|
Post by Gary Baldi on Jul 8, 2014 21:39:30 GMT
David Luiz is an embarrassment. Michael Raynes, Wright or Mullins, who are good for our level could do a better job. Terrible
|
|
|
Post by andystroud on Jul 8, 2014 21:41:32 GMT
These Brazilian players should fear for their lives. They have been a disgrace to their nation. Not taking anything away from Germany though, they have been clinical.
|
|
|
Post by bazzer9461 on Jul 8, 2014 21:48:11 GMT
David Luiz is an embarrassment. Michael Raynes, Wright or Mullins, who are good for our level could do a better job. Terrible He should have been sent off.
|
|
|
Post by Gary Baldi on Jul 8, 2014 21:50:49 GMT
David Luiz is an embarrassment. Michael Raynes, Wright or Mullins, who are good for our level could do a better job. Terrible He should have been sent off. The bloke is a £50m liability.
|
|
|
Post by nptonexile (Northampton fan) on Jul 8, 2014 21:51:56 GMT
These Brazilian players should fear for their lives. They have been a disgrace to their nation. Not taking anything away from Germany though, they have been clinical. Why's this word always carted out when Germany involved? Like calling any team from outside the Premiership 'plucky' when taking on Prem opponents. Try sublime, stylish or brilliant even!
|
|
|
Post by bazzer9461 on Jul 8, 2014 21:52:15 GMT
He should have been sent off. The bloke is a £50m liability. Yes he is and PSG paid 50 million what a joke.
|
|
|
Post by stokeu on Jul 8, 2014 21:56:32 GMT
Luiz awful. Marcello shown up for being really poor.
|
|
|
Post by bicesterox on Jul 8, 2014 22:00:18 GMT
That was afuckingmazing
I dislike the Germans but by god they are good, and I was even hoping for an 8th
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Jul 8, 2014 22:00:35 GMT
Best match since Uruguay vs Ghana last time. Best Brasil match since 1950.
Come on Argentina!
|
|
|
Post by andystroud on Jul 8, 2014 22:04:11 GMT
These Brazilian players should fear for their lives. They have been a disgrace to their nation. Not taking anything away from Germany though, they have been clinical. Why's this word always carted out when Germany involved? Like calling any team from outside the Premiership 'plucky' when taking on Prem opponents. Try sublime, stylish or brilliant even! Because the main point I was making was about how disgracefully poor, embarrassing, inept, pathetic or sh!t the Brazilian team were.
|
|
|
Post by unification on Jul 8, 2014 22:25:32 GMT
These Brazilian players should fear for their lives. They have been a disgrace to their nation. Not taking anything away from Germany though, they have been clinical. Why's this word always carted out when Germany involved? Like calling any team from outside the Premiership 'plucky' when taking on Prem opponents. Try sublime, stylish or brilliant even! Because football from even top journalists to lower league players can't think of anything other than clichés. It's not just 'a game of two halves' and '110 per cent' and other traditional ones that get rolled out - more recent additions include 'stonewall penalty', 'innocuous challenge' and 'grandstand finish/finale'. All clichés now. As for the game, I never really looked past Germany to beat Brazil, but never expected a 7-1 drubbing. Brazil, for all the praying, bravado and loudest singing of the national anthem, lacked charm, tactical flexibility and - above all - talent at this World Cup. They had bullied their way through to this stage with the obvious talents of Neymar masking their performances as good. They were inches away from defeat against Chile, had massively favourable refs for their wins over Colombia (the treatment James Rodriguez got was appalling) and Croatia, lacked spark against a decent Mexico side and were a pathetic shadow against Germany. Right back always looked a problem for them - Dani Alves has been out of form and the ageing Maicon was always going to get found out against a better team. Throw in walkabout Luiz, a midfield that lacked muscle and an attack that sort of resembled something England still think is effective in international football (Hulk = 'old fashioned centre forward') and it was only a matter of time before they cracked and I'm glad it did. There's talent galore in that German side. Once again, they're the model to follow for success - proper coaching, the focus on technique over results and the 'get 'em doing right' from the start is key. No number of 'B' teams or new fangled training camps will solve the England problem. Coaching is key.
|
|
|
Post by tonyw on Jul 8, 2014 23:33:12 GMT
If one player added £30m to his price tag today - it was Thiago Silva. He was already looking like one of the best defenders in the world.......making up for his teammates' faulty positioning over and over again in the first five games of the tournament. Now we've just seen what an utter, utter shambles they are without him. (you can forget Neymar, there's nothing he could have done to save them tonight......)
It was just the most extraordinary result imaginable. I hope that the Brazilians learn from it, because their football has gone into a dark place in the past decade or so. Where there was prodigious talent, now there's Fred, Paulinho and Bernard. And a whole bunch of diving, shirt pulling, hacking and fouling.
Germany, meanwhile, have had the toughest group, just about the most punishing weather and a difficult knockout draw from the QFs onwards. And aside from about 20 minutes against Ghana, they've always been in control. Class team. Worthy finalists. And big favourites to be worthy winners......but who knows.
[as an aside, today has also got the tournament back on track to possibly have the most goals ever. 171 is the record in 1998......we're on 167 now with three games to go!]
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 6:50:02 GMT
It almost makes me glad we didn't meet Germany. We would have let in at least five against their superb display. Nice to see Brazilian cheating never conned the ref
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Jul 9, 2014 7:44:30 GMT
It was just the most extraordinary result imaginable. I hope that the Brazilians learn from it, because their football has gone into a dark place in the past decade or so. Where there was prodigious talent, now there's Fred, Paulinho and Bernard. And a whole bunch of diving, shirt pulling, hacking and fouling. I think a few people thought Brasil would get hammered unless the ref prevented it; he did a pretty good job. On Brasil, they've played the same dirty game for decades but the seam of gold has run out; plus they seem to picked the manager on the basis that they don't need managing. I hope they have their faces ground in the dirt for a decade. I hope Chile enhance their game and find some tall defenders, I hope Colombia keep Peckermann and find a couple of players to support Rodriguez, I hope Argentina find something. But most of all, I hope Uruguay bring in their young talent and win the next Copa; vamos La Celeste!!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 7:48:00 GMT
Rodriguez was a star player in this tournament. Just a pity the ref let so many fouls on him go unchecked
|
|
|
Post by Boogaloo on Jul 9, 2014 8:14:47 GMT
Thiago Silva was badly missed last night, and his replacement as captain David Luis was absolutely atrocious. He is meant to lead by example and marshall the back four, but he was doing what he does all to often - go galavanting up field, and leaving the others to pick up his mess when it goes wrong. As others of said, I really cannot see why PSG felt the need to spunk £50 million on him - Mourinho and Abrahmovic must be laughing all the way to the bank! Fernandinho and Marcelo were also shockingly poor.
Neymar is a very good player, but not quite up there with Ronaldo or Messi (yet), but even if they had Ronaldo and Messi in the same team, that would not of prevented this shambles.
I have seen better defending when non-League teams get pitted against Premier League opposition in the FA Cup and when teams like San Marino or Andorra get pitted against England. It was an embarrassment, and both the captain and manager have quite rightly apologised to their fans for this disgraceful performance.
|
|
|
Post by Surreal Madrid on Jul 9, 2014 9:56:00 GMT
When Germany scored their 5th goal you Khedira pin drop in my house.
|
|
|
Post by tonyw on Jul 9, 2014 11:49:27 GMT
On Brasil, they've played the same dirty game for decades but the seam of gold has run out; plus they seem to picked the manager on the basis that they don't need managing. I hope they have their faces ground in the dirt for a decade. I hope Chile enhance their game and find some tall defenders, I hope Colombia keep Peckermann and find a couple of players to support Rodriguez, I hope Argentina find something. But most of all, I hope Uruguay bring in their young talent and win the next Copa; vamos La Celeste!! They've always been hard, the Brazilian teams. But they've usually been able to complement that with genuine talent and flair. Their last really good side, in 2002, had some merely functional players and were certainly not above some blatant cheating (looking at you, Skeletor) but they also had - in Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu and Roberto Carlos - five genuinely exciting footballers. Looking at this team, you've got Neymar. Although even he is nowhere near as good as he is being made out. Impressive acceleration and close control but his passing, for an international player, is mediocre. But then you watch Fred lumbering around up front, making predictable gallumphing runs and having the ball bounce off him time and again. And then you see the horribly average (at this level) Bernard, and Fernandinho, and Paulinho, and Ramires, and Luis Gustavo, and Marcelo, and you just wonder where their pipeline went? What happened to this nation of 200 million football nutcases that meant that they stopped producing quality footballers? I'm not sad about it - the Brazilians have been sufficiently arrogant about the whole thing ("this is the fifth step", "we have one hand on the trophy" etc. etc.), and the refereeing has been slanted so much in their favour that they're not getting any sympathy. Just a bit perplexed really........
|
|
|
Post by bicesterox on Jul 9, 2014 12:19:42 GMT
David Luiz was last night back to how I first heard of him
'Like he was being controlled by a 3 year old on a playstation
All over the place
|
|
|
Post by SteMerritt on Jul 9, 2014 12:22:22 GMT
But then you watch Fred lumbering around up front, making predictable gallumphing runs and having the ball bounce off him time and again. Worst Brazilian international I have ever seen.
|
|
|
Post by unification on Jul 9, 2014 12:32:47 GMT
On Brasil, they've played the same dirty game for decades but the seam of gold has run out; plus they seem to picked the manager on the basis that they don't need managing. I hope they have their faces ground in the dirt for a decade. I hope Chile enhance their game and find some tall defenders, I hope Colombia keep Peckermann and find a couple of players to support Rodriguez, I hope Argentina find something. But most of all, I hope Uruguay bring in their young talent and win the next Copa; vamos La Celeste!! They've always been hard, the Brazilian teams. But they've usually been able to complement that with genuine talent and flair. Their last really good side, in 2002, had some merely functional players and were certainly not above some blatant cheating (looking at you, Skeletor) but they also had - in Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu and Roberto Carlos - five genuinely exciting footballers. Looking at this team, you've got Neymar. Although even he is nowhere near as good as he is being made out. Impressive acceleration and close control but his passing, for an international player, is mediocre. But then you watch Fred lumbering around up front, making predictable gallumphing runs and having the ball bounce off him time and again. And then you see the horribly average (at this level) Bernard, and Fernandinho, and Paulinho, and Ramires, and Luis Gustavo, and Marcelo, and you just wonder where their pipeline went? What happened to this nation of 200 million football nutcases that meant that they stopped producing quality footballers? I'm not sad about it - the Brazilians have been sufficiently arrogant about the whole thing ("this is the fifth step", "we have one hand on the trophy" etc. etc.), and the refereeing has been slanted so much in their favour that they're not getting any sympathy. Just a bit perplexed really........ The ascent of money and the changing zeitgiest that goes with it is most likely. Radio 4 were dissecting it this morning on the Today Programme and they mentioned that millions rising up an economic bracket or so across all areas of Brazil has seen less of a take up of football. As more people in Brazil move up the social ladder, football dies away. They're by no means a wealthy country but almost all of their stars from the past have come from the less economically well off areas of Brazil's major cities where they grew up playing futsal and football every daylight hour. With more regular incomes and improving conditions, football may well have become left behind or a secondary interest to a growing middle class. Maybe Brazil is one of the last places to realise that football isn't the working man's game any more? Another sporting parallel I can throw in would be the West Indies cricket team. In the '70s and '80s, they attracted the tallest and the fastest to bowl for them and they were totally destructive with it. However, the loss of the classic Windies fast bowler to the economic lure of the NBA in the US for the tallest players has seen the Windies decline markedly as a Test nation. Money from elsewhere changed their priorities and their interests. It can be something that changes over time or within a generation - money is the gamechanger. More regular money into Brazil has seen a lot of change and with it the priorities of the nation as well - I never thought I'd see a Brazilian crowd actually protesting against holding the World Cup, yet it's something we're seen over the last 12 months. I would have thought that holding it would have been excitement enough for them, but there has been a conscientious movement against FIFA and their government. They may be football-mad still, certainly, but not football-insane when other priorities lay on the horizon. It's not the death knell of Brazilian football, but it's a marker of how far they've fallen. It's take some time to recover from it.
|
|
|
Post by Gary Baldi on Jul 9, 2014 12:33:11 GMT
I honestly think I could replace Fred and do a better job. Terrible.
He must have some dodgy pics of Scolari somewhere to keep playing in that team.
|
|
|
Post by winchesterox on Jul 9, 2014 12:46:48 GMT
Didn't watch it. What was the Brazil goal like?
|
|
|
Post by tonyw on Jul 9, 2014 13:03:30 GMT
The ascent of money and the changing zeitgiest that goes with it is most likely. Radio 4 were dissecting it this morning on the Today Programme and they mentioned that millions rising up an economic bracket or so across all areas of Brazil has seen less of a take up of football. As more people in Brazil move up the social ladder, football dies away. They're by no means a wealthy country but almost all of their stars from the past have come from the less economically well off areas of Brazil's major cities where they grew up playing futsal and football every daylight hour. With more regular incomes and improving conditions, football may well have become left behind or a secondary interest to a growing middle class. Maybe Brazil is one of the last places to realise that football isn't the working man's game any more? It's a strong argument. I don't know much about the football infrastructure in Brazil, but I assume it lags far behind the top nations (and by top nations, I don't mean us but Germany, the Netherlands etc. etc.) in terms of youth development and coaching? In which case, if indeed the natural talent pool is drying up for the reasons you outline, they've got a lot of time and effort ahead of them putting systems in place that will allow them to be competitive in the future. If this is all true, then perhaps a 7-1 defeat was the best thing that could've happened to them. Stir them from their self-satisfied slumber and force change?
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Jul 9, 2014 13:48:48 GMT
The ascent of money and the changing zeitgiest that goes with it is most likely. Sure. And I don't think I disagree with anything in your post, or the one you quote from tonyw. Another sporting parallel I can throw in would be the West Indies cricket team. In the '70s and '80s, they attracted the tallest and the fastest to bowl for them and they were totally destructive with it. However, the loss of the classic Windies fast bowler to the economic lure of the NBA in the US for the tallest players has seen the Windies decline markedly as a Test nation. Not sure whether this is a false analogy or not. In the West Indies basketball offered more money, and opportunity to travel & learn, I believe, but it mostly appealed to one specific demographic (tall, athletic, like). More important - cricket was a declining sport, and part of a declining (English) culture being swamped under the wider availability of a culture (American, black, plus the rebellion enacted in CLR James had become a rebellion enacted by Malcolm X and Motown) that was more appealing. I guess football is a declining sport in Brasil in as much as kids are more likely to play X-Box or whatever instead of football in the street, that capability being somehow related to income. But the same is true of Germany. I don't think football is declining as a global phenomen, perhaps the old centres are burning out; but then how do Uruguay excel (comparatively) with a population of 3m - when their GDP per capita is 30%-50% higher. I don't think Brasilian culture's being overwhelmed; though the internet and the prevalence of US-sourced 'mass culture' will be having an effect (BTW - Brasilian soap operas, dubbed or not) are on one channel in every sub-saharan country for some reason). Basketball was an alternative way for athletic West Indians to make a vastly better income, is there an equivalent in Brasil? I don't think it's because X can earn a living & own a car as a painter that he doesn't try to be a footballer. I'm pretty sure it's not the same model as the West Indies. I don't know the answer to what it is, but maybe it'll be interesting to take a stab. More regular money into Brazil has seen a lot of change and with it the priorities of the nation as well - I never thought I'd see a Brazilian crowd actually protesting against holding the World Cup, yet it's something we're seen over the last 12 months. (Sorry for the selective quoting, not trying to spoil your 'message', just bouncing off it a bit.) Money, society. Money: remembering we're not concerned with the wealthy as they don't tend to play football seriously. By how much has the 'bottom half' has increased it's income or, perhaps more to the point, it's job security? What other legal occupations are open to the 'bottom half' to make relatively large income. How many 'football jobs' are available to a fast-growing population? How safe and prevalent are illegal occupations? Society: One thing I think is obvious (but I don't know what it means) is that 'knowledge' and 'entertainment' are far more readily available than they were 20 years ago; there's more to choose from. Another is that opportunity (in South America) has grown. The analogy with West Indies could be apt here; in CLR James' time cricket was a 'rebellion against' the imperial organisation for him and great players like Worrell were drawn into that: don't tell me the young Viv, Curtly and Courtney weren't fired by that. By the time they were playing, the government and organisation were under um 'native control' - and there were many other ways to earn and be individual. The governments in South America have become less repressive and are in the hands of an inward-looking stratum rather than an outward-looking clique. There are more opportunities elsewhere than there were. Priorities are different, people know more, there are more things to do. It's not the death knell of Brazilian football, but it's a marker of how far they've fallen. It's take some time to recover from it. Or maybe they won't, for a very long time. Informal societies of football (street / beach football) will fail to produce talent as incomes rise and until incomes rise enough to make formal societies of football appealing and acceptable as a social and sporting activity (as they are in e.g. Germany, USA) Brasil won't rediscover an escalator of talent or the organisational training to overcome it's lack.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Jul 9, 2014 13:55:35 GMT
I don't know much about the football infrastructure in Brazil, but I assume it lags far behind the top nations (and by top nations, I don't mean us but Germany, the Netherlands etc. etc.) in terms of youth development and coaching? In which case, if indeed the natural talent pool is drying up for the reasons you outline, they've got a lot of time and effort ahead of them putting systems in place that will allow them to be competitive in the future. If this is all true, then perhaps a 7-1 defeat was the best thing that could've happened to them. Stir them from their self-satisfied slumber and force change? /slaps forehead. I could have just 'liked' this. Damn.
|
|