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Post by Paul Cannell on Sept 22, 2017 13:54:00 GMT
Interestingly I'm in shanghai this week with work and have to say it's surprised me how "communist china" under a one party rule has so much individual freedom and such a good quality of life. Which suggests that political machinery is almost irrelevant when matched up against market forces. And it's refreshing not to listen to politicians bickering in hope of power. Not a view I ever expected to hold, But given your past deluded ramblings not a view that should surprise anyone. Ask the Uighurs, Tibetans, Christians and Falun Gong about individual freedom. Politicians who 'bicker' in China are removed. The gweilo who went to a nightclub and swallowed everything is on the forum.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Sept 22, 2017 14:51:34 GMT
Interestingly I'm in shanghai this week with work and have to say it's surprised me how "communist china" under a one party rule has so much individual freedom and such a good quality of life. Which suggests that political machinery is almost irrelevant when matched up against market forces. And it's refreshing not to listen to politicians bickering in hope of power. Not a view I ever expected to hold, This is the same country that has a huge firewall to try to prevent any dissenting views coming in (or details of non-approved news going out), is quite happy to bulldoze whole communities to make room for development, annexes neighbouring countries, ignores human rights and that 'disappears' anyone who looks like they might upset the status quo? 'Individual freedom' to do what the state allows you to do in such constrained circumstances is not freedom. I expect the trains run on time though.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 22, 2017 18:39:47 GMT
So the Leaning Power of Trisa has requested a 2 year extension to Brexit. Can well and truly kicked down the road?
I'm surprised the Daily Fail and Torygraph websites are still operating due to the amount of froth and bile published! Claims of betrayal and treason are boardering on hysterical.
No matter how Brexit is dressed up in 2021 (at the earliest), I don't think we'll see much fundamental change to the current existing arrangements. Those in charge realize what side our bread is buttered, from now on it's purely a face-saving exercise. What a f*cking depressing unnecessary waste of time and energy.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 22, 2017 18:49:10 GMT
Apologies Ricky I was trying to be satirical. It was my on-going reaction against the claims that nobody in government or the EU has any clue what to do with Brexit. Of course, the remainers can take the opportunity to say 'I told you so', but does this help that much? We may have missed the time for good sense and reason when the first referendum took place, but I would suggest that we surely need some of that stuff now, if nothing more as a damage limitation exercise. Or perhaps it could just drift on and on being unresolved for decades to come and people lose interest and we never quite leave. This would not fulfil the democratic requirement but it might just work. No? Interestingly I'm in shanghai this week with work and have to say it's surprised me how "communist china" under a one party rule has so much individual freedom and such a good quality of life. "Good quality of life" - this is is sarcasm, right? Ever experienced the traffic in Beijing? For days on end people are confined indoors due to pollution. Chinese friend-of-a-friend living in Finland recently passed away following lung cancer in his mid-20s having smoked Chinese cigarettes heavily. God knows what's in those! Husband of a colleague in Beijing who was fighting fit recently had major kidney failure - she blames chemicals in the water. An absolutely hazardous waste land and ecological disaster of a country.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Sept 22, 2017 19:19:45 GMT
So the Leaning Power of Trisa has requested a 2 year extension to Brexit. Can well and truly kicked down the road? I'm surprised the Daily Fail and Torygraph websites are still operating due to the amount of froth and bile published! Claims of betrayal and treason are boardering on hysterical. No matter how Brexit is dressed up in 2021 (at the earliest), I don't think we'll see much fundamental change to the current existing arrangements. Those in charge realize what side our bread is buttered, from now on it's purely a face-saving exercise. What a f*cking depressing unnecessary waste of time and energy. You entirely miss the point. I suspect you're one of those sandal-wearing, pinko leftie wankers that williammuir so accurately described above. Don't you understand? WE'VE TAKEN BACK CONTROL!!! And, as a bonus, loads of foreigners are f*cking off back home. Local farmers here in Lincolnshire are already whining about not having enough workers to pick their winter crops.
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Post by tonyw on Sept 22, 2017 20:50:25 GMT
So the Leaning Power of Trisa has requested a 2 year extension to Brexit. Can well and truly kicked down the road? I'm surprised the Daily Fail and Torygraph websites are still operating due to the amount of froth and bile published! Claims of betrayal and treason are boardering on hysterical. No matter how Brexit is dressed up in 2021 (at the earliest), I don't think we'll see much fundamental change to the current existing arrangements. Those in charge realize what side our bread is buttered, from now on it's purely a face-saving exercise. What a f*cking depressing unnecessary waste of time and energy. In some ways, although I would disagree with them on just about any issue on any subject, I can see why the Daily Mail are mad. They want a 'we voted leave, let's just leave and sort it out' approach, and what May is clearly now set on delivering is a 'softly, softly, let's just make sure we don't p*ss off corporate Britain' Brexit. Course, this is what happens when you ask such a general question as "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?", and have absolutely no specificity on the who, what, when and how. During the campaign, I said on several occasions that Farage, Gove, Johnson and co. needed to present a roadmap to the voters on exactly what their vision of Brexit looked like. At the time, I said that because I thought it was only reasonable that the electorate should be as informed as possible as to what they're voting on (and, probably, I thought it might put enough people off that we'd end up remaining). But now the fact that they didn't do so is coming back to bite them hard. Because the most prominent Leave campaigners have lost all control of the narrative and process of Brexit to a bumbling and timid government that's way less committed to it than they were.
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Post by m on Sept 22, 2017 21:17:45 GMT
2021 is fanciful in the extreme.
As far as I can tell we've agreed precisely nothing so far.
Maybe it's like one of them Rolf Harris drawings? All comes together right at the end. We all know what happened to him though...
Massive (and massively expensive) kick in the bollocks for everyone I'd say - remainers and leavers united at last.
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 23, 2017 4:41:28 GMT
Interestingly I'm in shanghai this week with work and have to say it's surprised me how "communist china" under a one party rule has so much individual freedom and such a good quality of life. Which suggests that political machinery is almost irrelevant when matched up against market forces. And it's refreshing not to listen to politicians bickering in hope of power. Not a view I ever expected to hold, But given your past deluded ramblings not a view that should surprise anyone. Ask the Uighurs, Tibetans, Christians and Falun Gong about individual freedom. Politicians who 'bicker' in China are removed. The gweilo who went to a nightclub and swallowed everything is on the forum. Delighted you've jumped down my throat in your usual pleasant manner. If you want to make the world a better place hold the mirror up and ask whether that tone was necessary just because I have a view either don't understand or disagree with. Anyway point being having not spent much time out there I expected something far more authoritarian and oppressive. The day to day lifestyle seemed a complete equivalent to western life. That doesn't mean it would be for everybody, or elsewhere, but I think the image we've created in our media lends itself to being a dark enemy. Spending time with the locals, talking to them about the differences (some of whom had grown up in the uk incidentally),experiencing the reality. Given the west is increasingly authoritarian I think the paths are colliding in terms of reality over the next few decades especially as the market forces blow china wide open. And I can tell you the courtesy of the locals, their worth ethic, and academic showing suggests the future is almost certainly out east. I didn't say it was perfect or ideal. I recognize there are plenty of issues. But as I say, I was surprised at just how different it was to the western media portrayal.
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 23, 2017 4:45:31 GMT
Interestingly I'm in shanghai this week with work and have to say it's surprised me how "communist china" under a one party rule has so much individual freedom and such a good quality of life. Which suggests that political machinery is almost irrelevant when matched up against market forces. And it's refreshing not to listen to politicians bickering in hope of power. Not a view I ever expected to hold, This is the same country that has a huge firewall to try to prevent any dissenting views coming in (or details of non-approved news going out), is quite happy to bulldoze whole communities to make room for development, annexes neighbouring countries, ignores human rights and that 'disappears' anyone who looks like they might upset the status quo? 'Individual freedom' to do what the state allows you to do in such constrained circumstances is not freedom. I expect the trains run on time though. Understand your angle and that was very much my perception. The firewall was easily circumvented. Isn't crossrail bulldozing through communities? Aren't there a fair few hundred banned political organizations in this country?
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Post by Pete Burrett on Sept 23, 2017 8:03:47 GMT
FOLLOWING DAY EDIT - Hmmm, maybe I'd better make it clear that my post above was an attempt at irony and is in no way critical of Helsinki or his views, which I find I agree with 100%. Our politicians are already backing down, presumably because behind the populist bluster they know where the UK's best interests, and future, lie.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 23, 2017 8:12:43 GMT
FOLLOWING DAY EDIT - Hmmm, maybe I'd better make it clear that my post above was an attempt at irony and is in no way critical of Helsinki or his views, which I find I agree with 100%. Our politicians are already backing down, presumably because behind the populist bluster they know where the UK's best interests, and future, lie. I got it Pete! That said, "sandal-wearing, pinko lefty w*nker" is perhaps not a million miles away from the truth! Well, at least in the eyes of the 52%.
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Post by flean on Sept 23, 2017 8:35:25 GMT
FOLLOWING DAY EDIT - Hmmm, maybe I'd better make it clear that my post above was an attempt at irony and is in no way critical of Helsinki or his views, which I find I agree with 100%. Our politicians are already backing down, presumably because behind the populist bluster they know where the UK's best interests, and future, lie. I got it Pete! That said, "sandal-wearing, pinko lefty w*nker" is perhaps not a million miles away from the truth! Well, at least in the eyes of the 52%. You're just a leftist expat who should have no say in how the UK is governed.
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 23, 2017 8:45:00 GMT
I got it Pete! That said, "sandal-wearing, pinko lefty w*nker" is perhaps not a million miles away from the truth! Well, at least in the eyes of the 52%. You're just a leftist expat who should have no say in how the UK is governed. You live in GERMANY, you are complicit in the underhand expansion of the 4th Reich by Federal EU means. Traitor!
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Post by bashamwonderland on Sept 23, 2017 10:12:02 GMT
Sometimes for a laugh I go on the Guardian or Independent website and look at Brexit comments. Denial and wobbly bottom lips all over the shop.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Sept 23, 2017 11:17:09 GMT
But given your past deluded ramblings not a view that should surprise anyone. Ask the Uighurs, Tibetans, Christians and Falun Gong about individual freedom. Politicians who 'bicker' in China are removed. The gweilo who went to a nightclub and swallowed everything is on the forum. Delighted you've jumped down my throat in your usual pleasant manner. If you want to make the world a better place hold the mirror up and ask whether that tone was necessary just because I have a view either don't understand or disagree with. Anyway point being having not spent much time out there I expected something far more authoritarian and oppressive. The day to day lifestyle seemed a complete equivalent to western life. That doesn't mean it would be for everybody, or elsewhere, but I think the image we've created in our media lends itself to being a dark enemy. Spending time with the locals, talking to them about the differences (some of whom had grown up in the uk incidentally),experiencing the reality. Given the west is increasingly authoritarian I think the paths are colliding in terms of reality over the next few decades especially as the market forces blow china wide open. And I can tell you the courtesy of the locals, their worth ethic, and academic showing suggests the future is almost certainly out east. I didn't say it was perfect or ideal. I recognize there are plenty of issues. But as I say, I was surprised at just how different it was to the western media portrayal. Ah, bless. I reacted mostly to your habitual tone of 'the local lad who made it big but is still one of us and knows a thing or two' and I have no interest to debate your pretentious rectitude because the market makes you a winner (today). The tone was appropriate to the circumstance. Why do you regard 'want[ing] to make the world a better place' in a pejorative sense? Still, that post threatens Basham with the fastest reverse of the year - congrats! And by the way - Josiah Wedgwood would never have said "especially as the market forces blow china wide open."
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Post by flean on Sept 23, 2017 11:47:40 GMT
You're just a leftist expat who should have no say in how the UK is governed. You live in GERMANY, you are complicit in the underhand expansion of the 4th Reich by Federal EU means. Traitor! FAKE NEWS! We don't want to expand. We just want your financial services and car factories.
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 23, 2017 12:11:21 GMT
Delighted you've jumped down my throat in your usual pleasant manner. If you want to make the world a better place hold the mirror up and ask whether that tone was necessary just because I have a view either don't understand or disagree with. Anyway point being having not spent much time out there I expected something far more authoritarian and oppressive. The day to day lifestyle seemed a complete equivalent to western life. That doesn't mean it would be for everybody, or elsewhere, but I think the image we've created in our media lends itself to being a dark enemy. Spending time with the locals, talking to them about the differences (some of whom had grown up in the uk incidentally),experiencing the reality. Given the west is increasingly authoritarian I think the paths are colliding in terms of reality over the next few decades especially as the market forces blow china wide open. And I can tell you the courtesy of the locals, their worth ethic, and academic showing suggests the future is almost certainly out east. I didn't say it was perfect or ideal. I recognize there are plenty of issues. But as I say, I was surprised at just how different it was to the western media portrayal. Ah, bless. I reacted mostly to your habitual tone of 'the local lad who made it big but is still one of us and knows a thing or two' and I have no interest to debate your pretentious rectitude because the market makes you a winner (today). The tone was appropriate to the circumstance. Why do you regard 'want[ing] to make the world a better place' in a pejorative sense? Still, that post threatens Basham with the fastest reverse of the year - congrats! And by the way - Josiah Wedgwood would never have said "especially as the market forces blow china wide open." I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think you know me or anything about me but I'll refrain from making comments back about you. We're both Oxford fans and I've no reason to be hostile to you but would be grateful if you could be less snipey. Not interested.
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Post by gofish2 on Sept 23, 2017 12:16:30 GMT
....Cannell, snipey, whatever do you mean? A word of advice Ricky; when PC throws a grenade your way, just take the pin out and throw it back.
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Post by makv on Sept 23, 2017 12:19:25 GMT
FOLLOWING DAY EDIT - Hmmm, maybe I'd better make it clear that my post above was an attempt at irony and is in no way critical of Helsinki or his views, which I find I agree with 100%. Our politicians are already backing down, presumably because behind the populist bluster they know where the UK's best interests, and future, lie. I got it Pete! That said, "sandal-wearing, pinko lefty w*nker" is perhaps not a million miles away from the truth! Well, at least in the eyes of the 52%. I hope your sandals are yellow and blue, at least
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Post by makv on Sept 23, 2017 12:20:13 GMT
Sometimes for a laugh I go on the Guardian or Independent website and look at Brexit comments. Denial and wobbly bottom lips all over the shop. Sometimes, for a laugh, I read your posts
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 23, 2017 12:23:01 GMT
....Cannell, snipey, whatever do you mean? A word of advice Ricky; when PC throws a your way grenade, just take the pin out and throw it back. I did the argumentative stuff on here back in the early noughties with Myles, fat Andy, Methven, Brian wilsterman, etc, I'm not interested in making enemies on the internet anymore. Life's too short! (But thanks)
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Post by gofish2 on Sept 23, 2017 12:39:04 GMT
I used to have some moments with JCR (whatshisface) Brian Wilsterman and Trutheteller (to name a few) The thing is, there's quite a lot of posturing amongst the wit and I am finding this pseudo intellectual pomposity boring. Like you I have no interest in making enemies and I am sure that if I met many on here I would like them. That however, doesn't mean I have to like what they write.
Some of the posts on this thread are interesting and clearly informed, I just don't understand the need for mixing them with personal attack. Ahh, that's better!
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 23, 2017 13:07:47 GMT
Sometimes for a laugh I go on the Guardian or Independent website and look at Brexit comments. Denial and wobbly bottom lips all over the shop. Not half as funny as the doyen of the swivel-eyed Brexiteers Farage's reaction to May's speech... He's positively raging!
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Post by rickyotto on Sept 23, 2017 13:08:42 GMT
I used to have some moments with JCR (whatshisface) Brian Wilsterman and Trutheteller (to name a few) The thing is, there's quite a lot of posturing amongst the wit and I am finding this pseudo intellectual pomposity boring. Like you I have no interest in making enemies and I am sure that if I met many on here I would like them. That however, doesn't mean I have to like what they write. Some of the posts on this thread are interesting and clearly informed, I just don't understand the need for mixing them with personal attack. Ahh, that's better! Whatever happened to Jcr? King of the arguments. I knowwilsterman became pottersrightboot
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Post by gofish2 on Sept 23, 2017 13:21:18 GMT
I think JCR may have graduated and become a grown up
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Post by bashamwonderland on Sept 25, 2017 18:01:21 GMT
Sometimes for a laugh I go on the Guardian or Independent website and look at Brexit comments. Denial and wobbly bottom lips all over the shop. Sometimes, for a laugh, I read your posts Thnx M80
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Post by cj on Sept 27, 2017 8:02:12 GMT
The experts all seemed to have a vested interest. Here's a thought if everybody changed their minds the result would still be 52-48 out Having mulled this over the LEAVE vote won 52-48 So if the 52 changed their mind and supported REMAIN and the 48 changed theirs and supported LEAVE surely the result would be 52-48 for REMAIN?
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Post by Pete Burrett on Sept 27, 2017 8:36:41 GMT
I thought the same cj, but maybe it was just poorly worded by Peter. I THINK he meant that whatever the result of this second forum vote, it won't change the original referendum decision, so doesn't really matter.
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Post by flean on Sept 27, 2017 9:49:41 GMT
220% US tariff for Bombardier. Is this the "special relationship" that Brexiteers were banging on about?
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Post by helsinkiyellow on Sept 27, 2017 10:07:35 GMT
220% US tariff for Bombardier. Is this the "special relationship" that Brexiteers were banging on about? Interesting how a trade dispute between US & Canada could have such an impact - I thought we had "taken back control"? A snapshot of how trade agreements outside of EU really work perhaps...
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