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Post by backonthecoupon on Oct 20, 2017 11:05:49 GMT
Thanks for posting this Myles, I dont care what your motives are if the information is correct then people need to know about it.
Would it be possible for an egregious new owner* to create an asset to strip using the stadium?
*any new owner, not saying Tiger et al are or are not egregious
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 11:29:28 GMT
Totally agree. From my point of view, after realising that nearly all of my questioning of Darryl recently came from info put on here by the same 3 people. And then the same 3 people were also very questioning of the take over before it even happened. I’m a little less likely to believe everything they say without considering both sides, and wondering if it’s just another part of the big game being played out If people trust Darryl and think he has the best interests of the club at heart, then would he sell to people with questionable motives ? Or is it more scaremongering again to try and turn fans towards a different option. I would be worried if some of the people mentioned did become involved, but so far other than tiger, the others mentioned are pure speculation as to them being people he may know or might be interested in backing him. Even his involvement is based purely on being seen at a few games. My point is the opening post is a worst case speculative scenario. Unless of course there is some evidence , of which I was continuously asked for when repeating info from the same people At some stage though you have to accept that some people may know more that what is in the public domain, but are unable to provide evidence of that. I don't, and some will claim they do who do not either, but the continued ask for proof for sensitive information is a futile exercise. I don’t expect any evidence to be produced, clearly a sarcastic remark due to me being asked for it every time I repeated any of the info given out. Quite clearly some people are more itk than others. But I’m also sure sometimes this inside info is released at times and for reasons other than just protecting the best interests of the club.
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Post by shosho on Oct 20, 2017 11:32:29 GMT
🐯
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 11:39:17 GMT
A worrying new development.
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Post by socrates on Oct 20, 2017 14:14:43 GMT
Only a fool would not listen to this warning shot across the bows.
Looks like trouble ahead
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Post by rickyotto on Oct 20, 2017 14:41:32 GMT
Trying to understand the intention of any prospective owner is clearly of paramount importance, irrespective of any previous actions or allegiance. Also, the fact that doubt was cast over DE's takeover does not, in any way, mean that each new prospective owner should not be met with scrutiny first. This. Every single time. The fact that we've had Maxwell, Kassam and Merry should be sufficient that we scrutinize every time. If we get it wrong and have egg on our face then that's fine and good news for the club so we're all happy.
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Post by lambchop on Oct 20, 2017 14:50:03 GMT
It’s all as clear as mud to me....no idea who to believe or who has what to gain from whatever. I’m just going to go stick a few no entry signs up on random stairs and watch the ensuing mayhem.
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Post by scotters on Oct 20, 2017 14:55:47 GMT
I salute Firoz Kassam's tireless efforts to keep OUFC safe from asset-strippers.
Custodian of the club indeed.
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Post by finlandia on Oct 20, 2017 16:16:05 GMT
Scrunity if every new owner is correct- it just has to be consistent for every new owner, irrelevant of any perceived relationships.
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 16:18:37 GMT
Scrunity if every new owner is correct- it just has to be consistent for every new owner, irrelevant of any perceived relationships. So why not the scrutiny of Juan sartori then ? 😉
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Post by finlandia on Oct 20, 2017 16:22:28 GMT
What a great question!
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Post by Paul Cannell on Oct 20, 2017 16:36:19 GMT
Scrunity if every new owner is correct- it just has to be consistent for every new owner, irrelevant of any perceived relationships. So why not the scrutiny of Juan sartori then ? 😉 If I may posit 2 options: Generally there was less scepticism about someone having the interests of the club at heart, Sartori was not a known associate of proven asset strippers. This is not to say this list is exhaustive
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 16:49:39 GMT
So why not the scrutiny of Juan sartori then ? 😉 If I may posit 2 options: Generally there was less scepticism about someone having the interests of the club at heart, Sartori was not a known associate of proven asset strippers. This is not to say this list is exhaustive But how do u know if hes not got associates if u don’t dig into his dealings? That’s my issue, we were told he was a nice guy with the best interests by the CMM news agency (Charles, myles,mark). And get the worse case scenario on tiger from the same source. Exactly the same as the last take over. Back the local bid as this is all the bad stuff that Darryl and mark Ashton has ever done and could do to the club. Beware the crouching tiger , or the hidden dragon 😉
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Post by uptheus on Oct 20, 2017 16:51:44 GMT
With Sumrith “Tiger” Thanakarnjansuth, until recently part-owner of Reading FC, having been seen alongside Darryl Eales at several recent matches, most recently at Bristol Rovers last week, it is reasonable to speculate that he is to become the new controlling shareholder of Oxford United. This was put to DE by the Oxford Mail after they were seen together at the Peterborough game, and Darryl refused to comment. This is odd, because in the past he has been swift to comment, even claiming that he had not received an offer from Sartori when in fact he had. So, let us assume until it is denied that this is happening and is only a matter of time. I’ve spent some time recently trawling through various sets of accounts and contemporary press reports to find out what I can about our potential new owner. “Tiger” at Reading Tiger owns a Thai company which produces clothes for, amongst others, Adidas and New Balance. It seems to turn over about £30 million a year and makes a profit of maybe £2-£3 million. Not a bad business, not by any stretch, but not even the size of Ian Lenagan or Robin Herd’s old businesses. He bought 25% of Reading FC in 2014, alongside two other Thais. There was meant to be a fourth senior partner, Samrit – whose nickname is “Mr BIG” - but just before the deal was done he disappeared from being a named party, with his 25% being taken up by one of the remaining three. There was suggestion that Mr BIG had (or would have) failed the EFL Fit and Proper Persons Test. The deal was arranged by two men called Pairoj Piempongsant and Taweesuk “Jack” Srisumrid, who subsequently became directors. Now, those two gentlemen are very interesting, because they were (or are) the chiefs of staff to fugitive former Thai PM Thaksin Shinawatra. The whole Shinawatra clan is under constant investigation. Indeed, earlier this week Thaksin’s son was arrested on money-laundering charges. Pairoj is so close to Thaksin – and Thaksin is so toxic – that when there was a potential takeover of Portsmouth FC a few years back, the Premier League specifically said that neither Thaksin nor Pairoj could have anything to do with it. The Thais bought Reading by agreeing to pay off the £15 million of loans that the previous Russian owner had run up with an aggressive moneylender called VIBRAC. Madejski was told by VIBRAC that if either he or someone else did not re-pay the loan and interest they (VIBRAC) would take-over the whole club. So into the breach stepped Pairoj, who had noticed (ring a bell anywhere?) that the club’s assets out-stripped its debts. First, he tried to get “Mr BIG” to do it, and when that failed (see above) he came up with a group of businessmen, of which Tiger was one. To cut a long story short (for the moment), over the following two years the Thai group asset-stripped the development land surrounding the stadium (Royal Elm Park) – you can see the Reading Supporters Trust reaction to that on this link documents.reading.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00347097.pdf (particularly paragraphs 6-8) - whilst also using those assets, plus the stadium and training ground a £15million loan from an American investment firm. In the meantime, they complained that the ongoing losses of circa £5 million a year were far higher than they had thought. Meanwhile, Reading FC had to pay interest (effectively rent) of £1 million plus on the stadium it had previously owned, management charges to Pairoj of £1.5 million (see below) and further fees of £1.5 million for the “arrangement of finance” for all these shenanigans. Once the development land had been asset-stripped and planning permission granted, the Thai group wanted out, and sold to a Chinese bidder who had, just previously, been turned down by the Premier League’s Fit and Proper Persons Test. Tiger and co were left with a small ongoing stake, and a commitment to pay a small portion of the ongoing costs. So, in conclusion, it was a very strange two year ownership. The Thais took over an indebted, loss-making Championship club. They asset-stripped it and barely spent a penny of their own money that I can find in the accounts, paid out a fortune in management fees to their fixers (see below) and then – having got the planning land off the books – complained that £5 million a year to have a top 6 budget and therefore a chance of promotion to the Premier League was much more than the three of them could afford (£1.5 million a year each) and sold up, at a profit. Pairoj Piempongsant and Taweesuk “Jack” Srisumrid When Shinawatra owned Manchester City, his two chiefs of staff – Pairoj and Jack – were on the Board with Shinawatra’s son (the one arrested this week on money laundering charges). And when Thaksin suddenly had to sell – having been accused of corruption/ money laundering – it was Pairoj who arranged the sale to the Abu Dhabi people. He was rumoured to be assisting in the purchase of Portsmouth by a weird and wonderful UAE con man called Sulaiman Al-Fahim a year or two later, but – interestingly – this report caused such alarm at Premier League level that Sir Dave Richards was wheeled out to say that no deal could be done if Thaksin or Pairoj was involved, given the former’s status as a fugitive money launderer and the latter’s status as his chief henchman. It was a sort of pre-emptive failing of the Fit and Proper Person’s Test. Unsurprisingly, since then Pairoj has kept his head down with regards to the Premier League, but has instead been getting himself involved in the EFL, where such tests are weaker. In the meantime, Pairoj and Jack set up a complex web of companies under the “Empire” banner. Based out of Singapore, then linked to the British Virgin Islands, and on to the offices of Panama Papers law firm Mossack Fonseca (both Empire Asia and Pairoj on a personal basis appear in the Panama Papers). In 2016, the Thai government announced that it was launching a money-laundering investigation into the 16 Thai nationals whose names appeared in the Panama Papers (those names included both Pairoj and Thaksin’s wife, Potjaman). The duo’s multi-million pound fees for both setting up the Reading deal and then for helping “manage” the club were paid out to Empire Asia (website of which was recently closed down, but you can still see the cached weblinks), whilst another company, Empire Global, received the stripped Reading property assets. Meanwhile, someone who met Pairoj at this time was presented with a business card that simply stated “Owner of Reading FC”. Whilst the owners of Reading FC were often absent, Pairoj and “Jack” were the real movers and shakers in the Reading boardroom, extracting huge fees in the process, not to mention the property assets. Meanwhile, Pairoj had introduced Reading to an exciting new shirt sponsor, albeit at the rather less-than-exciting sum of £150k a year (about what LionTrust pays OUFC): Thai-based energy drink Carabao. Carabao and Intercarabao The former is a successful energy drinks business in the Far East, turning over around £280 million a year. The latter, by contrast, is a small business (based out of an accountancy firm in Reading) that has gained the exclusive rights to promote Carabao in the UK. So, it is the separate, foreign-based distributor of a medium-sized drinks brand. In the last year of accounts, its turnover was a measly £600,000 or so, whilst incurring “administrative expenses” of over £14m. That tiny company has decided to “invest” vast marketing budgets, mostly on sports sponsorship deals, e.g. £30m over three years on Chelsea, £18m over 3 years on the EFL Cup. Where this money is coming from is not clear – though the holding company (in Luxembourg) has had to make a statement effectively saying that Carabao (the drinks brand) will contribute to financing if required to enable it to trade as a going concern. Leaving aside Intercarabao’s own measly turnover, its marketing spend is something like 25% of the turnover of Carabao itself; a quite extraordinary sum. Pairoj is the “president” of Intercarabao, and Empire Asia (the company he and Jack share) is its founding entity, through an agreement with master company Carabao. Concluding questions What is clear is that the web of different interests and companies at Reading was unbelievably complex. Indeed, so complex that the local newspaper wrote a forceful column urging more transparency (http://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/opinion-reading-fc-fans-deserve-8165421). The machinations were so intricate that the fans did not even know that their stadium had been used as collateral for that extra £15m loan (which, oddly, is not transparently in the club's accounts). To be fair though, the Reading Supporters Trust were at least on top of the rest of the asset-stripping. “Tiger” – with his small to medium sized tailoring business - is clearly not a major player. He is just the latest obscure Thai businessman to be placed into UK football by Pairoj et al. Nor is it clear that he was in charge in any meaningful way (though reports I have heard of him bursting into the manager’s office to tell him what to do, and running up and down the touchline at the training ground, are worrying, if true). But in business terms, Pairoj and Jack were clearly pulling the strings. So if Tiger does pitch up at OUFC, who will be standing behind him? And why would someone who could barely put a penny into Reading FC be in a position to fund us to take us to the next level? After all, his share of the £5 million a year that it was costing to make Reading competitive in the Championship was no more than what DE and IL have been putting into OUFC for the last ten years. If we WERE to go up to the Championship then the necessity for an owner to contribute would escalate massively (as DE has himself stated). So why find as a new owner someone who could not stand that burden at a club with a much better set-up (25,000 seater stadium and Cat 1 academy) and assets to strip to help fund it? It is hard not to note, too, that – I’m sure entirely by honest mistake – these people have been in close business proximity to money-launderers. From Shinawatra himself, to his son, to Tiger’s co-bidder at Reading Mr BIG, to the Panama Papers. And let’s not even get onto Intercarabao! And to think that Satori wasn't good for the club!
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Post by scotters on Oct 20, 2017 16:54:59 GMT
I wonder if this guy has considered taking on representation to protect his reputation on here?
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Post by charliesghost on Oct 20, 2017 17:20:12 GMT
Presumably because you and oufcyellows are too thick or too lazy to bother. Nothing and nobody is stopping anyone doing an exhaustive study on Juan Sartori. And it should be a fair bit easier than Myles' efforts, as Sartori's business interests are listed on wiki and first two pages of Google search, and several of them are publicly quoted, which means you can investigate them very thoroughly, relatively easily. He also made himself available to your fans representative group to answer questions. I was there, and Jem (quite rightly) asked him about the quantity of his funding, whether he would accept fan representation on the board and where his plans were on the stadium front. All good, responsible stuff. And the kind of thing that should be discussed BEFORE a takeover.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Oct 20, 2017 17:23:01 GMT
That's our fans' representative group but essentially the point is valid.
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 17:23:23 GMT
Arhhh the old thicko insult again, the old Etonian insults are a particular favourite of mine, as they don’t quite require a ban
Obviously u have arranged the same meeting with tiger to ask the same questions before making some very serious statements against him then ?
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Post by Pete Burrett on Oct 20, 2017 17:46:54 GMT
I was there, and Jem (quite rightly) asked him about the quantity of his funding, whether he would accept fan representation on the board and where his plans were on the stadium front. All good, responsible stuff. And the kind of thing that should be discussed BEFORE a takeover. Oh, I think we can all agree (well, most of us anyway) that OxVox can be trusted to behave responsibly, including not making any rash statements before the full facts of any event affecting OUFC are known.
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Post by Mark on Oct 20, 2017 18:31:08 GMT
That's our fans' representative group but essentially the point is valid. Was this the game with various parties meeting in an exec box or sitting nearby when Eales just happened to be out of the country?
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Post by myles on Oct 20, 2017 19:10:32 GMT
Scrunity if every new owner is correct- it just has to be consistent for every new owner, irrelevant of any perceived relationships. So why not the scrutiny of Juan sartori then ? 😉 Believe it or not, I did carry out similar research into Sartori. And guess what? There was no evidence of morally questionable dealings or association with convicted money launderers. If you have evidence or information to the contrary, I'll gladly listen to it. However, the Sartori deal appears to be dead in the water, so has little relevance now. There are others on this thread who are questioning my findings, including one claiming I am presenting things as fact which aren't true. Again, if they have evidence to refute what I have said, I'm all ears. I'd also underline the comments made by others on here, including Pete Burrett, who have recognised that asset stripping isn't the issue here. The source of any monies being invested in the club is a bigger question.
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 19:14:52 GMT
I’ve not once questioned ur findings myles, I don’t doubt any of it . Only the reason for doing so. Correct me if I’m wrong but other than tiger, the people mentioned in ur post are only previous associates, or do u have info that they would actually be involved ?
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Post by Paul Cannell on Oct 20, 2017 19:37:07 GMT
That's our fans' representative group but essentially the point is valid. Was this the game with various parties meeting in an exec box or sitting nearby when Eales just happened to be out of the country? Choo on about, son? I was echoing Mr Methven's "He also made himself available to [sic] your [sic] fans representative group to answer questions. I was there, and Jem (quite rightly) asked him about the quantity of his funding, whether he would accept fan representation on the board and where his plans were on the stadium front. All good, responsible stuff. And the kind of thing that should be discussed BEFORE a takeover." The report of which I vaguely recall. If you have something to day to me, do say it.
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Post by myles on Oct 20, 2017 19:55:45 GMT
I’ve not once questioned ur findings myles, I don’t doubt any of it . Only the reason for doing so. So, you don't doubt any of what I've reported about Tiger being closely associated with convicted money launderers, or that he MAY be taking over our club, yet still question the reason for doing so? Odd.
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 19:59:14 GMT
I’ve not once questioned ur findings myles, I don’t doubt any of it . Only the reason for doing so. So, you don't doubt any of what I've reported about Tiger being closely associated with convicted money launderers, or that he MAY be taking over our club, yet still question the reason for doing so? Odd. Not odd. That took u a long time to reply, yet u didn’t answer the question. Do u have proof that any of these convicted money laundering associates will be involved? Yes or no will do. I’m sure lots of people have some dodgy connections in their life. I seem to remember mark Ashton’s Past dealings in football brought up quite a lot. If yes then that’s very interesting and I’ll be interested to hear what Oxvox think on the issue. If no, then as I’ve said it’s a worse case scenario, that might be miles from fact. With the money man behind him actually being as clean as Juan I like that tiger now “MAY” be taking over. Do u agree that the dodgy people mentioned “MAY” not even be involved
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Post by myles on Oct 20, 2017 20:04:38 GMT
If no, then as I’ve said it’s a worse case scenario, that might be miles from fact. With the money man behind him actually being as clean as Juan So you accept that there is a money man behind him? In which case, who is he?
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 20:05:51 GMT
If no, then as I’ve said it’s a worse case scenario, that might be miles from fact. With the money man behind him actually being as clean as Juan So you accept that there is a money man behind him? In which case, who is he? You tell me , you’ve done all the ground work. Again avoided the question. Do u know that the people u mentioned are involved ? Yes or no
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Post by myles on Oct 20, 2017 20:10:54 GMT
So you accept that there is a money man behind him? In which case, who is he? You tell me , you’ve done all the ground work. Again avoided the question. Do u know that the people u mentioned are involved ? Yes or no Tell you what, just to humour you, I'll say no- I can't prove that the people mentioned are behind Tiger. Now you go ahead and believe everything is tickety-boo. Meanwhile, the grown ups who have experienced the real world can drawn their own conclusions.
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Post by oufcyellows on Oct 20, 2017 20:14:31 GMT
And there u have it. I’ve never questioned ur findings myles, I do like debating with u and ur normal Sensible approach to things without turning to personal insults like some. All I’ve said from the start is that this is a worse case assumption. Which unsurprisingly will get people who care about the club worked up and panicking. (Been there done that on previous thoughts) Yet there is as much evidence that none of them will be involved as there is they all have an evil master plan for us. I don’t believe everything is tickety boo, but I do like to wait for more fact before forming my opinions these days, rather than just believing everything I’m told on here or in pm
I do apologise for ruining the thread though, so I’ll shut up and let everyone carry on panicking . I’ll gladly come and join you when we see it might actually happen
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Post by Denissmithswig on Oct 20, 2017 20:33:14 GMT
You tell me , you’ve done all the ground work. Again avoided the question. Do u know that the people u mentioned are involved ? Yes or no Tell you what, just to humour you, I'll say no- I can't prove that the people mentioned are behind Tiger. Now you go ahead and believe everything is tickety-boo. Meanwhile, the grown ups who have experienced the real world can drawn their own conclusions. Dropping down to Charlie’s level and belittling others, classy myles. You still haven’t answered the question of why you are posting this now considering it had all gone quiet on here about Tiger?
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