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Post by essexyellows on Sept 27, 2017 14:28:38 GMT
The Bombardier deal was seemingly "supported by the State" and sold into the US against their terms....that is how agreements/contracts work, break them you get caned.It happened while one party was within the EU don`t forget, and Canada could still pursue a case against the US at the World Trade Organisation so its not "done & dusted" by a long shot!
That aside....I very much doubt anyone on here is elderly enough to remember what we voted to join.... the EEC,European Economic Community, that was formed under the Treaty of Rome 1957....then in 92/93 the "EU" was "formed"...driven by Germany (not a good history with them) and the Beni-Lux countries who fancied the "benefits".
It was at that point we should have voted, however the can was kicked down the road, everything was rosy and nobody fussed much...and then the monster started to grow and wanted feeding....start adding countries...make one size fit all..... nobody leaves "the club".
If you leave a club/organisation etc you don`t pay subs, you settle any tab you may have then go.
That is how simple it should be. If it gets to 2019 with no agreement then toodle pip, cheerio. Turn the focus on setting up our own agreements with the Rest of the World PLC.
*I`m not on the negotiating team.
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Post by whingit on Sept 27, 2017 15:12:40 GMT
I'd like to see the government tell us what EU organisations we are going to remain in. For example, I'd like to think that we will stay a part of the ESA and still pay into it. Surely even the leavers wouldn't object to that?
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Post by m on Sept 27, 2017 15:17:18 GMT
I'd like to see the government tell us what EU organisations we are going to remain in. For example, I'd like to think that we will stay a part of the ESA and still pay into it. Surely even the leavers wouldn't object to that? ESA is entirely separate from the EU. Norway and Switzerland are members and Canada also sit on the council. (despite not being a member state)
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 27, 2017 15:53:25 GMT
I'd like to see the government tell us what EU organisations we are going to remain in. For example, I'd like to think that we will stay a part of the ESA and still pay into it. Surely even the leavers wouldn't object to that? ESA is entirely separate from the EU. Norway and Switzerland are members and Canada also sit on the council. (despite not being a member state) Exactly this, by all means retain mutually beneficial memberships of these organisations where our technical skills are right at the cutting edge and where other countries are allowed in.... but lose the shackles of the "EU Club" where some of the players at the table haven`t got the stake money so we lend it to them to fritter away.
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Post by flean on Sept 27, 2017 18:02:41 GMT
The Bombardier deal was seemingly "supported by the State" and sold into the US against their terms....that is how agreements/contracts work, break them you get caned.It happened while one party was within the EU don`t forget, and Canada could still pursue a case against the US at the World Trade Organisation so its not "done & dusted" by a long shot! That aside....I very much doubt anyone on here is elderly enough to remember what we voted to join.... the EEC,European Economic Community, that was formed under the Treaty of Rome 1957....then in 92/93 the "EU" was "formed"...driven by Germany (not a good history with them) and the Beni-Lux countries who fancied the "benefits". It was at that point we should have voted, however the can was kicked down the road, everything was rosy and nobody fussed much...and then the monster started to grow and wanted feeding....start adding countries...make one size fit all..... nobody leaves "the club". If you leave a club/organisation etc you don`t pay subs, you settle any tab you may have then go. That is how simple it should be. If it gets to 2019 with no agreement then toodle pip, cheerio. Turn the focus on setting up our own agreements with the Rest of the World PLC. *I`m not on the negotiating team. Thank God you're not on the negotiating team You're old enough to remember joining the EEC I presume? Well, young people now only know about freedom of movement, Erasmus etc (all things they will miss out on as the elderly voted to take them out - yep, they should've bothered to vote.)
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 27, 2017 18:24:57 GMT
The Bombardier deal was seemingly "supported by the State" and sold into the US against their terms....that is how agreements/contracts work, break them you get caned.It happened while one party was within the EU don`t forget, and Canada could still pursue a case against the US at the World Trade Organisation so its not "done & dusted" by a long shot! That aside....I very much doubt anyone on here is elderly enough to remember what we voted to join.... the EEC,European Economic Community, that was formed under the Treaty of Rome 1957....then in 92/93 the "EU" was "formed"...driven by Germany (not a good history with them) and the Beni-Lux countries who fancied the "benefits". It was at that point we should have voted, however the can was kicked down the road, everything was rosy and nobody fussed much...and then the monster started to grow and wanted feeding....start adding countries...make one size fit all..... nobody leaves "the club". If you leave a club/organisation etc you don`t pay subs, you settle any tab you may have then go. That is how simple it should be. If it gets to 2019 with no agreement then toodle pip, cheerio. Turn the focus on setting up our own agreements with the Rest of the World PLC. *I`m not on the negotiating team. Thank God you're not on the negotiating team You're old enough to remember joining the EEC I presume? Well, young people now only know about freedom of movement, Erasmus etc (all things they will miss out on as the elderly voted to take them out - yep, they should've bothered to vote.) Ahhh yes....Erasmus....spreading the false belief that everyone should go to "Uni" (even if the Uni used to be a Poly!!). Freedom of movement...whats so wrong about filling in a visa form, or a holiday visa on a plane done it plenty of times myself in various countries.....blimey we could even make sure folk go home! I`m not "elderly" just old enough & wise enough to know when we are collectively getting shafted to fund pseudo-third world countries.
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Post by tonyw on Sept 27, 2017 18:59:02 GMT
Ahhh yes....Erasmus....spreading the false belief that everyone should go to "Uni" (even if the Uni used to be a Poly!!). Freedom of movement... whats so wrong about filling in a visa form, or a holiday visa on a plane done it plenty of times myself in various countries.....blimey we could even make sure folk go home! I`m not "elderly" just old enough & wise enough to know when we are collectively getting shafted to fund pseudo-third world countries. Clearly you've never tried to get a visa to live and work for more than a few months in another non-EU country. It ain't the same as a travel or holiday visa, that's for sure.
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Post by flean on Sept 27, 2017 19:46:25 GMT
Thank God you're not on the negotiating team You're old enough to remember joining the EEC I presume? Well, young people now only know about freedom of movement, Erasmus etc (all things they will miss out on as the elderly voted to take them out - yep, they should've bothered to vote.) Ahhh yes....Erasmus....spreading the false belief that everyone should go to "Uni" (even if the Uni used to be a Poly!!). Freedom of movement...whats so wrong about filling in a visa form, or a holiday visa on a plane done it plenty of times myself in various countries.....blimey we could even make sure folk go home! I`m not "elderly" just old enough & wise enough to know when we are collectively getting shafted to fund pseudo-third world countries. Not sure what your problem with Erasmus is, but it seems you've never studied or lived overseas by your bitterness towards those that want to do either of those things.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 28, 2017 7:41:44 GMT
The Bombardier deal was seemingly "supported by the State" and sold into the US against their terms....that is how agreements/contracts work, break them you get caned.It happened while one party was within the EU don`t forget, and Canada could still pursue a case against the US at the World Trade Organisation so its not "done & dusted" by a long shot! Airbus is obviously state-supported so why haven't Boeing gone after them? Perhaps knowing that tariffs on Airbus products would result in retaliation which would really hurt them... Smaller countries such as Canada and UK don't really have the same clout compared to the EU, do they? Also interesting that Boeing themselves have been supported handsomely by the US state www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aerospace/2015-03-23/us-generous-boeing-loan-guarantees-subsidies . So it seems all sides are guilty of breaking agreements? Yanks have very good lawyers mind. At least we have Dr Liam Fox to ensure that we don't get stitched up...
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 28, 2017 8:20:27 GMT
Ahhh yes....Erasmus....spreading the false belief that everyone should go to "Uni" (even if the Uni used to be a Poly!!). Freedom of movement... whats so wrong about filling in a visa form, or a holiday visa on a plane done it plenty of times myself in various countries.....blimey we could even make sure folk go home! I`m not "elderly" just old enough & wise enough to know when we are collectively getting shafted to fund pseudo-third world countries. Clearly you've never tried to get a visa to live and work for more than a few months in another non-EU country. It ain't the same as a travel or holiday visa, that's for sure. Correct, however I see no reason that getting a visa shouldn`t be a robust process. Recently went to Boston (US not Lincs) and the process is clearly spelled out, the border protection is robust. No problem with that at all. Open borders make it easier for criminals, undesirables etc to travel...... so controlling them isn`t a bad thing.
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 28, 2017 8:26:27 GMT
Ahhh yes....Erasmus....spreading the false belief that everyone should go to "Uni" (even if the Uni used to be a Poly!!). Freedom of movement...whats so wrong about filling in a visa form, or a holiday visa on a plane done it plenty of times myself in various countries.....blimey we could even make sure folk go home! I`m not "elderly" just old enough & wise enough to know when we are collectively getting shafted to fund pseudo-third world countries. Not sure what your problem with Erasmus is, but it seems you've never studied or lived overseas by your bitterness towards those that want to do either of those things. I have studied thanks....... in the UK with a self funded DL Degree....at a proper University not an upgraded Poly. That aside there is nothing wrong with regulating those who wish to travel/study etc.Nobody has said they can`t its just the control system maybe more robust. It might cause some decimation to all the back street "language schools" that are a result of such flexibility which wouldn`t be a bad thing.
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Post by tonyw on Sept 28, 2017 17:16:18 GMT
Correct, however I see no reason that getting a visa shouldn`t be a robust process. Recently went to Boston (US not Lincs) and the process is clearly spelled out, the border protection is robust. No problem with that at all. Open borders make it easier for criminals, undesirables etc to travel...... so controlling them isn`t a bad thing. OK, but I think that's slightly missing the point we were trying to get at. With full border controls, if you want to go visit another country then you follow the immigration process, and for most countries it's relatively straightforward and rapid. Most countries want tourists. It's a very different situation if you want to live and work for an extended period of time (i.e. more than a few months) in another country. If you take the US an example - like you have - then there's no mechanism for getting a Green Card (residency) as a UK citizen without either a) Marrying an American or b) Getting a job in the US. And if you're trying to get a job with a US employer without a green card then basically you have to be transferred from elsewhere, or they have to prove to the USCIS that they couldn't hire an American with the same skill set as you to do the job. It's a very high bar indeed. Perfectly reasonable, you'll probably say - you shouldn't be able to go and live in another country just because you want to. The thing is, though, Brits have had the freedom to go and live in any one of 27 other countries for a long time now. For young people, it's all they've ever known. So when you take that freedom away - as is going to happen if and when Brexit ever actually gets implemented - then it's not unreasonable for some people to be upset about the additional restrictions on their choices they're going to face. When you close a door, it shuts in both directions.
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 28, 2017 18:34:38 GMT
Correct, however I see no reason that getting a visa shouldn`t be a robust process. Recently went to Boston (US not Lincs) and the process is clearly spelled out, the border protection is robust. No problem with that at all. Open borders make it easier for criminals, undesirables etc to travel...... so controlling them isn`t a bad thing. OK, but I think that's slightly missing the point we were trying to get at. With full border controls, if you want to go visit another country then you follow the immigration process, and for most countries it's relatively straightforward and rapid. Most countries want tourists. It's a very different situation if you want to live and work for an extended period of time (i.e. more than a few months) in another country. If you take the US an example - like you have - then there's no mechanism for getting a Green Card (residency) as a UK citizen without either a) Marrying an American or b) Getting a job in the US. And if you're trying to get a job with a US employer without a green card then basically you have to be transferred from elsewhere, or they have to prove to the USCIS that they couldn't hire an American with the same skill set as you to do the job. It's a very high bar indeed. Perfectly reasonable, you'll probably say - you shouldn't be able to go and live in another country just because you want to. The thing is, though, Brits have had the freedom to go and live in any one of 27 other countries for a long time now. For young people, it's all they've ever known. So when you take that freedom away - as is going to happen if and when Brexit ever actually gets implemented - then it's not unreasonable for some people to be upset about the additional restrictions on their choices they're going to face. When you close a door, it shuts in both directions. People maybe upset about the "additional restrictions on their choices" however that is because a democratic exercise took place and the majority chose to leave. If the restrictions, like America, create a situation where you can only enter if you are skilled worker or beneficial in another way it isn`t a bad thing. We need to both attract talent and train our own. What we don`t want/need is unskilled labour being attracted by very poorly paid jobs that end up being a nett cost to the system. Would I rather an Eastern European came to the UK, lived in a cramped caravan and earnt £5 an hour picking veg....or that local un-employed folk were made to earn their handouts? Take a guess.....
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Post by tonyw on Sept 28, 2017 21:53:21 GMT
People maybe upset about the "additional restrictions on their choices" however that is because a democratic exercise took place and the majority chose to leave. Absolutely - the majority (who don't want EU immigrants coming into the country) screwed the minority (who might want to live and work in an EU country someday). But apparently the minority is not allowed to complain about it; they're supposed to sit down and shut up because a democratic exercise took place. Hell, if I was a 21 year old with a bit of skill and talent and an adventurous streak, I'd be absolutely livid that I was no longer going to have the same freedoms that my parents' generation enjoyed.
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Post by flean on Sept 28, 2017 22:14:30 GMT
People maybe upset about the "additional restrictions on their choices" however that is because a democratic exercise took place and the majority chose to leave. Absolutely - the majority (who don't want EU immigrants coming into the country) screwed the minority (who might want to live and work in an EU country someday). But apparently the minority is not allowed to complain about it; they're supposed to sit down and shut up because a democratic exercise took place. Hell, if I was a 21 year old with a bit of skill and talent and an adventurous streak, I'd be absolutely livid that I was no longer going to have the same freedoms that my parents' generation enjoyed. But it's OK.. If you don't get into a 'real' university (not one of those jumped up polys) you can go pick the fruit instead of the Eastern Europeans.
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Post by pooshooter on Sept 29, 2017 10:17:26 GMT
People maybe upset about the "additional restrictions on their choices" however that is because a democratic exercise took place and the majority chose to leave. Absolutely - the majority (who don't want EU immigrants coming into the country) screwed the minority (who might want to live and work in an EU country someday). But apparently the minority is not allowed to complain about it; they're supposed to sit down and shut up because a democratic exercise took place. Hell, if I was a 21 year old with a bit of skill and talent and an adventurous streak, I'd be absolutely livid that I was no longer going to have the same freedoms that my parents' generation enjoyed. But you're not?
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Post by essexyellows on Oct 1, 2017 11:49:10 GMT
People maybe upset about the "additional restrictions on their choices" however that is because a democratic exercise took place and the majority chose to leave. Absolutely - the majority (who don't want EU immigrants coming into the country) screwed the minority (who might want to live and work in an EU country someday). But apparently the minority is not allowed to complain about it; they're supposed to sit down and shut up because a democratic exercise took place. Hell, if I was a 21 year old with a bit of skill and talent and an adventurous streak, I'd be absolutely livid that I was no longer going to have the same freedoms that my parents' generation enjoyed. Who says you won`t have those choices? It may not be as "free & easy" as it was....but nobody has said you (or the 21 year old adventurous person) can`t travel & work. As for "jumped up polys" ...... why the culture change that everyone "has to go to Uni" and study some sort of "soft" degree rather than going out & getting a job? As an employer it is very easy to see those who think they should get a job & salary far above their skill set, because they have spent several years at Uni being told how good they are! Irrespective of how pointless the degree is. I mean Edinburgh Uni offers a degree in Parapsychology......... www.ed.ac.uk/ppls/psychology/prospective/postgraduate/research-programmes/parapsychologyWho you gonna call ??
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Post by rickyotto on Oct 1, 2017 12:00:39 GMT
The Bombardier deal was seemingly "supported by the State" and sold into the US against their terms....that is how agreements/contracts work, break them you get caned.It happened while one party was within the EU don`t forget, and Canada could still pursue a case against the US at the World Trade Organisation so its not "done & dusted" by a long shot! That aside....I very much doubt anyone on here is elderly enough to remember what we voted to join.... the EEC,European Economic Community, that was formed under the Treaty of Rome 1957....then in 92/93 the "EU" was "formed"...driven by Germany (not a good history with them) and the Beni-Lux countries who fancied the "benefits". It was at that point we should have voted, however the can was kicked down the road, everything was rosy and nobody fussed much...and then the monster started to grow and wanted feeding....start adding countries...make one size fit all..... nobody leaves "the club". If you leave a club/organisation etc you don`t pay subs, you settle any tab you may have then go. That is how simple it should be. If it gets to 2019 with no agreement then toodle pip, cheerio. Turn the focus on setting up our own agreements with the Rest of the World PLC. *I`m not on the negotiating team. Thank God you're not on the negotiating team You're old enough to remember joining the EEC I presume? Well, young people now only know about freedom of movement, Erasmus etc (all things they will miss out on as the elderly voted to take them out - yep, they should've bothered to vote.) Implying that freedom of movement is always a good thing and has no draw backs? Because in a land of opportunity you're really talking about middle class opportunity to go swan around Europe. Not the working class having their wages suppressed and cost of living driven up.
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Post by ag on Oct 1, 2017 14:21:40 GMT
Nonsense-there are plenty of people of all backgrounds living all over the EU.
People also benefit from visa free holidays .
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Post by flean on Oct 1, 2017 18:24:57 GMT
Thank God you're not on the negotiating team You're old enough to remember joining the EEC I presume? Well, young people now only know about freedom of movement, Erasmus etc (all things they will miss out on as the elderly voted to take them out - yep, they should've bothered to vote.) Implying that freedom of movement is always a good thing and has no draw backs? Because in a land of opportunity you're really talking about middle class opportunity to go swan around Europe. Not the working class having their wages suppressed and cost of living driven up. Says the middle class man swanning around America.
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Post by rickyotto on Oct 3, 2017 2:49:32 GMT
Implying that freedom of movement is always a good thing and has no draw backs? Because in a land of opportunity you're really talking about middle class opportunity to go swan around Europe. Not the working class having their wages suppressed and cost of living driven up. Says the middle class man swanning around America. I think it's very sad people personalize debates on here. Might be worthy reflecting on whether that was necessary or whether it strengthened the quality of your debate. Also not entirely sure of the point you were trying to make except to make an unpleasant snipe.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Oct 3, 2017 3:46:11 GMT
Implying that freedom of movement is always a good thing and has no draw backs? Because in a land of opportunity you're really talking about middle class opportunity to go swan around Europe. Not the working class having their wages suppressed and cost of living driven up. Says the middle class man swanning around America. Low sniping. Poor, poor show. Ricki feels he must be allowed to be whatever he is pretending to be at the time of posting. So please fall in.
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Post by flean on Oct 3, 2017 6:08:42 GMT
Says the middle class man swanning around America. I think it's very sad people personalize debates on here. Might be worthy reflecting on whether that was necessary or whether it strengthened the quality of your debate. Also not entirely sure of the point you were trying to make except to make an unpleasant snipe. Oh OK, my apologies. Let me rephrase it. I've heard of people who have taken advantage of moving to other countries to live and work saying that it's not a good thing. Strikes me as utter hypocrisy. Can't name anyone I'm afraid, but believe me, these people exist. Better?
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Post by Paul Cannell on Oct 3, 2017 8:31:59 GMT
Much. Thanks.
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Post by flean on Oct 6, 2017 21:36:59 GMT
The Bombardier deal was seemingly "supported by the State" and sold into the US against their terms....that is how agreements/contracts work, break them you get caned.It happened while one party was within the EU don`t forget, and Canada could still pursue a case against the US at the World Trade Organisation so its not "done & dusted" by a long shot! That aside....I very much doubt anyone on here is elderly enough to remember what we voted to join.... the EEC,European Economic Community, that was formed under the Treaty of Rome 1957....then in 92/93 the "EU" was "formed"...driven by Germany (not a good history with them) and the Beni-Lux countries who fancied the "benefits". It was at that point we should have voted, however the can was kicked down the road, everything was rosy and nobody fussed much...and then the monster started to grow and wanted feeding....start adding countries...make one size fit all..... nobody leaves "the club". If you leave a club/organisation etc you don`t pay subs, you settle any tab you may have then go. That is how simple it should be. If it gets to 2019 with no agreement then toodle pip, cheerio. Turn the focus on setting up our own agreements with the Rest of the World PLC. *I`m not on the negotiating team.[/quotes] Is this what you meant by its not done and dusted? Further tariff of 80% imposed on import of C-Series - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41532309
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Post by flean on Oct 10, 2017 8:48:34 GMT
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Post by foley on Oct 10, 2017 10:15:19 GMT
People maybe upset about the "additional restrictions on their choices" however that is because a democratic exercise took place and the majority chose to leave. Absolutely - the majority (who don't want EU immigrants coming into the country) screwed the minority (who might want to live and work in an EU country someday).
But apparently the minority is not allowed to complain about it; they're supposed to sit down and shut up because a democratic exercise took place. Hell, if I was a 21 year old with a bit of skill and talent and an adventurous streak, I'd be absolutely livid that I was no longer going to have the same freedoms that my parents' generation enjoyed. Come on Tony. I would imagine that many of 'the majority who don't want EU immigrants coming into this country' are more than happy having skilled labour coming into the Country as and when it is required. In addition I am not sure that 'the minority' voted because might want to live and work in an EU country one day. I am just a little surprised how everything seems so black and white on here.....
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Post by foley on Oct 10, 2017 10:22:16 GMT
The 'vote' seems to show in a very small sample the numbers are similar to the original vote (not that it means anything)
FWIW, my view is that the attitude of Mr Barnier and the EU since the triggering of Article 50 is enough to show why some people would want to not be in 'the club'.
Both sides in the referendum claimed things that were clearly wrong. I am suspecting that if the UK do leave the EU then there will be winners and losers. I imagine that trade with the rest of the World will increase and that trade with the EU will depend a little on how much the EU want to 'punish' the UK (which based on the current comments appears to be quite a lot..)
Without doubt May has screwed it up though in so far as the 'strong and stable' government which probably would have been an advantage in the negotiations with the EU has absolutely disappeared.
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Post by flean on Oct 10, 2017 10:46:16 GMT
The 'vote' seems to show in a very small sample the numbers are similar to the original vote (not that it means anything) FWIW, my view is that the attitude of Mr Barnier and the EU since the triggering of Article 50 is enough to show why some people would want to not be in 'the club'. Both sides in the referendum claimed things that were clearly wrong. I am suspecting that if the UK do leave the EU then there will be winners and losers. I imagine that trade with the rest of the World will increase and that trade with the EU will depend a little on how much the EU want to 'punish' the UK (which based on the current comments appears to be quite a lot..) Without doubt May has screwed it up though in so far as the 'strong and stable' government which probably would have been an advantage in the negotiations with the EU has absolutely disappeared. Do you mean the EU's attitude from the start (no trade discussions until residents rights / NI border is at a suitable level)? Some people see this as a punishment.. I see it as sticking to principles.
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Post by whingit on Oct 10, 2017 10:50:29 GMT
I find it funny that people resent the EU for being better at negotiating. How dare they look after their own interests.
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