ie the Conf - they have to name their squad for this B team at the start of the season much like all clubs do, so this will inevitably lead to them naming their academy and fringe players in this team. B teams have to comply with the transfer window and loan system like all other sides, meaning players transferring from B team to A team (if they do well enough) will come under league scrutiny as happened when Watford signed a host of players from the Italian side owned by the same chairman. Crowds at Conf games increase because fans want to see the next Man Utd 16yr old starlets rather than watching some 'has been' released by OUFC etc. These B teams get to play in a better structured league to the reserve/combination systems that most teams pulled out of because they weren't financially viable, except now they are because B teams will get a cut of Sky & TV deal money in the same way as other league & conf teams do. The B team players get to play meaningful games in a fairly settled squad, unlike them getting put on the subs bench of occasional Carling Cup games and then sent back to their academy sides. The young talent gets better which can only be good for the national game. The only way I can see this proposal backfiring is if teams like Chelski pack it full of 16-18yr olds that they've signed from European teams, instead of including a minimum number of young English players which, as we know, is something that can't be enforced because of labour & human rights rules. But the league could (I guess) decide to divide up the TV deal money based on how many English players a club registers (thus encouraging the top teams to field mainly UK based players in their B teams) - I don't think any law exists stopping the FA from choosing to divide up 'their' TV money however they choose. Overall, I think it's a good idea. HH And looking at it from that perspective (Prem/Champ/England sides and their young players) it might be. So let's say that - for argument- 23 teams from the Prem and Champ decide it's a good idea and it goes ahead. They fill a league that sits between L2 and the Conference (which is what's being proposed as I understand it). My original questions still stand. How does a Conference team get into the league? Presumably they have to go though this new league? Which means teams have to be promoted and relegated from this league. So then L2 starts to get populated by these B teams? And the Conference? Do you realistically think that a 'normal' L2 club could compete (moneywise, player selection and club resources) with a B team from Man City? How on earth would a Conference club that got promoted to this league be supposed to have a decent chance of going up through it to the league proper? How would a small club coming into the Conference fare when the B teams relegated from the new league appear there? Is that a level playing field? The whole thing massively skews the pyramid structure, adding a league which means much less to some clubs (in financial, stability and progression terms) than it does to others around them. I agree with Boogaloo about these B teams having to start lower down the pyramid. But, to answer your question about how conference teams get into the league.....in exactly the same way they do now.....through hard work and good results. You may be right that a few (but probably not many) of these B teams will start to get promoted into Lge 2 and higher, but this will only happen if there is stability within that team mixed with a constant influx of new, English talent. I don't think this is guaranteed - take Chelsea for example: they field a Bt team and they play in the Conference and do well (not a certainty as young talent won't always do well in the lower leagues where the style of football played at academies isn't always seen in the Conf). One of these players scores 30 goals in his first season, what would Chelse then do. Probably loan him to someone like Brum or Wolves in a higher division for a year before giving him a go in their premiership A team. Isn't that how they blood their young players now, except many of them go abroad on loan? Chelsea B team would then have exactly the same problems as teams like Oxford - players only spending one season with them before they go off to another club. You also ask how a 'normal' Lge 2 (say Oxford) would compete against Man City B team, moneywise, player selection and club resources wise - moneywise is equally simple - FFP rules mean they can only pay wages commensurate with income, facilities will obviously mean that games will be played at places like Rochdale or whereever their reserves currently play. They're hardly going to use the Etihad or even their academy ground for games against us are they? Increased revenue for other lower league teams and knock-on effects for the local economy. Player selection is also obvious - they have to name their squad at the start of the season like every other club, and compete in the same transfer windows etc as other clubs. Oxford learn to live with Man City B team by competing properly against them and adapting the style of play, presumably using our own English players so everyone's a winner, particularly the English game. HH
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Post by ZeroTheHero on May 6, 2014 14:07:41 GMT
Hmm, I think that's optimistic. The rule that a single person could not own two clubs seems like a sensible one - and this drives a coach and horses through it. Whichever ground a B team plays on, they still have an advantage. The backup facilities, medical staff, training grounds they have will put them at an immediate advantage over other Conference teams. Add in the fact that they have no real pressure to succeed, can bring in new, highly rated youngsters at will twice a season (at effectively no cost), no financial pressures (Chelsea 'B' aren't going to fold for the sake of a few thousand or even a few million quid!). I still maintain it isn't a level playing ground. Add in the fact that they are being parachuted into a new division created for them half way up the pyramid and it all stinks. FFP rules will be got around with sponsorships etc, the players will not be all English - and as for benefits to other clubs, what do to think the travelling support of Hull 'B' will be? Will this be a reason for larger clubs to hoover up yet more youngsters to see if they make the grade?
The loan system works OK - and could be expanded if the Prem teams had the will to do so. This will kill it pretty dead, at least for clubs at our level. Robbie Hall and Ryan Williams (for example) would have been playing for their club's B teams. Not us.
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Post by SteMerritt on May 6, 2014 14:18:27 GMT
...and then there is the question of the FA Cup. Are these teams excluded? If not, what happens if Southampton play Southampton 'B'?
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Post by Eaststandboy on May 6, 2014 14:22:48 GMT
This would make the league harder to win and would add another 10 years to our 5 year plan. There B teams would probably be as good as L1 teams!
Sandwiching it between L2 and Conference would see Conference clubs win promotion then probably be relegated the following year. Would that then be L3?
Either way you will see B teams mainly in L1 and L2. Making L3 the L2 of now. And harder to progress.
Leave it as it is!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 14:32:37 GMT
As an academic exercise this is a difficult one.
Clearly it will make life trickier for lower league teams, but if the overall aim is to give young English players more game time, rather than warming their various squad benches, I can see why it's being considered.
Obviously I'm against it, as I care more about OUFC than England.
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Post by Eaststandboy on May 6, 2014 14:41:02 GMT
Why not make the reserve league better?
Why not have a B league seperate to the pyramid?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 14:50:29 GMT
Why not make the reserve league better? Why not have a B league seperate to the pyramid? Yeh, can't see the need for the new division to be in the promotion/relegation hierarchy. If they're concerned about introducing adequate competition, surely winning the division would be incentive enough?
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Post by jammydodger on May 6, 2014 15:03:05 GMT
I think I'd agree with it only if the clubs were told to start in the southern/northern/isthmian league(steps 7-8) at the highest like Wimbledon, FC Manchester and Chester have done. Sort of like in the Hellenic League with reserve and first teams combined.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on May 6, 2014 15:06:45 GMT
Even then, I feel it might be introducing a whole school of sharks into a pool of minnows.
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Post by harryhalitosis on May 6, 2014 15:28:56 GMT
Hmm, I think that's optimistic. The rule that a single person could not own two clubs seems like a sensible one - and this drives a coach and horses through it. Whichever ground a B team plays on, they still have an advantage. The backup facilities, medical staff, training grounds they have will put them at an immediate advantage over other Conference teams. Add in the fact that they have no real pressure to succeed, can bring in new, highly rated youngsters at will twice a season (at effectively no cost), no financial pressures (Chelsea 'B' aren't going to fold for the sake of a few thousand or even a few million quid!). I still maintain it isn't a level playing ground. Add in the fact that they are being parachuted into a new division created for them half way up the pyramid and it all stinks. FFP rules will be got around with sponsorships etc, the players will not be all English - and as for benefits to other clubs, what do to think the travelling support of Hull 'B' will be? Will this be a reason for larger clubs to hoover up yet more youngsters to see if they make the grade? The loan system works OK - and could be expanded if the Prem teams had the will to do so. This will kill it pretty dead, at least for clubs at our level. Robbie Hall and Ryan Williams (for example) would have been playing for their club's B teams. Not us. I don't disagree with anything you say, but there has to be a better way of English players graduating to the top flight & international football than currently exists. The loan system works to an extent but there aren't many examples of where someone like Jermaine Defoe is loaned to Bournemouth (as he was 15 yrs ago) and then makes the grade at intl level. The Dyke review is all about looking at the future of the national game so, to an extent, this will always only look at the future top players at the expense of lower league clubs. Although I know there are a few reasons why a single owner can't own 2 or more clubs (dominance, betting rules etc) these are almost side issues and I can't see a problem if Abramovitch wants to buy into a team further down the pyramid like Aldershot (he's already given them players plus the Stamford Bridge pitch anyway). The issue about ensuring these B teams only use English (or British) players is a bit more tricky, personally I don't see why the league can't just distribute the TV deal money according to how many English players per club from the top flight down to grass roots football.....you would soon see Chelsea, Man City etc field more British talent if they are set to lose some £ by signing the top world players (except Sky etc would probably moan if this was introduced). As for the bigger clubs hoovering up even more young players - this is both a benefit and a risk. If Pellegrini has a day off and decides to watch Man City B team v Oxford, this exposes more lower league talent to the watching eyes of the top managers than probably happens now. I can see it now.....Bevons has a cracking game v Man City B, Man City B sign him in the hope he can eventually be transferred to their A team, but play him alongside their own top youngsters, coached by better coaches than OUFC can offer, thus improving his own developmental chances. English talent improves. What's the alternative for Bevons? He hopes that another local club like Reading send their scout to watch him, he eventually joins them and if he's lucky moves up to the premiership with them or another club. This could take 4-5 yrs, wheras the B team scenario would tke only 1-2 years. HH
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Post by mooro on May 6, 2014 15:38:14 GMT
Even then, I feel it might be introducing a whole school of sharks into a pool of minnows. These B teams would be at least L1 if not Championship standard, but wherever you release them will massively distort the pyramid as it stands. Anywhere below their true level, will just mean 2 or 3 B teams moving up to replace 2 or 3 teams coming down from, say L2, who will then basically fall to the bottom of that division and compete with the two teams that came up from teh Conference to avoid relegation. Straight away L2 then gets taken over by rising B teams, who then progress into L1 instead of smaller clubs. Merging them in with the current leagues, say having L2 N&S, would still have the same impact on a diluted scale, but is perhaps also a trojan horse from the FA to see whether the general regional idea at L2 is a goer, before imposing it regardless. Putting them at the bottom of the pyramid, while technically the correct thing to do would make a mockery of ecah level as the B teams rose up the ladder taking all the promotion slots. Even putting it say between the championship and L1 would still erect a wall between the haves and have nots of the Football League. -- Fair play to Michael Owen, I dont always agree with what he spouts, but that latter idea of a draft of loanees among the lower clubs, might just have some legs on it. I like the idea of sharing them out rather than relying on who knows who. There would have to be some thought into how many players each club could put up for loan, whether they could specify which division they go to, who gets to choose first, what happens with regard to injuries/replacements etc, but I can see it working to some extent. BTW - for all of these ideas, I would extend the criteria to British rather than English, mainly because the English league has always been the proving ground for many Welsh, Irish and Scottish players, so I think that that would sit better with most people.
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Post by oxfordharrier on May 6, 2014 16:08:49 GMT
Ah yes, Greg "there're too many professional clubs in England" Dyke, and a cartel of foreign prem and champ owners who want to protect their investment and would quite like to end relegation.
The conference is a red herring - this is the deathknell for any club outside the top two divisions. I'm not sure some on here have worked out yet that this is really going to screw things up for the average club, and that the average club includes OUFC.
What seems to be on the table is genuine "free gangway" up and down from this division, creating the potential for havoc at both ends. The long-term prize, of course, is to get say Liverpool A into the Championship. That way there's a backstop for Liverpool to not fall further than the Championship, because they get two bites at the cherry. If they end up in the same division then the A team resigns to the division below, and, if it qualifies for promotion to the same division as the other one then it refuses and bed blocks.
To an extent this is already the case in rugby union (Bedford are basically Saracens A) - and don't think that the big club owners don't look across at the rugby premiership enviously with its "I'm alright Jack" approach to anyone outside the top flight.
This is franchising by the back door, aiming to prop up a wealthy elite at the expense of Leagues 1, 2, and anyone in Championship without a bigenough chequebook to act fast when it happens and take them on at their own game. The appalling second option, which has also doen the rounds over the last year or so in the talking shops of the top two flights, is the formalising of the nursery system. Eg, Oxford does a deal with Hull (for example) to be their nursery club and use their academy players. In return, they're not allowed to accept promotion to the same level as Hull at any point, and anyone who plays well is whisked away at a moments notice to play for Hull. Long term, Oxford, Kidderminster, Rochdale, whoever are turned into zombie "clubs" for the furtherance of a franchise. If they try and stay aloof and take them on, they'll get trampled by lack of money.
This is the start of the thin end of the wedge, and needs to be resisted by clubs, supporters trusts, Supporters Direct, and indeed non Prem/Champ club owners. If allowed to go through, it has the potential to change the landscape of English club football, and rip up over a hundred years of the legue system. Anyone who thinks Oxford are going to be on anything other than the sh*tty end of that stick needs their head examining. It's not about decimating the conference clubs, it's going to shaft everyone without a huge chequebook (and even some of them in subsequent years).
Maybe we have too got too many clubs, as Mr Dyke thinks, but are we all sure what box we're opening if this is the solution?
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Post by Eaststandboy on May 6, 2014 16:24:21 GMT
What happens if, for example, a big team say Portsmouth get relegated to 3 but Portsmouth B get up to L1 or Championship. are they going to swap names?
Looks pathetic if a B team goes above an A team
Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards
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Post by oxfordharrier on May 6, 2014 17:21:02 GMT
What happens if, for example, a big team say Portsmouth get relegated to 3 but Portsmouth B get up to L1 or Championship. are they going to swap names? Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards Yes. Or, more likely, "Portsmouth" would be whichever was higher all the time. 2 spots in the league for the same club - protects your investment, starves rivals....
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Post by oufcyellows on May 6, 2014 17:28:54 GMT
What happens if, for example, a big team say Portsmouth get relegated to 3 but Portsmouth B get up to L1 or Championship. are they going to swap names? Looks pathetic if a B team goes above an A team Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards It said in one of the other quotes that if it follows other examples like the Dutch league the b team play at what ever level but can never be promoted. How that works I don't know. Suppose the 2nd team go up as champions. I don't see why it needs changing, he says it to get the younger English players experience in the mans game , well that's how it works now anyway with people like Williams
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