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Post by Mark on Dec 11, 2017 22:27:52 GMT
So my point is that sometimes club owners pay up front for the privilege of losing money year after year, even with a chance of selling on.
Really what’s the difference between paying £10 million for a club and then spending £20million extra. Or paying £1million and spending £29 million extra over the next few seasons ?
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Post by iambungle on Dec 11, 2017 23:46:01 GMT
£13 million at 4% over 25 years on a repayment mortgage is is circa £850,000 per annum on repayments add £1 million for general repairs because it will need them then it is likely repayments are £900,000 per annum plus annual maintenance at say £200,000 so the costs to the club are likely to doubling that is without us even trying to improve and expand the ground or spend money developing the concourses etc. With the greatest respect I have had many conversations with owners, fans etc where people have discussed with me contributing to this and i always get quoted things like the club will cost 4 or 6 million. The ground will be 8 or 10 maybe 13 million and fundamentally there is a huge difference between these figures. When people discuss these number they say 8 or 10 million and even on this thread people say an extra 5 million as if money just grows on trees and its no problem. Trying to persuade someone with the ability to pay 4 million for something worth 2 million or nothing or trying to buy a stadium for 13 million thats worth 8 million may sound like nothing when you write it down on a forum or discuss it on the terraces but when you stop to think it is massive. If you have the ability to do this a few things run through mind like :- 1)to buy it at the quoted £13 million the club is worse off with the hassle of running it and they may run it worse, unlikely but you need to budget for it unless you have lots of friendly cash available post purchase. 2) anyone with 10's of millions won't over pay to the extent it looks you might as it will not sit well, you have to also accept overpaying and someone making money on you which for people who have generally made money by doing good deals is not good for the ego! And no one in life likes overpaying but who really wants to burn 5 million pounds plus for something that is run down and neglected, it needs finishing and also has so many facilities around it that you can't build your own hotels etc etc I am a fan which makes me more likely than most to accept these problems or issues for the greater good of the club but I struggle to justify spending my money that way albeit I am sure I could be persuaded if a deal looks possible. Basically even if it wasn't commercially sensibly I could be persuaded to take a view on some funds but the deal looks so so stupid I can't justify it. However there may be ways to make the deal look more sensible with fans/council involvement and a community feel but for a perspective purchaser or even Darryl i just cannot see how they would justify the numbers. If you want the ground to make a difference and are commercial about it then you have to write off at least £20 to £25 million accepting you will have something worth potentially nothing or £150 million. The logic to that comment is that if you develop the stadium you will never move and therefore it is worth nothing for housing etc etc it just becomes an asset to help the club achieve success as you will never realise the land value and the club will stay there forever. Therefore the ground only becomes of value as an income generator to help the football club be successful. What is the club worth £150 at Premier League level? £20-25 million with stadium at championship level (you can get Some big championship clubs for that - i have been offered them). League One no idea but i wouldn't pay £10 million for OUFC even if it owned the ground in league 1 - it would still lose money if it had a typical promotion budget - i expect someone would though but if the ground comes with debt and high running costs it will be worth very little. So in the short term the club would be worse off if people funded it and required repayment so therefore we need someone with real vision and deep pockets to not be bothered and also spend money on the club. Or people who acquire it, don't develop it and have a plan to move sites and realise the real estate value of the current site whilst acquiring a cheaper site. The one advantage we have over all over the clubs though is internationally the brand of Oxford, if marketed and invested in correctly it will make us one of the most attractive clubs in the world. We need to sell this point and explain we have a fanbase that can attract 30-40k people at Wembley, we are geographically well placed, a one team county, a booming population, a big potential fanbase etc and this can compensate for the spend. That is how i would attract worlwide investment. Why buy Reading, Hull, Wolves, Plymouth, Luton, Coventry, Huddersfield, Cardiff when you can have OXFORD UNITED etc - whilst they are the same size or bigger at the moment they are not globally the same as saying you own oxford to all these far eastern potential fans in India, China, Malaysia etc will fall in love with Oxford and it will be a good asset for you to mention in business dealings around the world - that is how i would massage the ego of a wealthy foreign investor - they could be convinced and i think that is our best chance. Focus on what we have - we have something no other club does - we are OXFORD UNITED don't miss out on owning one of the worlds best potentially untapped sporting brands!!!! - there you go i have convinced myself anyway! Maybe I have read this wrong but on one hand you are saying that it would cost £900k a year if someone borrowed the 13 mil and that we would quite possibly be worse off than we are now, which i totally accept, but then you are saying some one with '10s of millions' won't pay 13 mil cos its only worth 8. If there is someone out there 'with 10s of millions' would they need to borrow the 13mil? What we need is for Kassam to be willing to sell and for a buyer with a few hundred mil floating about. Not much to ask is it.
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Post by oufcbenjyp on Dec 12, 2017 7:09:07 GMT
Rather than waiting on someone with a few hundred million to turn up, wouldn’t it be more realistic to put a community fund together and buy the asset ourselves? Surely we are the only ones prepared to stomach a sub optimal return but at least we get our ground back? If the price tag is 13m would people buy shares in the community owned asset? It would require 25,000 investors each stumping up £520. Clearly people could put in what they could afford, some less and some more to get to that figure. You could even stick the thing in an ISA if you wanted, there is a new Innovative Finance ISA which allows crowd funding ideas, so any return you might get would at least be tax free.
I’ve got a bit of experience in this so would be happy to explore if there was interest. The question is can we find that number of investors and that amount of cash within the mighty fan base that is OUFC?
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Post by oufcwaffle on Dec 12, 2017 9:33:16 GMT
Rather than waiting on someone with a few hundred million to turn up, wouldn’t it be more realistic to put a community fund together and buy the asset ourselves? Surely we are the only ones prepared to stomach a sub optimal return but at least we get our ground back? If the price tag is 13m would people buy shares in the community owned asset? It would require 25,000 investors each stumping up £520. Clearly people could put in what they could afford, some less and some more to get to that figure. You could even stick the thing in an ISA if you wanted, there is a new Innovative Finance ISA which allows crowd funding ideas, so any return you might get would at least be tax free. I’ve got a bit of experience in this so would be happy to explore if there was interest. The question is can we find that number of investors and that amount of cash within the mighty fan base that is OUFC? There's no doubt that everyone on here would be willing, it's just about convincing everyone else. We have a core fan base of say 6-7k people and if on average they all spent a max of £500 that brings it to only £3.5m which is just over a quarter of the cost best case scenario. In reality it would be much less taking into account many of the numbers are families and you can't exactly expect most families to just whip out £2k to throw away. So let's say worst case scenario we can only put together around £2m, that alone wouldn't be close to buying the ground but it would certainly help any individuals looking to buy.
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Post by mcf86 on Dec 12, 2017 10:04:07 GMT
What next, get out the collection buckets again?
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Post by MJB on Dec 12, 2017 11:34:30 GMT
Rather than waiting on someone with a few hundred million to turn up, wouldn’t it be more realistic to put a community fund together and buy the asset ourselves? Surely we are the only ones prepared to stomach a sub optimal return but at least we get our ground back? If the price tag is 13m would people buy shares in the community owned asset? It would require 25,000 investors each stumping up £520. Clearly people could put in what they could afford, some less and some more to get to that figure. You could even stick the thing in an ISA if you wanted, there is a new Innovative Finance ISA which allows crowd funding ideas, so any return you might get would at least be tax free. I’ve got a bit of experience in this so would be happy to explore if there was interest. The question is can we find that number of investors and that amount of cash within the mighty fan base that is OUFC? Raise it with OxVox - it might not be feasible, but certainly worth exploring and discussing further. I don’t think anyone believes that it would raise the total figure, but it might help to support the club and A.N. Other investor.
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Post by horseman on Dec 12, 2017 11:41:47 GMT
I would be very surprised if there were many fans who have £500 + doing nothing let alone wish to top up the already healthy bank balance of the stadium owner.
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Post by oufcbenjyp on Dec 12, 2017 11:57:56 GMT
I would be very surprised if there were many fans who have £500 + doing nothing let alone wish to top up the already healthy bank balance of the stadium owner. And therein lies the problem. If we as fans aren’t willing to buy the stadium how can we expect anyone else who may have had no prior affiliation with the club to do it?? The fans are the ones who care most about the club so the problem is ours to solve.
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Post by oufcbenjyp on Dec 12, 2017 12:16:13 GMT
£13 million at 4% over 25 years on a repayment mortgage is is circa £850,000 per annum on repayments add £1 million for general repairs because it will need them then it is likely repayments are £900,000 per annum plus annual maintenance at say £200,000 so the costs to the club are likely to doubling that is without us even trying to improve and expand the ground or spend money developing the concourses etc. With the greatest respect I have had many conversations with owners, fans etc where people have discussed with me contributing to this and i always get quoted things like the club will cost 4 or 6 million. The ground will be 8 or 10 maybe 13 million and fundamentally there is a huge difference between these figures. When people discuss these number they say 8 or 10 million and even on this thread people say an extra 5 million as if money just grows on trees and its no problem. Trying to persuade someone with the ability to pay 4 million for something worth 2 million or nothing or trying to buy a stadium for 13 million thats worth 8 million may sound like nothing when you write it down on a forum or discuss it on the terraces but when you stop to think it is massive. If you have the ability to do this a few things run through mind like :- 1)to buy it at the quoted £13 million the club is worse off with the hassle of running it and they may run it worse, unlikely but you need to budget for it unless you have lots of friendly cash available post purchase. 2) anyone with 10's of millions won't over pay to the extent it looks you might as it will not sit well, you have to also accept overpaying and someone making money on you which for people who have generally made money by doing good deals is not good for the ego! And no one in life likes overpaying but who really wants to burn 5 million pounds plus for something that is run down and neglected, it needs finishing and also has so many facilities around it that you can't build your own hotels etc etc I am a fan which makes me more likely than most to accept these problems or issues for the greater good of the club but I struggle to justify spending my money that way albeit I am sure I could be persuaded if a deal looks possible. Basically even if it wasn't commercially sensibly I could be persuaded to take a view on some funds but the deal looks so so stupid I can't justify it. However there may be ways to make the deal look more sensible with fans/council involvement and a community feel but for a perspective purchaser or even Darryl i just cannot see how they would justify the numbers. If you want the ground to make a difference and are commercial about it then you have to write off at least £20 to £25 million accepting you will have something worth potentially nothing or £150 million. The logic to that comment is that if you develop the stadium you will never move and therefore it is worth nothing for housing etc etc it just becomes an asset to help the club achieve success as you will never realise the land value and the club will stay there forever. Therefore the ground only becomes of value as an income generator to help the football club be successful. What is the club worth £150 at Premier League level? £20-25 million with stadium at championship level (you can get Some big championship clubs for that - i have been offered them). League One no idea but i wouldn't pay £10 million for OUFC even if it owned the ground in league 1 - it would still lose money if it had a typical promotion budget - i expect someone would though but if the ground comes with debt and high running costs it will be worth very little. So in the short term the club would be worse off if people funded it and required repayment so therefore we need someone with real vision and deep pockets to not be bothered and also spend money on the club. Or people who acquire it, don't develop it and have a plan to move sites and realise the real estate value of the current site whilst acquiring a cheaper site. The one advantage we have over all over the clubs though is internationally the brand of Oxford, if marketed and invested in correctly it will make us one of the most attractive clubs in the world. We need to sell this point and explain we have a fanbase that can attract 30-40k people at Wembley, we are geographically well placed, a one team county, a booming population, a big potential fanbase etc and this can compensate for the spend. That is how i would attract worlwide investment. Why buy Reading, Hull, Wolves, Plymouth, Luton, Coventry, Huddersfield, Cardiff when you can have OXFORD UNITED etc - whilst they are the same size or bigger at the moment they are not globally the same as saying you own oxford to all these far eastern potential fans in India, China, Malaysia etc will fall in love with Oxford and it will be a good asset for you to mention in business dealings around the world - that is how i would massage the ego of a wealthy foreign investor - they could be convinced and i think that is our best chance. Focus on what we have - we have something no other club does - we are OXFORD UNITED don't miss out on owning one of the worlds best potentially untapped sporting brands!!!! - there you go i have convinced myself anyway! I completely buy into the notion that Oxford is one of the few clubs in the land that could make the step up to be a force to be reckoned with in the Premier League. We are talking about a city known around the world with huge marketing appeal. We have potentially a far bigger fan base just waiting to be attracted by a 21st century stadium and facilities. Why can’t we embark on a journey similar to Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Stoke etc etc - all of these cities do not have the cache that Oxford has. I may be looking through yellow tinted glasses but I can’t see a reason why this can’t be done with the right financial backing.
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Post by horseman on Dec 12, 2017 12:58:29 GMT
The sad thing is that a great number of the people that keep clubs at our level going with their continued support are very likely to be priced out from attending very often should we ever reach the top league again. As i have already mentioned before and i know charlie has well researched figures to shoot this down but in the 50 odd years following Oxford there has never been that much interest in our club..Even now many have to pick and choose games due to many factors and others prefer away games,days out when a cup tie at a prem club and cannot/do not attend the next home game etc.
There is next to nothing done by the club to attract people to attend, it is still very much the lazy they'll turn up approach and a massive own goal with the 20.000 + that attended wembley.
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Post by ox4eva on Dec 12, 2017 19:16:18 GMT
I would be very surprised if there were many fans who have £500 + doing nothing let alone wish to top up the already healthy bank balance of the stadium owner. And therein lies the problem. If we as fans aren’t willing to buy the stadium how can we expect anyone else who may have had no prior affiliation with the club to do it?? The fans are the ones who care most about the club so the problem is ours to solve. I keep mentioning a share issue but it's not something anyone seems to be interested in!
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Post by Pete Burrett on Dec 12, 2017 19:26:35 GMT
I would be very surprised if there were many fans who have £500 + doing nothing let alone wish to top up the already healthy bank balance of the stadium owner. And therein lies the problem. If we as fans aren’t willing to buy the stadium how can we expect anyone else who may have had no prior affiliation with the club to do it?? The fans are the ones who care most about the club so the problem is ours to solve. Tiger - or someone like him - won't be buying the stadium for love of the club. They will either believe that can fund promotion to the promised land, or see some value in the land. It would certainly be better if a load of individual fans bought it, but is that realistic? And how would a deal be structured between, say, 5,000 stadium owning fans and a Tiger type who owns the club?
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Post by MJB on Dec 12, 2017 19:39:35 GMT
And therein lies the problem. If we as fans aren’t willing to buy the stadium how can we expect anyone else who may have had no prior affiliation with the club to do it?? The fans are the ones who care most about the club so the problem is ours to solve. Tiger - or someone like him - won't be buying the stadium for love of the club. They will either believe that can fund promotion to the promised land, or see some value in the land. It would certainly be better if a load of individual fans bought it, but is that realistic? And how would a deal be structured between, say, 5,000 stadium owning fans and a Tiger type who owns the club? He gets the Fence End, we get everything else.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Dec 12, 2017 20:08:59 GMT
£13 million at 4% over 25 years on a repayment mortgage is is circa £850,000 per annum on repayments add £1 million for general repairs because it will need them then it is likely repayments are £900,000 per annum plus annual maintenance at say £200,000 so the costs to the club are likely to doubling that is without us even trying to improve and expand the ground or spend money developing the concourses etc. With the greatest respect I have had many conversations with owners, fans etc where people have discussed with me contributing to this and i always get quoted things like the club will cost 4 or 6 million. The ground will be 8 or 10 maybe 13 million and fundamentally there is a huge difference between these figures. When people discuss these number they say 8 or 10 million and even on this thread people say an extra 5 million as if money just grows on trees and its no problem. Trying to persuade someone with the ability to pay 4 million for something worth 2 million or nothing or trying to buy a stadium for 13 million thats worth 8 million may sound like nothing when you write it down on a forum or discuss it on the terraces but when you stop to think it is massive. If you have the ability to do this a few things run through mind like :- 1)to buy it at the quoted £13 million the club is worse off with the hassle of running it and they may run it worse, unlikely but you need to budget for it unless you have lots of friendly cash available post purchase. 2) anyone with 10's of millions won't over pay to the extent it looks you might as it will not sit well, you have to also accept overpaying and someone making money on you which for people who have generally made money by doing good deals is not good for the ego! And no one in life likes overpaying but who really wants to burn 5 million pounds plus for something that is run down and neglected, it needs finishing and also has so many facilities around it that you can't build your own hotels etc etc I am a fan which makes me more likely than most to accept these problems or issues for the greater good of the club but I struggle to justify spending my money that way albeit I am sure I could be persuaded if a deal looks possible. Basically even if it wasn't commercially sensibly I could be persuaded to take a view on some funds but the deal looks so so stupid I can't justify it. However there may be ways to make the deal look more sensible with fans/council involvement and a community feel but for a perspective purchaser or even Darryl i just cannot see how they would justify the numbers. If you want the ground to make a difference and are commercial about it then you have to write off at least £20 to £25 million accepting you will have something worth potentially nothing or £150 million. The logic to that comment is that if you develop the stadium you will never move and therefore it is worth nothing for housing etc etc it just becomes an asset to help the club achieve success as you will never realise the land value and the club will stay there forever. Therefore the ground only becomes of value as an income generator to help the football club be successful. What is the club worth £150 at Premier League level? £20-25 million with stadium at championship level (you can get Some big championship clubs for that - i have been offered them). League One no idea but i wouldn't pay £10 million for OUFC even if it owned the ground in league 1 - it would still lose money if it had a typical promotion budget - i expect someone would though but if the ground comes with debt and high running costs it will be worth very little. So in the short term the club would be worse off if people funded it and required repayment so therefore we need someone with real vision and deep pockets to not be bothered and also spend money on the club. Or people who acquire it, don't develop it and have a plan to move sites and realise the real estate value of the current site whilst acquiring a cheaper site. The one advantage we have over all over the clubs though is internationally the brand of Oxford, if marketed and invested in correctly it will make us one of the most attractive clubs in the world. We need to sell this point and explain we have a fanbase that can attract 30-40k people at Wembley, we are geographically well placed, a one team county, a booming population, a big potential fanbase etc and this can compensate for the spend. That is how i would attract worlwide investment. Why buy Reading, Hull, Wolves, Plymouth, Luton, Coventry, Huddersfield, Cardiff when you can have OXFORD UNITED etc - whilst they are the same size or bigger at the moment they are not globally the same as saying you own oxford to all these far eastern potential fans in India, China, Malaysia etc will fall in love with Oxford and it will be a good asset for you to mention in business dealings around the world - that is how i would massage the ego of a wealthy foreign investor - they could be convinced and i think that is our best chance. Focus on what we have - we have something no other club does - we are OXFORD UNITED don't miss out on owning one of the worlds best potentially untapped sporting brands!!!! - there you go i have convinced myself anyway! I completely buy into the notion that Oxford is one of the few clubs in the land that could make the step up to be a force to be reckoned with in the Premier League. We are talking about a city known around the world with huge marketing appeal. We have potentially a far bigger fan base just waiting to be attracted by a 21st century stadium and facilities. Why can’t we embark on a journey similar to Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Stoke etc etc - all of these cities do not have the cache that Oxford has. I may be looking through yellow tinted glasses but I can’t see a reason why this can’t be done with the right financial backing. Bournemouth are there because some Russian billionaire is chucking millions at Bournemouth without him they wouldn’t be there. They certainly haven’t earned their right to be there. Oxford we couldn’t compete unless someone with 100’s of millions chuck his money at us, which also leaves us open to getting married not serious financial shit and possible liquidation, we haven’t got the fan base to compete in the Premier Huddersfield and Stoke do, but Bournemouth don’t.
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Post by Mark on Dec 12, 2017 20:26:05 GMT
I completely buy into the notion that Oxford is one of the few clubs in the land that could make the step up to be a force to be reckoned with in the Premier League. We are talking about a city known around the world with huge marketing appeal. We have potentially a far bigger fan base just waiting to be attracted by a 21st century stadium and facilities. Why can’t we embark on a journey similar to Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Stoke etc etc - all of these cities do not have the cache that Oxford has. I may be looking through yellow tinted glasses but I can’t see a reason why this can’t be done with the right financial backing. Bournemouth are there because some Russian billionaire is chucking millions at Bournemouth without him they wouldn’t be there. They certainly haven’t earned their right to be there. Oxford we couldn’t compete unless someone with 100’s of millions chuck his money at us, which also leaves us open to getting married not serious financial shit and possible liquidation, we haven’t got the fan base to compete in the Premier Huddersfield and Stoke do, but Bournemouth don’t. I get that we don’t have a weekly fan base like those mentioned. But potentially looking at our Wembley crowds we might have a lot more in the Championship etc.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Dec 12, 2017 20:33:58 GMT
I completely buy into the notion that Oxford is one of the few clubs in the land that could make the step up to be a force to be reckoned with in the Premier League. We are talking about a city known around the world with huge marketing appeal. We have potentially a far bigger fan base just waiting to be attracted by a 21st century stadium and facilities. Why can’t we embark on a journey similar to Brighton, Bournemouth, Huddersfield, Stoke etc etc - all of these cities do not have the cache that Oxford has. I may be looking through yellow tinted glasses but I can’t see a reason why this can’t be done with the right financial backing. Bournemouth are there because some Russian billionaire is chucking millions at Bournemouth without him they wouldn’t be there. They certainly haven’t earned their right to be there. Oxford we couldn’t compete unless someone with 100’s of millions chuck his money at us, which also leaves us open to getting married not serious financial shit and possible liquidation, we haven’t got the fan base to compete in the Premier Huddersfield and Stoke do, but Bournemouth don’t. I agree Baz. It's a complex area though. You can't just look at catchment populations and assume you can fill a stadium. The people in that catchment have to WANT to come and watch football. Bournemouth's catchment population is irrelevant because, as you say, they're being bankrolled by serious money. The city of Oxford undoubtedly has a significant cachet, but I'm not convinced - despite the 30,000 who go to Wembley with us - that enough people would watch us week in, week out at any level. To argue against myself, look how Reading's gates dramatically increased a few years ago, and if we could get a multi-billionaire owner, our gates wouldn't matter either.
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Post by oufcbenjyp on Dec 12, 2017 20:47:56 GMT
Bournemouth are there because some Russian billionaire is chucking millions at Bournemouth without him they wouldn’t be there. They certainly haven’t earned their right to be there. Oxford we couldn’t compete unless someone with 100’s of millions chuck his money at us, which also leaves us open to getting married not serious financial shit and possible liquidation, we haven’t got the fan base to compete in the Premier Huddersfield and Stoke do, but Bournemouth don’t. I agree Baz. It's a complex area though. You can't just look at catchment populations and assume you can fill a stadium. The people in that catchment have to WANT to come and watch football. Bournemouth's catchment population is irrelevant because, as you say, they're being bankrolled by serious money. The city of Oxford undoubtedly has a significant cachet, but I'm not convinced - despite the 30,000 who go to Wembley with us - that enough people would watch us week in, week out at any level. To argue against myself, look how Reading's gates dramatically increased a few years ago, and if we could get a multi-billionaire owner, our gates wouldn't matter either. I’m not sure I follow Pete. Are you saying people in Oxford don’t want to come and watch football as much as people in Huddersfield? I think if the facilities were right, a la Reading as you say, then the product is much more attractive and people will spend their money and come along. At the moment our match day experience is poor, not helped by non existent marketing and hence an average gate between 6500 and 7000 is the result.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Dec 12, 2017 20:54:30 GMT
I agree Baz. It's a complex area though. You can't just look at catchment populations and assume you can fill a stadium. The people in that catchment have to WANT to come and watch football. Bournemouth's catchment population is irrelevant because, as you say, they're being bankrolled by serious money. The city of Oxford undoubtedly has a significant cachet, but I'm not convinced - despite the 30,000 who go to Wembley with us - that enough people would watch us week in, week out at any level. To argue against myself, look how Reading's gates dramatically increased a few years ago, and if we could get a multi-billionaire owner, our gates wouldn't matter either. I’m not sure I follow Pete. Are you saying people in Oxford don’t want to come and watch football as much as people in Huddersfield? I think if the facilities were right, a la Reading as you say, then the product is much more attractive and people will spend their money and come along. At the moment our match day experience is poor, not helped by non existent marketing and hence an average gate between 6500 and 7000 is the result. I don't know to be honest! It's pretty much guesswork. The 30,000 at Wembley should really be discounted as a measure of latent support. The county is a stone's throw from Wembley so it's not surprising that so many fancy a day out. The defining factor is how big our core support is. We get 7,000 of our own fans at home, which might represent 15,000 different people? I suppose it's reasonable to expect all 15,000 might come every week if we were higher up the pyramid and in a bigger, better stadium. But that's guesswork. It would be interesting to look at Huddersfield's attendances when they were in the lower tiers.
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Post by 1OUFC on Dec 12, 2017 21:18:40 GMT
Does anyone know how the Portsmouth model of fans ownership worked before they were recently taken over? There have been other examples of a similar model, AFC Wimbledon maybe. The old Phoenix from the ashes.
I wonder if our core fan base is big enough to achieve something similar.
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Post by oufcbenjyp on Dec 12, 2017 21:25:39 GMT
I’m not sure I follow Pete. Are you saying people in Oxford don’t want to come and watch football as much as people in Huddersfield? I think if the facilities were right, a la Reading as you say, then the product is much more attractive and people will spend their money and come along. At the moment our match day experience is poor, not helped by non existent marketing and hence an average gate between 6500 and 7000 is the result. I don't know to be honest! It's pretty much guesswork. The 30,000 at Wembley should really be discounted as a measure of latent support. The county is a stone's throw from Wembley so it's not surprising that so many fancy a day out. The defining factor is how big our core support is. We get 7,000 of our own fans at home, which might represent 15,000 different people? I suppose it's reasonable to expect all 15,000 might come every week if we were higher up the pyramid and in a bigger, better stadium. But that's guesswork. It would be interesting to look at Huddersfield's attendances when they were in the lower tiers. Just found a stat that between 2009 and 2012 when Huddersfield were in League 1 their average gate fee was between 12500 and 14000. So they’ve basically added another c9000 now that they are Premier League. Another one for the stattos, if leagues were decided on attendance we would be 13th in League 1, a place lower than Luton Town but 4 places above Swindon....
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 12, 2017 21:38:32 GMT
www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/englandcontent.htmYou can click on individual team and look at their historic avarage crowds, Stoke averaged 30+ in the 60s. Huddersfield averaged 30K+ in the 50s, Reading averaged 16K in the 50s, even little old Bournemouth have averaged 16k in the past. Oxford ? A paltry 11,637,it wasn't even in the glory years,it was in the 2nd division in 1969. I don't know what the capacity of the Manor was in 69,but it was 17k when i started going,so plenty of room. Oxford hasn't and never has had a large fanbase. P.S. The scum avaraged 20k in 1969 in division 2. They also averaged 16k in divison 3 South in 1949. They also averaged 3,221 in 1985 !!
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 12, 2017 21:47:27 GMT
I don't know to be honest! It's pretty much guesswork. The 30,000 at Wembley should really be discounted as a measure of latent support. The county is a stone's throw from Wembley so it's not surprising that so many fancy a day out. The defining factor is how big our core support is. We get 7,000 of our own fans at home, which might represent 15,000 different people? I suppose it's reasonable to expect all 15,000 might come every week if we were higher up the pyramid and in a bigger, better stadium. But that's guesswork. It would be interesting to look at Huddersfield's attendances when they were in the lower tiers. Just found a stat that between 2009 and 2012 when Huddersfield were in League 1 their average gate fee was between 12500 and 14000. So they’ve basically added another c9000 now that they are Premier League. Another one for the stattos, if leagues were decided on attendance we would be 13th in League 1, a place lower than Luton Town but 4 places above Swindon.... As i posted Huddersfield averaged 30k in the 50s. P.S. Burnley has a population of just 73k. With average crowds of 21k it means almost 30% go and watch them every week.
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Post by essexyellows on Dec 12, 2017 21:50:12 GMT
And therein lies the problem. If we as fans aren’t willing to buy the stadium how can we expect anyone else who may have had no prior affiliation with the club to do it?? The fans are the ones who care most about the club so the problem is ours to solve. I keep mentioning a share issue but it's not something anyone seems to be interested in!If someone said to me "Chuck in £500 so we can buy the ground" I would say no. If someone said "Want to buy £1,000 of shares in OUFC Supporters Stadium Ltd" I would say yes. Why? Because (no disrespect to philanthropic investors or folk investing for return) its MY club. And there are plenty of folk like me in our fanbase who would do the same..... Are there enough? Don`t know. Could we form an investment fund purely to buy the ground? Don`t know. I wouldn`t expect a return.... unless its sold off for housing!
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Post by londonroader on Dec 13, 2017 7:12:35 GMT
I don't know to be honest! It's pretty much guesswork. The 30,000 at Wembley should really be discounted as a measure of latent support. The county is a stone's throw from Wembley so it's not surprising that so many fancy a day out. The defining factor is how big our core support is. We get 7,000 of our own fans at home, which might represent 15,000 different people? I suppose it's reasonable to expect all 15,000 might come every week if we were higher up the pyramid and in a bigger, better stadium. But that's guesswork. It would be interesting to look at Huddersfield's attendances when they were in the lower tiers. Just found a stat that between 2009 and 2012 when Huddersfield were in League 1 their average gate fee was between 12500 and 14000. So they’ve basically added another c9000 now that they are Premier League. Another one for the stattos, if leagues were decided on attendance we would be 13th in League 1, a place lower than Luton Town but 4 places above Swindon.... To be pedantic both those other teams are not in our division. When we scrapped promotion from the conference, our attendances in the league were not greatly increased once the novelty factor wore off. Personally I don't see any realistic way the fans can buy the club by volumes of numbers, I think it will be a smaller group of individuals who set up a company to buy and run the club, but I don't see buying the club as the holy grail because league position and TV money is far more important for revenue streams.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Dec 13, 2017 7:29:13 GMT
Bournemouth are there because some Russian billionaire is chucking millions at Bournemouth without him they wouldn’t be there. They certainly haven’t earned their right to be there. Oxford we couldn’t compete unless someone with 100’s of millions chuck his money at us, which also leaves us open to getting married not serious financial shit and possible liquidation, we haven’t got the fan base to compete in the Premier Huddersfield and Stoke do, but Bournemouth don’t. I get that we don’t have a weekly fan base like those mentioned. But potentially looking at our Wembley crowds we might have a lot more in the Championship etc. Mark, seriously? Would love those sort of crowds or at least 2/3rds of those crowds at our games ( that is off course we the capacity ) yes if we got into the championship with out capacity we should achieve gates of 11,000 + but that would be with approximately 2,000 away supporters, can’t see OB allowing that but it would be good. Wembley are special days and a lot of day trippers came but never to be seen again unless of course we get to Wembley again. Sorry Mark our crowds won’t get much bigger than around 11,000 home fans that is off course in the championship and that is if we are doing well.
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Post by bazzer9461 on Dec 13, 2017 7:32:17 GMT
Does anyone know how the Portsmouth model of fans ownership worked before they were recently taken over? There have been other examples of a similar model, AFC Wimbledon maybe. The old Phoenix from the ashes.
I wonder if our core fan base is big enough to achieve something similar. They took Chaneri to court and forced the sale
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Post by scotchegg on Dec 13, 2017 7:51:44 GMT
I don't want to get everyone's hopes up but I won £3.10 on the euromillions last night!! Still need to speak with my financial advisers but Stade Scotchegg awaits!!!
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 13, 2017 8:06:57 GMT
Hang on. You aren't building a new stadium at Water Eaton?
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Post by mooro on Dec 13, 2017 13:21:25 GMT
£13 million at 4% over 25 years on a repayment mortgage is is circa £850,000 per annum on repayments add £1 million for general repairs because it will need them then it is likely repayments are £900,000 per annum plus annual maintenance at say £200,000 so the costs to the club are likely to doubling that is without us even trying to improve and expand the ground or spend money developing the concourses etc. With the greatest respect I have had many conversations with owners, fans etc where people have discussed with me contributing to this and i always get quoted things like the club will cost 4 or 6 million. The ground will be 8 or 10 maybe 13 million and fundamentally there is a huge difference between these figures. When people discuss these number they say 8 or 10 million and even on this thread people say an extra 5 million as if money just grows on trees and its no problem. Trying to persuade someone with the ability to pay 4 million for something worth 2 million or nothing or trying to buy a stadium for 13 million thats worth 8 million may sound like nothing when you write it down on a forum or discuss it on the terraces but when you stop to think it is massive. If you have the ability to do this a few things run through mind like :- 1)to buy it at the quoted £13 million the club is worse off with the hassle of running it and they may run it worse, unlikely but you need to budget for it unless you have lots of friendly cash available post purchase. 2) anyone with 10's of millions won't over pay to the extent it looks you might as it will not sit well, you have to also accept overpaying and someone making money on you which for people who have generally made money by doing good deals is not good for the ego! And no one in life likes overpaying but who really wants to burn 5 million pounds plus for something that is run down and neglected, it needs finishing and also has so many facilities around it that you can't build your own hotels etc etc I am a fan which makes me more likely than most to accept these problems or issues for the greater good of the club but I struggle to justify spending my money that way albeit I am sure I could be persuaded if a deal looks possible. Basically even if it wasn't commercially sensibly I could be persuaded to take a view on some funds but the deal looks so so stupid I can't justify it. However there may be ways to make the deal look more sensible with fans/council involvement and a community feel but for a perspective purchaser or even Darryl i just cannot see how they would justify the numbers. If you want the ground to make a difference and are commercial about it then you have to write off at least £20 to £25 million accepting you will have something worth potentially nothing or £150 million. The logic to that comment is that if you develop the stadium you will never move and therefore it is worth nothing for housing etc etc it just becomes an asset to help the club achieve success as you will never realise the land value and the club will stay there forever. Therefore the ground only becomes of value as an income generator to help the football club be successful. What is the club worth £150 at Premier League level? £20-25 million with stadium at championship level (you can get Some big championship clubs for that - i have been offered them). League One no idea but i wouldn't pay £10 million for OUFC even if it owned the ground in league 1 - it would still lose money if it had a typical promotion budget - i expect someone would though but if the ground comes with debt and high running costs it will be worth very little. So in the short term the club would be worse off if people funded it and required repayment so therefore we need someone with real vision and deep pockets to not be bothered and also spend money on the club. Or people who acquire it, don't develop it and have a plan to move sites and realise the real estate value of the current site whilst acquiring a cheaper site. The one advantage we have over all over the clubs though is internationally the brand of Oxford, if marketed and invested in correctly it will make us one of the most attractive clubs in the world. We need to sell this point and explain we have a fanbase that can attract 30-40k people at Wembley, we are geographically well placed, a one team county, a booming population, a big potential fanbase etc and this can compensate for the spend. That is how i would attract worlwide investment. Why buy Reading, Hull, Wolves, Plymouth, Luton, Coventry, Huddersfield, Cardiff when you can have OXFORD UNITED etc - whilst they are the same size or bigger at the moment they are not globally the same as saying you own oxford to all these far eastern potential fans in India, China, Malaysia etc will fall in love with Oxford and it will be a good asset for you to mention in business dealings around the world - that is how i would massage the ego of a wealthy foreign investor - they could be convinced and i think that is our best chance. Focus on what we have - we have something no other club does - we are OXFORD UNITED don't miss out on owning one of the worlds best potentially untapped sporting brands!!!! - there you go i have convinced myself anyway! Very interesting post, but a chill ran down my spine (and I bet Padz' too) as the name Thomas Anthony Guerrero suddenly came to mind........
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Post by swissyellow on Dec 13, 2017 13:43:22 GMT
Guerrero was along the right sort of lines, trouble is, he was a Walter Mitty lying cheating con artist that beleived his own b*llshit.
Turned out badly for him XD
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