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Post by d3d4 on Dec 10, 2017 18:39:49 GMT
Hi guys,
We have released our latest podcast looking at our late win over Donnie but I am frustrated that we never go with two up top. I think we should explore this option more as I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come.
Podcast
Hope you enjoy!
James
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Post by MJB on Dec 10, 2017 18:42:42 GMT
Yeah we’ve barely scored all season.
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Post by foley on Dec 10, 2017 19:32:50 GMT
Hi guys,
We have released our latest podcast looking at our late win over Donnie but I am frustrated that we never go with two up top. I think we should explore this option more as I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come.
Podcast
Hope you enjoy!
James We have scored 35 goals this season in the League. Only 2 have scored more. If anything it is the defence that needs to be tightened up a little. So I just don't get these sort of comments 'I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come'. Do you care to explain those comments? Three of the bottom 8 have conceded fewer than us? Looking at the table, doesn't it make more sense that you question the defense rather than the attack (on the basis that we are 8th and presumably are not rubbish at attack and defence??)
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Post by oufcyellows on Dec 10, 2017 19:34:31 GMT
We go 2 up top, and we take arguably our best player out of his best position. One where he has created and scored a lot from.
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Post by eraser on Dec 10, 2017 19:42:17 GMT
Hi guys,
We have released our latest podcast looking at our late win over Donnie but I am frustrated that we never go with two up top. I think we should explore this option more as I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come.
Podcast
Hope you enjoy!
James We have scored 35 goals this season in the League. Only 2 have scored more. If anything it is the defence that needs to be tightened up a little. So I just don't get these sort of comments 'I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come'. Do you care to explain those comments? Three of the bottom 8 have conceded fewer than us? Looking at the table, doesn't it make more sense that you question the defense rather than the attack (on the basis that we are 8th and presumably are not rubbish at attack and defence??) 21 goals and 16 points came from 6 games. The other 14 goals and points came from 15 games. We're very good up front occasionally so we do have a problem scoring consistently.
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Post by oufcyellows on Dec 10, 2017 19:46:50 GMT
We have scored 35 goals this season in the League. Only 2 have scored more. If anything it is the defence that needs to be tightened up a little. So I just don't get these sort of comments 'I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come'. Do you care to explain those comments? Three of the bottom 8 have conceded fewer than us? Looking at the table, doesn't it make more sense that you question the defense rather than the attack (on the basis that we are 8th and presumably are not rubbish at attack and defence??) 21 goals came from 6 games. The other 14 came from 15 games. We're very good up front occasionally so we do have a problem scoring consistently. Yet in 23 match we’ve only not scored 3 times. That’s pretty consistent
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Post by foley on Dec 10, 2017 19:49:45 GMT
We have scored 35 goals this season in the League. Only 2 have scored more. If anything it is the defence that needs to be tightened up a little. So I just don't get these sort of comments 'I am tired of the way we don't create enough or take the chances when they come'. 21 goals came from 6 games. The other 14 came from 15 games. We're very good up front occasionally so we do have a problem scoring consistently. Really? We have scored 8 more than Shrewsbury who are second. 9 more than Scunny who are 5th. But .. they have conceded 13 and 12 fewer than us. To me that shows fairly clearly that to be in the play offs we need to concede fewer and goals is not the big problem ....
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Post by eraser on Dec 10, 2017 19:51:45 GMT
21 goals came from 6 games. The other 14 came from 15 games. We're very good up front occasionally so we do have a problem scoring consistently. Yet in 23 match we’ve only not scored 3 times. That’s pretty consistent It's not consistent when you get 16 points from 6 games and 14 points from 15 games. That's poor form regardless of goals.
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Post by oufcyellows on Dec 10, 2017 19:53:35 GMT
Yet in 23 match we’ve only not scored 3 times. That’s pretty consistent It's not consistent when you get 16 points from 6 games and 14 points from 15 games. That's poor form regardless of goals. Correct but as foley is saying that’s down to us conceding lots. Our goals for record is auto promotion form
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Post by eraser on Dec 10, 2017 20:03:48 GMT
21 goals came from 6 games. The other 14 came from 15 games. We're very good up front occasionally so we do have a problem scoring consistently. Really? We have scored 8 more than Shrewsbury who are second. 9 more than Scunny who are 5th. But .. they have conceded 13 and 12 fewer than us. To me that shows fairly clearly that to be in the play offs we need to concede fewer and goals is not the big problem .... Banging in 4 goals every now and then makes the argument that we've scored more than a b or c irrelevant. It's only 3 points each time. I'm not saying we're very good defensively but I am saying that we don't put in enough consistent goal scoring matches. We're scraping through with the 1 up top scenario. Sometimes it works but Pep needs to realise it doesn't always and needs a plan B.
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Post by foley on Dec 10, 2017 20:28:33 GMT
Really? We have scored 8 more than Shrewsbury who are second. 9 more than Scunny who are 5th. But .. they have conceded 13 and 12 fewer than us. To me that shows fairly clearly that to be in the play offs we need to concede fewer and goals is not the big problem .... Banging in 4 goals every now and then makes the argument that we've scored more than a b or c irrelevant. It's only 3 points each time. I'm not saying we're very good defensively but I am saying that we don't put in enough consistent goal scoring matches. We're scraping through with the 1 up top scenario. Sometimes it works but Pep needs to realise it doesn't always and needs a plan B. Er we have 'banged in 4 goals' twice by my reckoning. I have seen Pep bring on Obika with Thomas at least twice. At Fleetwood I would suggest that by going for victory we actually lost. Both times it has not worked. Payne at times works as a second striker. As he should at home. We played two up front under Ian Atkins I think. The problem was that we had 5 defenders and two defensive midfield players. Under CW we normally had two strikers but often didn't win at home. So I reckon that the key thing is that we get enough men forwards. Whether we play one up front or two or three, then we need to get enough upfront. Somebody on RO on Saturday suggested that Pep has clearly tried to stop us conceding as many (after we started leaking goals) and so we are sitting a lot deeper. In my view from letting in very few goals at the start of the season where we were winning, we have conceded far too many. Which is why Pep is right in my view trying to concede fewer.
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Post by holdsteady on Dec 10, 2017 20:55:48 GMT
The injuries in defence have probably wrecked our season, and led us to play deeper and more defensively/cautiously. Raglan, Ribeiro and Nelson have all had bad/very bad injuries, with Tiendalli and Williamson also getting injured, its led to is conceding more, plus if we go hung ho and push up with our old defence we will concede loads.
We have scored enough, it's just that the shape of the team has been forced us by necessity perhaps more than design now.
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Post by smilingbo on Dec 10, 2017 21:42:35 GMT
If you look at the stats produced by experimental 361, you’ll see that we’re consistently creating good (high expected) chances. Attacking is not our problem, it’s our defence, or how we don’t control the middle of the park.
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Post by MJB on Dec 10, 2017 23:19:18 GMT
If you look at the stats produced by experimental 361, you’ll see that we’re consistently creating good (high expected) chances. Attacking is not our problem, it’s our defence, or how we don’t control the middle of the park. No it’s not. Everyone knows it’s because we don’t play a classic 4-4-2, have too many foreign players and don’t leave a man up when defending corners. If we fixed these three areas, we’d be in the Champions League by Christmas.
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Post by paulbeasley on Dec 10, 2017 23:58:23 GMT
"Why can't we ever go with two upfront" - have to say that's a daft question. We CAN go two up front. But Pep opts not to. Absolutely correctly in my opinion. That approach is largely outdated.
Wigan have scored 1.9 goals per game, Blackburn 1.85 and then third best on 1.666 goals per game are three teams. One of those is Oxford United. We ain't doing bad.
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Post by Yellow River on Dec 11, 2017 8:52:24 GMT
I’m certainly not against playing one up front, but the problem of isolation arises when we are forced to play an ageing back 4 which isn’t the quickest and drop deeper and deeper.
Knock on affect is that the midfield 2 can get overrun and Wes is very isolated.
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Post by dabigfella on Dec 11, 2017 8:59:38 GMT
Playing only one up front can work if you have the player capable of taking on that role. We have only one on the books and that's Wes Thomas. He gets injured and we are in trouble.
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Post by RCYellowRC on Dec 11, 2017 9:31:34 GMT
Playing only one up front can work if you have the player capable of taking on that role. We have only one on the books and that's Wes Thomas. He gets injured and we are in trouble. Obika took the role on pretty well in last 15 on Saturday, in my opinon. He strong,quick and skilful but lacks the poachers instinct of Thomas. They are both handfuls for defenders and I'm happy with either up top. I would like too see 2 up top,but i do not think this will happen with Payne in the side or if we recruit 1 more decent CB and a Full back/winger in January so we could then go to a 3 at the back.
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Post by highlights on Dec 11, 2017 9:42:14 GMT
I've posted about this before - copy and pasted for those who haven't seen:
- - -
I was having a think about Payne recently with some colleagues.
The long and short of it is, the team is shaped to fit around him. Now when he's playing well, that's fine. He's clearly the best technical footballer at the club.
But it's become apparent that quite often he either a) has a bad game or b) teams adapt a 'stop Payne at all costs' system. Then it gets problematic.
Essentially the only role Payne can play effectively is ACM - or a second forward - let's examine how that plays out across the team:
- He needs a big forward alongside him. Someone to buy him space. Either someone stretching the line, running off the shoulder (Wes and GVK) or an aerial battering ram (Obika). - If we were to play 4-4-2 Payne would have to do a lot more dirty work in a midfield pairing, which wouldn't be effective. The only way around this would be a midfield 3 - which means no wingers. (Considering our options right now, I wouldn't mind seeing a 4-3-1-2)
So when Payne plays, we have to play certain type of striker alongside him, to make space for him, and we have to play at least two midfielders behind him. It sort of ties Pep's hands a bit.
The brave thing to do is to drop Payne from time to time when required. Then we could have a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 or more or less anything you want. But when people ask: 'why do we always play one up top?' the short answer is we have to if we want to get the best out of Payne.
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Post by ciaranjonlucas on Dec 12, 2017 12:58:47 GMT
3-5-2 when Raglan is fit. Henry at RWB. Two strikers, don't need to drop Payne.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Dec 12, 2017 13:10:10 GMT
Man City played without a striker for 30 mins on Sunday, and Jesus is hardly a target man when he was on the pitch. Other than a tradition of playing 442 and people getting nervous we aren't playing it, I don't see a massive issue that isn't there if we don't play well anyway.
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Post by shosho on Dec 12, 2017 13:18:03 GMT
Lets face it, Thomas is a poacher.
Pep has him doing far more for the team than he previously has...pressing the defense and holding the ball up.
The above has improved, Thomas brings players in to the game well, but I wouldn't say the ball 'sticks to him'.
Its clear, allow Thomas to operate in the box, give him the supply, we will score further and play to his strengths.
Ricardinho is currently providing the best delivery in to the box. It would be tempting to push him further forward, possible Ruffels LB cover, but could be tampering for the sake of it. I know the 'X coming from deep' argument is there also.
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Post by MJB on Dec 12, 2017 13:42:20 GMT
Lets face it, Thomas is a poacher. Pep has him doing far more for the team than he previously has...pressing the defense and holding the ball up. The above has improved, Thomas brings players in to the game well, but I wouldn't say the ball 'sticks to him'. Its clear, allow Thomas to operate in the box, give him the supply, we will score further and play to his strengths. Ricardinho is currently providing the best delivery in to the box. It would be tempting to push him further forward, possible Ruffels LB cover, but could be tampering for the sake of it. I know the 'X coming from deep' argument is there also. Much as I love the guy, I don’t think Ricardinho has the pace or mobility to play further up the pitch. It’s not often he goes bombing up and down the line. Plus he’s hardly getting younger - he already has the look of one with a tough paper-round in his youth!.
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Post by shosho on Dec 12, 2017 14:05:47 GMT
Lets face it, Thomas is a poacher. Pep has him doing far more for the team than he previously has...pressing the defense and holding the ball up. The above has improved, Thomas brings players in to the game well, but I wouldn't say the ball 'sticks to him'. Its clear, allow Thomas to operate in the box, give him the supply, we will score further and play to his strengths. Ricardinho is currently providing the best delivery in to the box. It would be tempting to push him further forward, possible Ruffels LB cover, but could be tampering for the sake of it. I know the 'X coming from deep' argument is there also. Much as I love the guy, I don’t think Ricardinho has the pace or mobility to play further up the pitch. It’s not often he goes bombing up and down the line. Plus he’s hardly getting younger - he already has the look of one with a tough paper-round in his youth!. The comment wasn't around his age etc, simply that he has been delivering the best quality in to the box in recent times. Decent delivery = brings out the best in Thomas = no need for additional striker.
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Post by MJB on Dec 12, 2017 14:58:57 GMT
Much as I love the guy, I don’t think Ricardinho has the pace or mobility to play further up the pitch. It’s not often he goes bombing up and down the line. Plus he’s hardly getting younger - he already has the look of one with a tough paper-round in his youth!. The comment wasn't around his age etc, simply that he has been delivering the best quality in to the box in recent times. Decent delivery = brings out the best in Thomas = no need for additional striker. He’s certainly the best crosser at the club. Hard and fast in that area of uncertainty between the goalie and the centre-backs. He’s a pleasure to watch each week and Pep was right to say that he would become a fan’s favourite.
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