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Post by dannyc on Feb 27, 2011 14:02:48 GMT
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Post by oxfordyid on Feb 27, 2011 14:40:05 GMT
More importantly.. why were we giving aid to Russia and China anyway?!
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Post by moobs on Feb 27, 2011 17:02:28 GMT
We want to be cosy as possible with China if you ask me
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 18:11:24 GMT
Why are we giving aid to anyone? I am still annoyed that we are baling out Ireland. And don't get me started on the EU
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Post by moobs on Feb 27, 2011 21:39:57 GMT
Why are we giving aid to anyone? I am still annoyed that we are baling out Ireland. And don't get me started on the EU That's obvious, we sell more exports to Ireland than any other Country, so we need them to have a sound economy and Banking system. As for the EU we should have trade ties and economical benefits but the European Union and single currency just doesn't work and never will as Spain, Greece, Portugal are finding out to their huge cost. Only after much unrest and hemorhagging swathes of money will we all realise this.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 27, 2011 22:30:12 GMT
Why are we giving aid to anyone? I am still annoyed that we are baling out Ireland. And don't get me started on the EU That's obvious, we sell more exports to Ireland than any other Country, so we need them to have a sound economy and Banking system. As for the EU we should have trade ties and economical benefits but the European Union and single currency just doesn't work and never will as Spain, Greece, Portugal are finding out to their huge cost. Only after much unrest and hemorhagging swathes of money will we all realise this. Disagree, its not the case that the single currency 'doesn't work,' the problem is that it creates an interconnectedness which is not commensurate with the powers of the EU over member states. Because countries still are able to manager their macroeconomic affairs there will be instances where members states make bad choices and screw up. Trouble is that everybody then takes a hit because two or three of the members dropped a clanger. The problem for the single currency is that it relies on a level of integration which has not yet been reached by the rest of the EU's structure.
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Post by followtheox (the original) on Feb 28, 2011 16:55:47 GMT
For once i agree with you, giving aid to a country that spends as much as India do on space projects is crazy.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Feb 28, 2011 18:09:30 GMT
For once i agree with you, giving aid to a country that spends as much as India do on space projects is crazy. I'd worry more about paying aid to a country which spends so much on nuclear and conventional arsenals while millions of their people live in squalor. Same goes for China.
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Post by hht on Mar 1, 2011 0:36:02 GMT
If we want to cosy up to China more, then England/Britain needs more of a presence there. I have lived in china (mainland) for the last 6 months and every western thing is American, from people I have met there is more love for English people than american due to America's firm stance on lecturing the world, we could easily use this to our advantage and try to become Chinas western ally.
That is from an economic point of view, obviously people may have issues to do with rights. But is doing business with China as bad/any worse than selling arms to fund civil wars across the world? We do that anyway.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Mar 1, 2011 0:42:19 GMT
If we want to cosy up to China more, then England/Britain needs more of a presence there. I have lived in china (mainland) for the last 6 months and every western thing is American, from people I have met there is more love for English people than american due to America's firm stance on lecturing the world, we could easily use this to our advantage and try to become Chinas western ally. That is from an economic point of view, obviously people may have issues to do with rights. But is doing business with China as bad/any worse than selling arms to fund civil wars across the world? We do that anyway. Odd that, since we spent a fair amount of time bumping off a large number of their people and burning down their capital about 150 years ago. The Americans have never done that. Admittedly they spent a fair bit of time helping the capitalist chinese to kill communist ones but that's not quite the same thing.
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Post by dannyc on Mar 1, 2011 0:59:29 GMT
If we want to cosy up to China more, then England/Britain needs more of a presence there. I have lived in china (mainland) for the last 6 months and every western thing is American, from people I have met there is more love for English people than american due to America's firm stance on lecturing the world, we could easily use this to our advantage and try to become Chinas western ally. That is from an economic point of view, obviously people may have issues to do with rights. But is doing business with China as bad/any worse than selling arms to fund civil wars across the world? We do that anyway. Odd that, since we spent a fair amount of time bumping off a large number of their people and burning down their capital about 150 years ago. The Americans have never done that. Admittedly they spent a fair bit of time helping the capitalist chinese to kill communist ones but that's not quite the same thing. oh really was you around back then do you have a time machine
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Post by Beav on Mar 1, 2011 1:37:12 GMT
Odd that, since we spent a fair amount of time bumping off a large number of their people and burning down their capital about 150 years ago. The Americans have never done that. Admittedly they spent a fair bit of time helping the capitalist chinese to kill communist ones but that's not quite the same thing. oh really was you around back then do you have a time machine Really DannyC? Really? You've said something THAT stupid. Just incase you blaze me by being some sort of time-machine inventing genius - you didn't build one, go back in time and see that we DIDN'T burn it did you?
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Post by dannyc on Mar 1, 2011 1:48:43 GMT
oh really was you around back then do you have a time machine Really DannyC? Really? You've said something THAT stupid. Just incase you blaze me by being some sort of time-machine inventing genius - you didn't build one, go back in time and see that we DIDN'T burn it did you? well why do people always make that same excuse about how we did this and that when it happened centuries ago i wasn't there so why should i be blamed and others in this country .
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Post by Beav on Mar 1, 2011 2:50:36 GMT
Because WE did do that... CENTURIES AGO. The people who lived centuries ago's grand(x10) children will be upset about what our grand(x10) parents did to them. But recently they've had worse problems in Japan so their focus of hatred will probably not be so prominent and stuff ( thanks hht)
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Post by hht on Mar 1, 2011 3:26:59 GMT
Perhaps it says a lot about the chinese. I have two opinions on why they do not dislike English (or at least not enmasse). The first is Chinese people I am friends with, meet, see every day, play football with, live with are all fairly peace loving. The second is perhaps linked in that their recent history is with Japan, which is horrific. So their focus of any hatred left is with Japan. I mean realistically how much hatred do people have with Europe? we have been at war with europe for thousands of years until recently. We remember Hitler because it was within our touching distance ie my grandfather fought. But in 200-300 years it will be much less prominent in our mentality.
Also in regards to your comment about Hitler being fine in a couple hundread years, no he won't be, but even now we don't hold people age 20/30 or whatever in Germany responsible for the war??
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Post by Beav on Mar 1, 2011 3:38:46 GMT
hht - that was probably the worst point I have ever made in a post.
I am tired. I'm deleting the embarressing part.
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Post by moobs on Mar 1, 2011 10:56:36 GMT
Perhaps it says a lot about the chinese. I have two opinions on why they do not dislike English (or at least not enmasse). The first is Chinese people I am friends with, meet, see every day, play football with, live with are all fairly peace loving. The second is perhaps linked in that their recent history is with Japan, which is horrific. So their focus of any hatred left is with Japan. I mean realistically how much hatred do people have with Europe? we have been at war with europe for thousands of years until recently. We remember Hitler because it was within our touching distance ie my grandfather fought. But in 200-300 years it will be much less prominent in our mentality. Also in regards to your comment about Hitler being fine in a couple hundread years, no he won't be, but even now we don't hold people age 20/30 or whatever in Germany responsible for the war??I do. When on holiday in Spain, if I bump into a German while queuing for the buffet i'll give him that look, that look that just says 'I don't like you and never will'
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Post by dannyc on Mar 1, 2011 13:20:41 GMT
Because WE did do that... CENTURIES AGO. The people who lived centuries ago's grand(x10) children will be upset about what our grand(x10) parents did to them. But recently they've had worse problems in Japan so their focus of hatred will probably not be so prominent and stuff ( thanks hht) British ancestors did yes but why should me and you get hostility for what happened then its not like the Chinese people today where there back then anyway its like saying oh Germans today should be hated because of ww2 .
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Post by Lone Gunman on Mar 1, 2011 13:22:32 GMT
Perhaps it says a lot about the chinese. I have two opinions on why they do not dislike English (or at least not enmasse). The first is Chinese people I am friends with, meet, see every day, play football with, live with are all fairly peace loving. The second is perhaps linked in that their recent history is with Japan, which is horrific. So their focus of any hatred left is with Japan. I mean realistically how much hatred do people have with Europe? we have been at war with europe for thousands of years until recently. We remember Hitler because it was within our touching distance ie my grandfather fought. But in 200-300 years it will be much less prominent in our mentality. Also in regards to your comment about Hitler being fine in a couple hundread years, no he won't be, but even now we don't hold people age 20/30 or whatever in Germany responsible for the war??I do. When on holiday in Spain, if I bump into a German while queuing for the buffet i'll give him that look, that look that just says 'I don't like you and never will' Yeah but you're just a bellend moobs. Danny's made my day with that comment. He has to be a multi because nobody that stupid would be able to operate a computer. I wonder what he'd have said if i'd told him I in fact did have a time machine and had personally started the fires after nicking all the expensive jewels to flog in this century?
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Post by dannyc on Mar 1, 2011 13:34:29 GMT
I do. When on holiday in Spain, if I bump into a German while queuing for the buffet i'll give him that look, that look that just says 'I don't like you and never will' Yeah but you're just a bellend moobs. Danny's made my day with that comment. He has to be a multi because nobody that stupid would be able to operate a computer. I wonder what he'd have said if i'd told him I in fact did have a time machine and had personally started the fires after nicking all the expensive jewels to flog in this century? i was joking around you idiot i was merely stating it wasn't me or our fault for the past
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Post by Lone Gunman on Mar 1, 2011 14:24:04 GMT
Yeah but you're just a bellend moobs. Danny's made my day with that comment. He has to be a multi because nobody that stupid would be able to operate a computer. I wonder what he'd have said if i'd told him I in fact did have a time machine and had personally started the fires after nicking all the expensive jewels to flog in this century? i was joking around you idiot i was merely stating it wasn't me or our fault for the past It didn't sound like a joke to me danny. After all if it had been a joke you would have used this: and you didn't so you were obviously deadly serious.
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Post by boltonsmiley on Mar 1, 2011 14:29:29 GMT
I was talking to an African guy I know the other day , he said China is going into Africa big style, building roads etc but getting it's riches out and treating their workers very badly.
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Post by hht on Mar 1, 2011 16:01:56 GMT
I was talking to an African guy I know the other day , he said China is going into Africa big style, building roads etc but getting it's riches out and treating their workers very badly. Yeah I have been reading this too. I am guessing it is similar to why they are owning large parts of US dept. I don't know the ins and outs but in a simplistic way I guess its a bit like owing favours and the 'in my pocket' expression used in mob films. While China has the money ready it (i think) is buying stakes in countries for the future. And in terms of poor treatment, I guess its the same is been done to them. Wealth in the world is ultimately cyclical I guess (i am not a historian/economist). But it is interesting living in China at the moment to see the changes before my eyes.
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Post by hairy on Mar 1, 2011 16:13:12 GMT
While we were invading China to make them open up their ports to trade from the west (mostly opium) they were engaged in the most brutal civil war in history (in terms of numbers killed). We hardly killed any Chinese in comparison to how many they were killing themselves and our battles were with their rulers who were decadent and unpopular. With China's long history our part in it must look like a brief episode, one which was probably neccesary to start to take them away from the backwards, insular nation they had become.
On the other hand we did leave them with a bit of a smack habit.
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Post by stokeu on Mar 1, 2011 18:30:11 GMT
I presume you are advocating an increase for India, on the basis that overall spending has increased but India receives no further money.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Mar 1, 2011 18:41:30 GMT
While we were invading China to make them open up their ports to trade from the west (mostly opium) they were engaged in the most brutal civil war in history (in terms of numbers killed). We hardly killed any Chinese in comparison to how many they were killing themselves and our battles were with their rulers who were decadent and unpopular. With China's long history our part in it must look like a brief episode, one which was probably neccesary to start to take them away from the backwards, insular nation they had become. On the other hand we did leave them with a bit of a smack habit. Admittedly the taiping rebellion went on for a fair while and killed hundreds of thousands but the unpopular deposts who ruled the counry when we were caning them wanted to stop the opium trade and continued that rule for a fair time after our intervention. No matter how unpopular they were it doesn't really excuse the China wars which were basically armed conflicts designed to force the sale of opium onto the chinese pupulation. A pretty dark period in the history of the British Empire.
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Post by hairy on Mar 1, 2011 19:05:10 GMT
Wasnt us alone though, the french were involved as well and joined forces with us. Doesnt make what we did any better but someone was going to exploit china as it was ripe for the picking. Had stagnated after being one of the worlds most advanced civilizations, by the time the western powers got involved the country was being fought over by an Emperor who believed he ruled the world and that all the foreign powers were coming to pay homage to him and a madman who believed he was Jesus's brother.
We were only a small part of the massive upheavel which lasted for about 150 years in China. Suppose because it is such a large and populated country change (how ever big) can take for ever.
I dont feel to ashamed for us (in the past) looting then burning down their summer palace as it was in revenge for torturing to death prisoners of ours they had taken, apparently the locals werent to bothered at the time, doubt they saw much benefit from the place. Although intrestingly it was a Lord Elgin who ordered it it, a direct relative of the fella who nicked the Greeks marbles, that family must of had a thing for it.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Mar 1, 2011 19:40:36 GMT
Wasnt us alone though, the french were involved as well and joined forces with us. Doesnt make what we did any better but someone was going to exploit china as it was ripe for the picking. Had stagnated after being one of the worlds most advanced civilizations, by the time the western powers got involved the country was being fought over by an Emperor who believed he ruled the world and that all the foreign powers were coming to pay homage to him and a madman who believed he was Jesus's brother. We were only a small part of the massive upheavel which lasted for about 150 years in China. Suppose because it is such a large and populated country change (how ever big) can take for ever. I dont feel to ashamed for us (in the past) looting then burning down their summer palace as it was in revenge for torturing to death prisoners of ours they had taken, apparently the locals werent to bothered at the time, doubt they saw much benefit from the place. Although intrestingly it was a Lord Elgin who ordered it it, a direct relative of the fella who nicked the Greeks marbles, that family must of had a thing for it. To be fair though we had already killed a fair few of them in an unjustified war. One of the most immoral we had ever been involved in. There was no reason why we should have been 'opening up' china other than to allow or opium exports in. The French were involved to an extent during the arrow war and later during the boxer rebellion but so were the US and the Germans involved in the latter if i remember rightly. The torturing to death of about ten people, as unfortunate as it was that one of them, Bowlby, the Times journalist, was involved it was sod all compared to the hunderds we shot down and the wanton vandalism we committed along the way.
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Post by hairy on Mar 1, 2011 20:18:55 GMT
We were involved in loads of immoral wars, thats how we got an empire, thats how anyone gets an empire (including China). By the standards of the times (although their were people who were against it at the time) it was nothing spectacular. We also burnt down the white house during the nineteenth century, it was almost as if we trying to offend future global superpowers.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Mar 1, 2011 21:41:22 GMT
We were involved in loads of immoral wars, thats how we got an empire, thats how anyone gets an empire (including China). By the standards of the times (although their were people who were against it at the time) it was nothing spectacular. We also burnt down the white house during the nineteenth century, it was almost as if we trying to offend future global superpowers. Possibly. But the China Wars were fought in one pf the most immoral causes men have ever fought - to open up the way for mass addiction and death of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people. The immorality of other colonial wars pales into insignificance in the light of that.
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