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Post by ZeroTheHero on Dec 12, 2016 13:38:51 GMT
Men against boys. We have little or no idea how to bat on spinning pitches, and our bowlers are almost as inept - especially when trying to finish off an innings. Bad team selection, sure - but do we have the quality anywhere to compete? We did OK in the first test of the series and have been going steadily downhill ever since.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 12, 2016 13:59:20 GMT
The lack of plans against the spinners was most concerning. The selection of Ballance was mystifying in the summer and was equally as bad now. Little boy lost.
On reflection, Bairstow and Stokes both have played really well. Same for Rashid. Moeen was ok but Moeen in his ability to get himself out playing a stupid shot. Cook and Root were ok. The batting order has been a bodge job and the regular collapses have shown Root needs to be at 4 and the upper order needs to be set with more balance that a load of stroke makers.
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 12, 2016 16:51:53 GMT
Another poor defeat. Playing 4 seamers on a spinning wicket that offers little to pace bowlers rather highlights the muddled thinking in the team. Not a lot of progress has been made in 6 tests in the sub continent other than Rashid. Cook seems to be hinting he's off as well. Rashid ?? The 197 runs he went for in India's innings in this test was the third highest EVER for a bowler playing for England,more than the whole England team scored in the 2nd innings ! And that was on a pitch that was turning sideways ! The only wickets he takes seem to be bad balls that are caught on the boundary. He also dropped Kohli,a straightforward caught and bowled when he was on 45,what a difference that would have made. I said this after the first test,the only left handers who score runs in the sub continent are world class batsmen. Left handers just seem prime candidates for LBW against spin. So what do we do fill the team with left handers !! Root and Bairstow scored 128 in Englands 2nd innings,the SIX left handers scored 38. I would say Buttler has done Ok,(averaging 47)not bad for a no 7 who comes in in difficult conditions. Hameed has been unlucky with the injury,
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Post by foley on Dec 12, 2016 17:02:23 GMT
Our spinners are not in the same class. But to be fair other than Swann (who was a freak in that he was a world class off spinner) maybe Edmunds and Embury (Tufnell on his day and Monty at his best) our spinners since Derek Underwood have been decidedly average.
Many including Vaughan were predicting a 5-0 defeat- well we did a little better than that. But in Indian conditions where our batsmen are playing such a different game to what they are used to, our seam bowlers have been taken out of the equation (except for Stokes' fantastic 5 for) and we simply do not ha ve good enough spinners, no surprise I guess.
Dropped catches, stupid shots, Cook not being at his best have hardly helped but we were always going to be against it.
I reckon that it is time for Cook to step down. Root is likely to be a more aggressive captain and hopefully Cook can get some form back as just a batsman.
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Post by tonyw on Dec 12, 2016 18:19:23 GMT
Our spinners are not in the same class. But to be fair other than Swann (who was a freak in that he was a world class off spinner) maybe Edmunds and Embury (Tufnell on his day and Monty at his best) our spinners since Derek Underwood have been decidedly average. I think if you look at their records - Emburey, Edmonds, Tufnell & Panesar were all indeed very average (and I would add the King of Spain, Ashley Giles, to that list as another equivalent player). They all took somewhere between 120 and 170 wickets at an average of somewhere between 34-41. They all had some good performances from time-to-time, but were rarely match-winners over the course of their careers. Graeme Swann has basically been the only World Class spinner we've produced in the last 35 years. Which is a ridiculously poor run, and an indictment of how we bring through cricketers in this country. Of course right now we're in a situation where it would be absolutely fantastic to have a very average spinner, because all our current options are dross (in Test cricket at least)..... It's like the 90s are back again, and we're cycling through the modern day equivalents of Richard Illingworth, Peter Such & Robert Croft!
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Post by tonyw on Dec 12, 2016 18:24:04 GMT
On the plus side though......
We do at least seem to have unearthed a couple of batsmen with a bit going for them in Jennings & Hameed.
Very early days, of course, but when we're back in England next summer (and Moeen has been returned to his rightful place at #8.....if he still gets into the team at all), a top seven of Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler could have a lot of potential.
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Post by foley on Dec 12, 2016 19:56:10 GMT
On the plus side though...... We do at least seem to have unearthed a couple of batsmen with a bit going for them in Jennings & Hameed. Very early days, of course, but when we're back in England next summer (and Moeen has been returned to his rightful place at #8.....if he still gets into the team at all), a top seven of Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler could have a lot of potential. Yes agreed. The problem is though that Anderson and Broad are getting towards the end. You have to take 20 wickets to win Tests and I can see our bowling going backwards if anything ....
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 12, 2016 21:22:43 GMT
Another poor defeat. Playing 4 seamers on a spinning wicket that offers little to pace bowlers rather highlights the muddled thinking in the team. Not a lot of progress has been made in 6 tests in the sub continent other than Rashid. Cook seems to be hinting he's off as well. Rashid ?? The 197 runs he went for in India's innings in this test was the third highest EVER for a bowler playing for England,more than the whole England team scored in the 2nd innings ! And that was on a pitch that was turning sideways ! The only wickets he takes seem to be bad balls that are caught on the boundary. He also dropped Kohli,a straightforward caught and bowled when he was on 45,what a difference that would have made. I said this after the first test,the only left handers who score runs in the sub continent are world class batsmen. Left handers just seem prime candidates for LBW against spin. So what do we do fill the team with left handers !! Root and Bairstow scored 128 in Englands 2nd innings,the SIX left handers scored 38. I would say Buttler has done Ok,(averaging 47)not bad for a no 7 who comes in in difficult conditions. Hameed has been unlucky with the injury, Yeah, Rashid has looked a test match spinner for the first time across this series. He bowls some rotten stuff at times (no different to Moeen though), but he has developed a lot and started to live up to the potential. It's not good to go for that many runs, but perhaps the glare needs to be at the selectors for picking 2 spinners on that pitch. Regardless of whether they are impressed with his bowling or not. Options and rest. Batty should not have been on the tour. Yeah, he looked good in county cricket, but his bowling is not that threatening to people who play spin a lot. A waste of a spot. England dropped far too many catches. The whole team are culpable for letting India off the hook. A predictable summary of each fielding day was England dropped another catch. Not good enough as a team frankly.
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Post by nige01ox on Dec 12, 2016 21:53:28 GMT
I know he's taken wickets but I don't think Rashid has been particularly good at all. We just have such poor options in the spin department, which I suppose is a symptom of our counties producing either batsmen or seamer-friendly wickets. Have heard Leach from Somerset mentioned? Hopefully he starts the season well and forces his way into the side at the start of the summer.
In terms of the rest of the team, I think we're actually looking good. Might be hard to see that given how heavily we've been thrashed in India, but I feel with Hameed we've finally got our long term opening partner to Cook. He looks so composed and batted with a maturity way beyond his years. I didn't see any of Jennings' innings, but to come in and score a century like that takes a lot of class. Hopefully he will bat at 3, allowing Root to go back to 4 which I believe is his best position. Bairstow has obviously had a tremendous year, got to be the best keeper-batsman in world cricket at present? I'd have that as my top 5, followed by Moeen and Stokes (although I'm not too sure which way round). To me that's a strong batting lineup, and at the very least that should stop Ballance getting anywhere near the side!
Then you've got Woakes, who was terrific last summer. When I first saw him come into the side I wondered what the fuss was about, he just seemed a fairly decent line and length bowler but didn't look at all threatening. But he's added a couple of yards of pace, and now I'd go as far as to say he's the key member of our bowling attack. Stokes' bowling has come on leaps and bounds in the last year to 18 months as well. Broad is 30, so should still have a few years left yet, and is still more than capable of producing one of those magic game-winning spells. Anderson obviously is coming towards the end though. And what a bowler he has been! But in Mark Wood I believe we already have the player to step in and complete the look of our seam attack moving forwards. Whenever I've seen him don the England shirt he's been quality, and I just really hope he can have a good run of health and fitness next year, he really has been unlucky.
So for me, all that's left to do is find a half decent spinner!
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 13, 2016 5:06:42 GMT
I know he's taken wickets but I don't think Rashid has been particularly good at all. We just have such poor options in the spin department, which I suppose is a symptom of our counties producing either batsmen or seamer-friendly wickets. Have heard Leach from Somerset mentioned? Hopefully he starts the season well and forces his way into the side at the start of the summer. In terms of the rest of the team, I think we're actually looking good. Might be hard to see that given how heavily we've been thrashed in India, but I feel with Hameed we've finally got our long term opening partner to Cook. He looks so composed and batted with a maturity way beyond his years. I didn't see any of Jennings' innings, but to come in and score a century like that takes a lot of class. Hopefully he will bat at 3, allowing Root to go back to 4 which I believe is his best position. Bairstow has obviously had a tremendous year, got to be the best keeper-batsman in world cricket at present? I'd have that as my top 5, followed by Moeen and Stokes (although I'm not too sure which way round). To me that's a strong batting lineup, and at the very least that should stop Ballance getting anywhere near the side! Then you've got Woakes, who was terrific last summer. When I first saw him come into the side I wondered what the fuss was about, he just seemed a fairly decent line and length bowler but didn't look at all threatening. But he's added a couple of yards of pace, and now I'd go as far as to say he's the key member of our bowling attack. Stokes' bowling has come on leaps and bounds in the last year to 18 months as well. Broad is 30, so should still have a few years left yet, and is still more than capable of producing one of those magic game-winning spells. Anderson obviously is coming towards the end though. And what a bowler he has been! But in Mark Wood I believe we already have the player to step in and complete the look of our seam attack moving forwards. Whenever I've seen him don the England shirt he's been quality, and I just really hope he can have a good run of health and fitness next year, he really has been unlucky. So for me, all that's left to do is find a half decent spinner! To early or me to judge on Jennings'he was dropped on 0 in the first inning,so a pair wouldnt have people drooling over him if he had,(although Gooch started with one) I still think Buttler is a better keeper than Bairstow,so if you're playing both,give the gloves to him and move Bairstow up to 4/5.
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 13, 2016 5:11:46 GMT
Our spinners are not in the same class. But to be fair other than Swann (who was a freak in that he was a world class off spinner) maybe Edmunds and Embury (Tufnell on his day and Monty at his best) our spinners since Derek Underwood have been decidedly average. I think if you look at their records - Emburey, Edmonds, Tufnell & Panesar were all indeed very average (and I would add the King of Spain, Ashley Giles, to that list as another equivalent player). They all took somewhere between 120 and 170 wickets at an average of somewhere between 34-41. They all had some good performances from time-to-time, but were rarely match-winners over the course of their careers. Graeme Swann has basically been the only World Class spinner we've produced in the last 35 years. Which is a ridiculously poor run, and an indictment of how we bring through cricketers in this country. Of course right now we're in a situation where it would be absolutely fantastic to have a very average spinner, because all our current options are dross (in Test cricket at least)..... It's like the 90s are back again, and we're cycling through the modern day equivalents of Richard Illingworth, Peter Such & Robert Croft! The thing is,we dont provide pitches that spin in England,so as a county you dont spend time developing spinners,when at most you play 1 and sometimes dont play any at all. I actually think sometimes England shouldnt bother with one at home when Root can turns few overs over, Its Ok saying the pitch will spin on day 5,but when most tests in England are over in 3/4 days,whats the point of a spinner ?
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Post by Junior on Dec 13, 2016 7:36:29 GMT
Taunton certainly spun which aided Leach and nearly won them the CC. He only made the lions squad which is touring at the mo. He's not done that well for the lions only taking a handful of wickets. The Curran brothers have been the ones who have done well along with Westley from Essex.
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Post by cj on Dec 13, 2016 8:35:11 GMT
I'd like to see Westley of Essex come into the test side. Really good batsman.
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Post by tonyw on Dec 13, 2016 18:17:09 GMT
The thing is,we dont provide pitches that spin in England,so as a county you dont spend time developing spinners,when at most you play 1 and sometimes dont play any at all. I actually think sometimes England shouldnt bother with one at home when Root can turns few overs over, Its Ok saying the pitch will spin on day 5,but when most tests in England are over in 3/4 days,whats the point of a spinner ? I guess the "it doesn't spin in England, therefore we won't bother trying to bring on spinners" approach is fine - as long as you're happy to never win a series in India again (or against Pakistan, for as long as they keep playing on the dustbowls of the UAE). But if you can find a way to nurture another Swann - or even another Panesar - then you have hope. After all, it was those two in combination wot won us the series last time over there (which is the only victory in India I can remember in my cricket-watching lifetime). It's also hugely important if you want to win a series in Australia too.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 13, 2016 22:19:33 GMT
You need the age Lions teams to tour India/Pakistan/Bangladesh regularly and for young spinners to spend a period of time in India at their spin schools. A player like Rashid has developed a lot in the past year partly due to playing more international cricket, but also playing in the Big Bash and having more exposure to top class players
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Post by Junior on Dec 14, 2016 11:14:21 GMT
Interesting that Monty has just been hired as a new net bowler for Bangladesh.
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 16, 2016 4:39:42 GMT
On the plus side though...... We do at least seem to have unearthed a couple of batsmen with a bit going for them in Jennings & Hameed. Very early days, of course, but when we're back in England next summer (and Moeen has been returned to his rightful place at #8.....if he still gets into the team at all), a top seven of Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler could have a lot of potential. Jennings out for 1 (15 balls),looked all at sea against pace around the wicket. To soon to judge him,but if the Indians sussed out a weakness around the wicket in India,will need to get some time at the wicket before going to the Wacca etc next winter.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 16, 2016 9:02:34 GMT
Thankfully, the WACA is highly unlikely to be used next year as they are building a new stadium there that they want to get into use ASAP. Sounds like the drop in pitch might be a bit of a horror, but no more Fremantle Doctor...
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Post by oldham on Dec 16, 2016 9:19:48 GMT
I was glad of the old Freo Doc when I was there I can tell you, helps keep the sweat out of your eyes.
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Post by Young Money on Dec 16, 2016 11:29:02 GMT
On the plus side though...... We do at least seem to have unearthed a couple of batsmen with a bit going for them in Jennings & Hameed. Very early days, of course, but when we're back in England next summer (and Moeen has been returned to his rightful place at #8.....if he still gets into the team at all), a top seven of Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler could have a lot of potential. Moeen 120 not out... maybe we shouldn't be getting rid of him?!
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 16, 2016 13:17:25 GMT
Dropped on nought though. Did well from what I saw, but not a number 4 anywhere but Asia.
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Post by saddletramp on Dec 17, 2016 7:24:47 GMT
The thing is,we dont provide pitches that spin in England,so as a county you dont spend time developing spinners,when at most you play 1 and sometimes dont play any at all. I actually think sometimes England shouldnt bother with one at home when Root can turns few overs over, Its Ok saying the pitch will spin on day 5,but when most tests in England are over in 3/4 days,whats the point of a spinner ? I guess the "it doesn't spin in England, therefore we won't bother trying to bring on spinners" approach is fine - as long as you're happy to never win a series in India again (or against Pakistan, for as long as they keep playing on the dustbowls of the UAE). But if you can find a way to nurture another Swann - or even another Panesar - then you have hope. After all, it was those two in combination wot won us the series last time over there (which is the only victory in India I can remember in my cricket-watching lifetime). It's also hugely important if you want to win a series in Australia too. To put things in perspective, "It's also hugely important if you want to win a series in Australia too" South Africa have just won a series in Australia,this coming after touring India last winter. They played a 4 test series,lost 3-0 (the other had 3 days washed out) There scores were, 184-109, 214, 79-185, 121-143. So in 7 innings only reached 200 once, scored a total of 1035 at an average of 148, Nobody scored a century, ABV scored 258 in the series(top score 85) 25% of the total runs. So in comparison we've done ok. P.S. Apart from England in 2011,the last team to win in India were the convicts(with Shane Warne) in 2005. P.P.S. We dont tour India again till 2020,so plenty of time to bring someone through
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Post by makv on Jan 19, 2017 8:24:14 GMT
That Virat Kohli. He's quite good isn't he? How do you get him out?
Oh. Like that.
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Post by andystroud on Jan 19, 2017 11:03:14 GMT
It's a shame that they have ten other batsmen!
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jan 19, 2017 11:06:37 GMT
There's been some absolutely awful bowling (Woakes excluded).
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Post by makv on Jan 19, 2017 11:25:23 GMT
There's been some absolutely awful bowling (Woakes excluded). And Stokes.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jan 19, 2017 11:27:58 GMT
Stokes is going for over 8 an over!
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Post by Boogaloo on Jan 19, 2017 12:07:16 GMT
381/6. That will take some beating.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jan 19, 2017 12:09:38 GMT
Moeen Ali had four overs left to bowl and was our most economical bowler - why didn't he bowl all 10?
Plunkett, Stokes and the completely unexceptional Ball gave away 250 runs in 29 overs. Shocking - supposed short balls were long hops, attempted yorkers were full tosses.
Our batsmen are going to have to be on top form to get anywhere near 382!
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Post by SteMerritt on Jan 19, 2017 12:43:40 GMT
50 overs? Pah, too easy. Let's block out the first, then get there in 49...
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