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Post by ounykee14 on May 17, 2012 13:15:50 GMT
It's all well and good saying we owned our own ground, but it was a ground we wouldn't have actually been able to play in the league at.
If you want to go back to that situation, I'm more than happy to donate OUFC a bit of turf outside my house.
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Post by hairy on May 17, 2012 13:25:45 GMT
If Herefords ground was passed for the Football league (along with quite a few others) then the Manor would have been fine. No one has ever been kicked out for having a crap ground, although getting back in if we had been relegated would of been a different matter.
Better to own a dump than have to rent a souless, unfinished dump (and it is, for a "new" ground pretty poor) surely?
I know we would of had to move eventually but nobody can be happy with the situation we ended up with, been at the Kasssam ten years and it still doesnt feel like home.
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Post by Gary Baldi on May 17, 2012 13:34:20 GMT
The Manor had a big problem with Absestos. I believe the safety guard rails on the terraces were basically illegal. The good grace of the authorities kept it open, if there was no prospect of moving we'd have been in serious trouble.
If we had an asset with no mortgage, then sure it's a different situation. But we didn't. We had a mortgage and accumulates debts we had no way of paying back and no planning permission. Our situation now isn't great, but the Manor towards the end was a homely, but joke of a ground. And I hate saying that.
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Post by ounykee14 on May 17, 2012 13:39:31 GMT
If Herefords ground was passed for the Football league (along with quite a few others) then the Manor would have been fine. No one has ever been kicked out for having a crap ground, although getting back in if we had been relegated would of been a different matter. Better to own a dump than have to rent a souless, unfinished dump (and it is, for a "new" ground pretty poor) surely? I know we would of had to move eventually but nobody can be happy with the situation we ended up with, been at the Kasssam ten years and it still doesnt feel like home. I'd been looking into various things surrounding the lease/building of the current ground, the rules regarding the condition of The Manor at the time we left and the viability of a new ground with City or someone else due to the fact it's getting a lot of talk, and I thought I'd actually educate myself. Anyway, with regards to the condition of The Manor, this article says: www.oxfordmail.co.uk/archive/1998/07/28/Oxfordshire+Archive/6639115.Angry_city_councillors_demand_Oxford_United_name_the_mystery_money_men/As well as this, there's a report, although not written by the club, it's hosted on the club site and features interviews with club staff, whom i'm sure would have corrected anything incorrect, which states:
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Post by hairy on May 17, 2012 14:04:38 GMT
So basically the only way we could continue playing in the Manor and in the Football League (or just what is the now the Championship?) was to start building a ground we had no money for, that probably explains why it has been such a complete cock up from now until then.
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Post by swissyellow on May 17, 2012 14:40:21 GMT
Sometimes I forget that being involved back then that a lot of the information has probably gone long into memory, but here's a summary of why we are where we are.
Also I think Kassam was a disaster for the club as if he'd invested in the playing staff at the right time we'd have never dropped from League one, let alone into the conference. However OUFC still exist because of him,
Post our 1st division days Oxford and roughly the same time that Maxwell died, the club became financially crippled.
Robin Herd picked up the pieces after the short and costly Biomass takeover
After the Taylor report the Manor was quickly evident of being far short of football league safety requirements. The London Road would need replacing due to the dangerous levels of asbestos and other factors. The full capacity would have been somewhere around the 2,800 mark.
Herd continued the plans to move Oxford United, finally finding a location - previous sites (ToysrUs site on Botley Road and Sandy Lane Cowley having been rejected when Maxwell tried to move us)
Herd overspent whilst trying desperately to bring new funding to Oxford, Briatore and Eddie Jordan were rumoured to be on the brink of taking over. The club finally hit debts of massive magnitudes
Herd moved the club to Kieth Cox, Cox managed the clubs daliances with administration and banks trying to close the club down.
At the turn of the century the club was about to go pop. FOUL was formed, PR was raised, council involved and Kassam appeared.
He cleared debts (whilst upsetting lots of local business who were owed money) and seemed to have the right intentions, restarting the ground and bringing in the likes of football people like Joe Kinnear.
Pretty soon Kassam stopped trusting those around him, the shenanigans with "The Gang of Four" didn't help.
The Gang of Four included Jim Rosenthal and they had an alternate plan to stay at the Manor, they had roughly £120k to keep the club going for one more season, they planned to keep us at the Manor with the reduced capacity.
They dropped out of the race, Kassam took over and the stadium was completed. Kassam got the additional land and built the Ozone and hotel.
Kassam, IMHO fell out of favour quickly and in turn cut costs, let's not forget he spent A LOT of cash bringing in the Diaz experiment, probably the wildest and possibly most positive managerial appointment Oxford have ever made.
The clubs debts stood at around half of what they previously were. Fans wanted change and Kassam sold the club to Woodstock Partners.
There's only 2 other outcomes.
1 - If we'd have stayed at the Manor, we'd be either langishing in League 2 or conference will very little prospect of imporiving. Crowds of 2,800 would not have kept a decent squad and the club would have very little assets. Given the debt, as some point the Manor would have been sold for it's land value.
2 - If the club had popped out of existence, a new pheonix club might possibly playing in the Conference South or North at most, but at perhaps a 5,000-6,000 custom built ground somewhere around the ring-road.
Shout and curse at Kassam but the club would still be up the shitter. There was LOTS he did wrong and we have to buy the ground back from him for Oxford United to go forward.
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Post by Simon Lill on May 17, 2012 14:49:45 GMT
I'd tried to forget most of that history Swissyellow!
It's not until someone summarises it that you realise the younger fans of this club probably have no real clue about just how much of a sh*t this club has been in, in the past.
They cite a 'sh*t manager', dropping ST sales, poor performances on the pitch and the age old 'we're too big for this league' bollocks. When in fact they should be grateful they have a professional football club in our city at all!
Things may not be super rosey at the moment, and sure money may be tight. But where we are now, to where we've been...well, theres just no comparison.
They were dark days
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Post by southstandyellow on May 17, 2012 15:07:38 GMT
good post Lill ^^^^^
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Post by scoob on May 17, 2012 15:30:03 GMT
The fact that there is a potential rugby tenant in tow makes a stadium purchase more likely in my view. I would be grateful if you could explain why some of you have that view. As I have already explained I see it that if the current owner of the stadium has another tennant and another revenue stream leading to increased profits then that could add to the current value of the stadium making a purchase less likely. The selling price of the stadium was based on the bricks and mortar value plus the Stadco Profitability (ie £10M + £3M) so if the profitability of the Stadco increases, and it already has since that price was revealed, then the value of the stadium could have increased too. However, if the price is fixed and the Stadco has more income then that would fund more borrowing so could increase the chance of a purchae but fixed prices are not how the world usually works.
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Post by hairy on May 17, 2012 15:51:08 GMT
Sometimes I forget that being involved back then that a lot of the information has probably gone long into memory, but here's a summary of why we are where we are. Also I think Kassam was a disaster for the club as if he'd invested in the playing staff at the right time we'd have never dropped from League one, let alone into the conference. However OUFC still exist because of him, Post our 1st division days Oxford and roughly the same time that Maxwell died, the club became financially crippled. Robin Herd picked up the pieces after the short and costly Biomass takeover After the Taylor report the Manor was quickly evident of being far short of football league safety requirements. The London Road would need replacing due to the dangerous levels of asbestos and other factors. The full capacity would have been somewhere around the 2,800 mark. Herd continued the plans to move Oxford United, finally finding a location - previous sites (ToysrUs site on Botley Road and Sandy Lane Cowley having been rejected when Maxwell tried to move us) Herd overspent whilst trying desperately to bring new funding to Oxford, Briatore and Eddie Jordan were rumoured to be on the brink of taking over. The club finally hit debts of massive magnitudes Herd moved the club to Kieth Cox, Cox managed the clubs daliances with administration and banks trying to close the club down. At the turn of the century the club was about to go pop. FOUL was formed, PR was raised, council involved and Kassam appeared. He cleared debts (whilst upsetting lots of local business who were owed money) and seemed to have the right intentions, restarting the ground and bringing in the likes of football people like Joe Kinnear. Pretty soon Kassam stopped trusting those around him, the shenanigans with "The Gang of Four" didn't help. The Gang of Four included Jim Rosenthal and they had an alternate plan to stay at the Manor, they had roughly £120k to keep the club going for one more season, they planned to keep us at the Manor with the reduced capacity. They dropped out of the race, Kassam took over and the stadium was completed. Kassam got the additional land and built the Ozone and hotel. Kassam, IMHO fell out of favour quickly and in turn cut costs, let's not forget he spent A LOT of cash bringing in the Diaz experiment, probably the wildest and possibly most positive managerial appointment Oxford have ever made. The clubs debts stood at around half of what they previously were. Fans wanted change and Kassam sold the club to Woodstock Partners. There's only 2 other outcomes. 1 - If we'd have stayed at the Manor, we'd be either langishing in League 2 or conference will very little prospect of imporiving. Crowds of 2,800 would not have kept a decent squad and the club would have very little assets. Given the debt, as some point the Manor would have been sold for it's land value. 2 - If the club had popped out of existence, a new pheonix club might possibly playing in the Conference South or North at most, but at perhaps a 5,000-6,000 custom built ground somewhere around the ring-road. Shout and curse at Kassam but the club would still be up the shitter. There was LOTS he did wrong and we have to buy the ground back from him for Oxford United to go forward. Why would a pheonix club be playing at blue square south level at highest, Wimbledon are in the league as us with virtually the exact sized ground you say about and with smaller crowds than we would get. We have been languishing in L2 and the Conference for the last ten years now, so on the playing front it has been no better than if Kassam hadnt saved us, not sure I would of fancied us playing in front of crowds of 2,500 but Stevenage seem to get by. Had forgotten about Biomass and our plans for world domination based on recycling everything, that was yet another strange owner.
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Post by chamonixox on May 17, 2012 15:54:02 GMT
Eric - on this occasion I'll disagree with you on this one. For a start - I loved playing the game. Violence and aggression and no CCTV to worry about - you should try it sometime! No Aquascutum however - rugby blokes prefer contact to posturing!! Certainly better than playing football on a Sunday and find you had a fine in the post by Thursday for some innocuous tackle ("it was below the waste Ref")! As for the middle-class twats bit - father (RIP) worked at Pressed Steel Fisher welding Rolls Royces (so he did have a roller - even if it was for just for 5 minutes at a time) and with several boys I wouldn't exactly call us posh! Also, pop down the road to Didcot and ask for the boys that used to play for Didcot RFC if they are middle class and posh!! Finally on the posh point, having lived in Leicester for nearly a decade, I wouldn't call Tigers or Saints fans exactly posh either - and as for Gloucester....... Huge misconception - with the exception of the south east and particular Surrey teams! Oxford is in my blood despite having moved away - but out of the two games (Rugby and Football), one you need a brain and some bollocks - the other you don't (and I'm afraid it aint football with the former)! If it wasn't for Oxford I wouldn't give a shit about the round ball game - players diving, whining, arguing with refs, ridiculous salaries, WAGs, prawn sandwiches, all seater stadiums, I could go on - it aint the same and one might argue its football that has become the posh middle class bore! Watch a game of rugby and its fast, ferocious and thoroughly entertaining - can it be said the same about football? All in all - sharing costs has to be a good thing and I'm surprised so many are against it? Pitch has to be managed yes, but this means more money for the club, and therefore hopefully players, back room staff, youth and reserve teams, wider marketing opportunities, etc? And as pointed out by others - perhaps a long-term financial model that might make buying the ground a little closer? Only problem I see with it is that its London Welsh - as there is no way I'm going to watch anything to do with that lot over the border (the wife the exception - she is Welsh but each day she gets 'little' more English)! Watching and supporting anything Welsh is after all nearly as heinous as being associated with that lot down the A420! And funnily enough - they both play in red! I was waiting for a post like this.You shouldn't jump to conclusions about people, chap. You see I come from a working class background, but I passed my 11+ exam, so went to a rugby playing grammar school. I played for the school team and my views on rugby come from the inside, not as an outsider. I still maintain that it's a middle class sport and a lot of the people who follow it (as opposed to those who play it) are middle class twerps, hoorah Henry types who think it somehow makes them tough, being a rugby fan, singing stupid songs, and playing daft drinking games. They are the sort of people who were bullied at school (probably by people like me!) and quite frankly I think they are wankers and I don't want them associated with my football club. And anybody that knows me will tell you that going to Didcot, or any other rugby club, to air my views, would hold no fears for me. Perhaps your expectation clouded your objectivity in terms of what I have said (you expectation made a 'self fulfilling prophecy'! At no time have I made a judgement on your intellect and neither would I! I aint the sort to say something on here I wouldn't say to someone's face! Look back on my posts if you want clarity on that one! Typically your posts are always well informed and thought out! Not everyone will agree with the angle you come from, but few can argue that it is not carefully debated and well constructed. I agree that some 'hangers on' can be pompous arses but this is typically a South East thing rather than a rugby wide issue. Same nowadays with many football clubs as a matter of fact! As for the Didcot thing - the point was reference to the posh comment not about posturing, bravery or how hard one group is compared to the next! Being brought up on 70's and 80's football I have no issue with the traditional 'fun' of the game but lets not make every post about it!
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Post by mojofilter on May 17, 2012 17:08:25 GMT
Before kassam came along we were almost bust. He did save us. Falling into the conference vs Falling out of existence. controversial opinions!
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Post by klimt on May 17, 2012 18:30:48 GMT
This is directly to Eric. READ the BBC report: Here's some quotes "It is a great opportunity to bring top-flight rugby to Oxford, and another top-flight sport to the community," Thomas continued. "But we won't forget our fan base in south west London and will make sure they can get there. "I've had direct conversations with [Oxford United chairman] Kelvin Thomas that have been very constructive. "Clearly from the football club's point of view we would be able to share costs and build links in the community." and the MOST important point, remember I'm no Kassam fan at all : read THIS QUOTE "Thomas believes the move could be mutually beneficial for both clubs, although the owner of the ground Firoz Kassam would also need to approve the move. " Shock of shocks, perhaps the club put this together and not Kassam. Interesting. Although the bit about kassam having to approve it is not a direct quote at all, merely the writer's words, so could mean nothing. Still can't say I'm happy with it. How about we have our own ground, which we own, and us, and only us, play on it, as an idea? Oh yeah, that's what we had before kassam came along![/b] Along with crippling debts and people standing outside the Manor ground with buckets asking for contributions. A half built stadium, with the builders leaving the site, creditors demanding their money and a lot of people very insecure about their jobs. Yes it was all very Rosy before Kassam came in and screwed the club. A little bit of objectivity please Eric and a lot less sentimentality, if you can manage it.
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Post by Colin B on May 17, 2012 19:11:47 GMT
Interesting. Although the bit about kassam having to approve it is not a direct quote at all, merely the writer's words, so could mean nothing. Still can't say I'm happy with it. How about we have our own ground, which we own, and us, and only us, play on it, as an idea? Oh yeah, that's what we had before kassam came along![/b] Along with crippling debts and people standing outside the Manor ground with buckets asking for contributions. A half built stadium, with the builders leaving the site, creditors demanding their money and a lot of people very insecure about their jobs. Yes it was all very Rosy before Kassam came in and screwed the club. A little bit of objectivity please Eric and a lot less sentimentality, if you can manage it. [/quote] So kassam didn't rip the arse out of the club for his own gain then? Did I imagine that? Oh, and I'll post what I want, thanks.
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Post by Colin B on May 17, 2012 19:21:44 GMT
I was waiting for a post like this.You shouldn't jump to conclusions about people, chap. You see I come from a working class background, but I passed my 11+ exam, so went to a rugby playing grammar school. I played for the school team and my views on rugby come from the inside, not as an outsider. I still maintain that it's a middle class sport and a lot of the people who follow it (as opposed to those who play it) are middle class twerps, hoorah Henry types who think it somehow makes them tough, being a rugby fan, singing stupid songs, and playing daft drinking games. They are the sort of people who were bullied at school (probably by people like me!) and quite frankly I think they are wankers and I don't want them associated with my football club. And anybody that knows me will tell you that going to Didcot, or any other rugby club, to air my views, would hold no fears for me. Perhaps your expectation clouded your objectivity in terms of what I have said (you expectation made a 'self fulfilling prophecy'! At no time have I made a judgement on your intellect and neither would I! I aint the sort to say something on here I wouldn't say to someone's face! Look back on my posts if you want clarity on that one! Typically your posts are always well informed and thought out! Not everyone will agree with the angle you come from, but few can argue that it is not carefully debated and well constructed. I agree that some 'hangers on' can be pompous arses but this is typically a South East thing rather than a rugby wide issue. Same nowadays with many football clubs as a matter of fact! As for the Didcot thing - the point was reference to the posh comment not about posturing, bravery or how hard one group is compared to the next! Being brought up on 70's and 80's football I have no issue with the traditional 'fun' of the game but lets not make every post about it! Fair comments, but your original post read to me as if you were "bigging up" rugby and it's followers. Didn't feel as though I was bringing the 70's and 80's into anything, just making the point that I don't buy the "rugby people are tough" myth. Anyway, you seem a reasonably balanced fella, based on this and other posts, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...........I still don't like rugby or want to share a stadium with them though!!!
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Post by klimt on May 17, 2012 20:19:55 GMT
[/b] Along with crippling debts and people standing outside the Manor ground with buckets asking for contributions. A half built stadium, with the builders leaving the site, creditors demanding their money and a lot of people very insecure about their jobs. Yes it was all very Rosy before Kassam came in and screwed the club. A little bit of objectivity please Eric and a lot less sentimentality, if you can manage it. [/quote] So kassam didn't rip the arse out of the club for his own gain then? Did I imagine that? Oh, and I'll post what I want, thanks.[/quote] You see youre at it again, I haven't said a word about what Kassam didnt do with the club. What I said was; Along with crippling debts and people standing outside the Manor ground with buckets asking for contributions. A half built stadium, with the builders leaving the site, creditors demanding their money and a lot of people very insecure about their jobs. Yes it was all very Rosy before Kassam came in and screwed the club.So do of course 'post what you want' but try and respond to what is written, and dont try and distort my posts with your own skewed take on what you read.
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Post by Colin B on May 17, 2012 21:36:44 GMT
So kassam didn't rip the arse out of the club for his own gain then? Did I imagine that? Oh, and I'll post what I want, thanks. You see youre at it again, I haven't said a word about what Kassam didnt do with the club. What I said was; Along with crippling debts and people standing outside the Manor ground with buckets asking for contributions. A half built stadium, with the builders leaving the site, creditors demanding their money and a lot of people very insecure about their jobs. Yes it was all very Rosy before Kassam came in and screwed the club.So do of course 'post what you want' but try and respond to what is written, and dont try and distort my posts with your own skewed take on what you read. We were better off then. Not necessarily financially (although kassam has seen to it that we'll almost certainly never be in control of our own destiny again) but as a unit, with a home, an identity, a heart, a sense of being and belonging, a sense of pride. What have we got now? Where's the spirit of the Manor days? It wasn't all bad then, but even when it was, we stuck together, well that's certainly changed for the worse. Has that passed your test of responding to what was written? Do I give a shit? No, not really. If you don't like it, don't respond to it.
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Post by Lone Gunman on May 17, 2012 22:05:04 GMT
You see youre at it again, I haven't said a word about what Kassam didnt do with the club. What I said was; Along with crippling debts and people standing outside the Manor ground with buckets asking for contributions. A half built stadium, with the builders leaving the site, creditors demanding their money and a lot of people very insecure about their jobs. Yes it was all very Rosy before Kassam came in and screwed the club.So do of course 'post what you want' but try and respond to what is written, and dont try and distort my posts with your own skewed take on what you read. We were better off then. Not necessarily financially (although kassam has seen to it that we'll almost certainly never be in control of our own destiny again) but as a unit, with a home, an identity, a heart, a sense of being and belonging, a sense of pride. What have we got now? Where's the spirit of the Manor days? It wasn't all bad then, but even when it was, we stuck together, well that's certainly changed for the worse. Has that passed your test of responding to what was written? Do I give a shit? No, not really. If you don't like it, don't respond to it. While I appreciate the emotional side of your argument i think what is abundantly clear is that staying at the Manor was simply not a viable option. The Club's 'heart' might be sickly now but had we stayed at the manor it is unlikely that there would have been even that. Ka$$am undoubtedly screwed our club eventually, but without his initial input we might all be supporting AFC Oxford or worse.
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Post by Gary Baldi on May 17, 2012 22:12:48 GMT
Eric, answer me this. When was the last time the club was in control of it's destiny?
Do you mean the spirit of the Manor in the 80s? Or just optimism of getting promotions and playing in the big league?
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 23:58:47 GMT
He saved and then screwed the club. This is the final verdict.
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Post by Colin B on May 18, 2012 5:50:49 GMT
We were better off then. Not necessarily financially (although kassam has seen to it that we'll almost certainly never be in control of our own destiny again) but as a unit, with a home, an identity, a heart, a sense of being and belonging, a sense of pride. What have we got now? Where's the spirit of the Manor days? It wasn't all bad then, but even when it was, we stuck together, well that's certainly changed for the worse. Has that passed your test of responding to what was written? Do I give a shit? No, not really. If you don't like it, don't respond to it. While I appreciate the emotional side of your argument i think what is abundantly clear is that staying at the Manor was simply not a viable option. The Club's 'heart' might be sickly now but had we stayed at the manor it is unlikely that there would have been even that. Ka$$am undoubtedly screwed our club eventually, but without his initial input we might all be supporting AFC Oxford or worse. Staying at the Manor may not have been a viable option, but it didn't need to come to this. It's all about the owner(s) that take a club over and their intentions and ability.
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Post by Colin B on May 18, 2012 5:52:46 GMT
Eric, answer me this. When was the last time the club was in control of it's destiny? Do you mean the spirit of the Manor in the 80s? Or just optimism of getting promotions and playing in the big league? Before kassam came along.
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Post by superox on May 18, 2012 6:11:45 GMT
How long before Kassam came along ?
We almost went bust in 1979, 1982 (under Reeves) 1992 (post Maxwell) and 1997 (under Herd)
We've never had money and have always been in debt.
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Post by SteMerritt on May 18, 2012 7:42:13 GMT
I must say that I feel the club has changed massively since the 80s and 90s to me, going to The Manor every fortnight or so was an event, meeting in the bar beforehand for a few jars, onto the LRT, the camaraderie on that terrace was unlike anything you get at The Kassam. The sense of belonging to something, playing decent attacking football (which didn't always come off), sticking it to clubs much bigger than ourselves...
The Kassam has never felt like an adequate replacement, and I know loads of people who feel they lost a part of their club when we moved.
Kassam was the last cog (and the biggest cog) in the machine that changed the old OUFC, started by the fall of the Maxwell empire. Of course some things have changed for the better as well.
Not sure if any of this is relevant to this thread, but hey, too late now... :-)
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Post by junior1 on May 18, 2012 8:25:46 GMT
Brilliant post ^^^
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Post by southstandyellow on May 18, 2012 9:37:08 GMT
great post merritt ^^^^ I really miss the Manor Experience :-(
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Post by Simon Lill on May 18, 2012 9:51:18 GMT
Amen to that. I feel sorry for my kids and the other young fans who never experienced it.
Great days.
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Post by klimt on May 18, 2012 10:54:52 GMT
Agreed. I used to live in Franklin Road, minutes away from the Manor, and used to take my sons when I first moved back to Oxford. There is absolutely no doubt that the contrast between the last match at the manor and the first at the Kassam was enormous in terms of atmosphere and a sense of connection.
That said, things were very 'disconnected' behind the scenes, and prime picking for our 'saviour'. Hard as it may be for some to accept, the fiscal realities of Oxford United, and the emotional loyalties are, and will always be some distance apart
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Post by southstandyellow on May 18, 2012 11:02:40 GMT
I will never forget getting onto the pitch at the Manor from the London Road at the last match v Port Vale. That was an emotional evening for those who were there.... :-( Manor Ground RIP 1925-2001
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Post by Simon Lill on May 18, 2012 11:03:26 GMT
I recall that first game and season at The Kassam very well.
And I hold my hands up and admit that I didn't handle the sudden disappearance of the London Road 'voice' well.
If I recall rightly there was public outrage at my behaviour in fact! And a seperate incident in which I was caught in the middle resulted in numerous emails to the club and me being banned from my ST seat for the last few games!
Have to admit, it's better now. Mainly because I've moved up a few rows!
God, I miss the London Road!
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