|
Post by tonyw on Sept 21, 2017 18:14:35 GMT
Don't think anyone imagined Brexit would end up being quite such a muddle. Sure, there was talk of economic doom but nobody seemed to predict the gargantuan difficulties in the leaving process itself, something which can retrospectively reinforce the remain viewpoint but also something which can potentially damage UK prospects. Seriously, Winchester - go back and read the EU In or Out? thread (I accept - it's a long 'un!) There's post upon post upon post from people that pointed out how insanely difficult it was going to be to extricate ourselves from the EU, and how ill-prepared either side was to negotiate a divorce of that complexity (I think at one point, I put the over/under for a successful exit + free trade deal at 10 years. I still think that's about right). I think it's the other way around - although there were lots of predictions in either direction, correctly forecasting the economic fallout of Brexit was, and still is, exceedingly difficult. Predicting, however, that the process was going to be a grand display of befuddlement, incompetence and chest-beating was the easiest call in the world - and many, many people made it.
|
|
|
Post by williammuir (banned) on Sept 21, 2017 18:18:42 GMT
you cannot have a 2nd referendum because we live in a democracy not a vote until you winracy
|
|
|
Post by gofish2 on Sept 21, 2017 20:05:33 GMT
you cannot have a 2nd referendum because we live in a democracy not a vote until you winracy True, except the misrepresentation of facts in respect of leaving EU (also known as lies) is an important consideration in the democratic process
|
|
|
Post by oufcyellows on Sept 21, 2017 20:18:49 GMT
you cannot have a 2nd referendum because we live in a democracy not a vote until you winracy True, except the misrepresentation of facts in respect of leaving EU (also known as lies) is an important consideration in the democratic process There were lies from both sides. Unless world war 3 has kicked off đ
|
|
|
Post by williammuir (banned) on Sept 21, 2017 20:59:48 GMT
you cannot have a 2nd referendum because we live in a democracy not a vote until you winracy True, except the misrepresentation of facts in respect of leaving EU (also known as lies) is an important consideration in the democratic process lies what lies if the remoaners bothered to get off there f*cking arses and vote maybe they would of won if they bothered to do there own research but no most commy pinko lefties just listen to there bible i.e BBC for everything if the BBC said jump of a cliff every lefty w*nker would do, if only
|
|
|
Post by m on Sept 21, 2017 21:23:09 GMT
True, except the misrepresentation of facts in respect of leaving EU (also known as lies) is an important consideration in the democratic process lies what lies if the remoaners bothered to get off there f*cking arses and vote maybe they would of won if they bothered to do there own research but no most commy pinko lefties just listen to there bible i.e BBC for everything if the BBC said jump of a cliff every lefty w*nker would do, if only Some good points there.
|
|
|
Post by Pete Burrett on Sept 21, 2017 21:48:35 GMT
True, except the misrepresentation of facts in respect of leaving EU (also known as lies) is an important consideration in the democratic process lies what lies if the remoaners bothered to get off there f*cking arses and vote maybe they would of won if they bothered to do there own research but no most commy pinko lefties just listen to there bible i.e BBC for everything if the BBC said jump of a cliff every lefty w*nker would do, if only Best thing I've read in ages. I always knew everyone at the Beeb was a communist. I'm off to storm Broadcasting House ....
|
|
|
Post by winchesterox on Sept 21, 2017 21:56:25 GMT
Don't think anyone imagined Brexit would end up being quite such a muddle. Sure, there was talk of economic doom but nobody seemed to predict the gargantuan difficulties in the leaving process itself, something which can retrospectively reinforce the remain viewpoint but also something which can potentially damage UK prospects. Seriously, Winchester - go back and read the EU In or Out? thread (I accept - it's a long 'un!) There's post upon post upon post from people that pointed out how insanely difficult it was going to be to extricate ourselves from the EU, and how ill-prepared either side was to negotiate a divorce of that complexity (I think at one point, I put the over/under for a successful exit + free trade deal at 10 years. I still think that's about right). I think it's the other way around - although there were lots of predictions in either direction, correctly forecasting the economic fallout of Brexit was, and still is, exceedingly difficult. Predicting, however, that the process was going to be a grand display of befuddlement, incompetence and chest-beating was the easiest call in the world - and many, many people made it. I feel so stupid now for thinking that the EU and British negotiators would have sufficient nous to achieve a divorce within a reasonable timeframe (i.e. Some way short of 10 years). The fact that they are all bumbling incompetents who continue to be ill-prepared no matter what, is a major worry actually. What the heck can we possibly hope for now? A second referendum should be worded as follows. "Ok so we've had a go and as suspected we cannot seem to get out heads around it at all. To be honest it looks like it's going to be too much hassle to leave the EU. Would you like to vote to remain? Yes (It's obvious) or no (I'm an idiot)?
|
|
|
Post by whingit on Sept 21, 2017 23:20:19 GMT
You do make some good points Mr Muir. Perhaps you can explain though, why the old, communist, former politics chief of the BBC now works for Mrs May? FWIW, I think the BBC is great. There's a mixture of editorially right and left programmes, which is fine because complete impartiality is impossible. Also, despite being a right-wing climate change denier, Andrew Neil is an excellent, impartial interviewer.
I get the argument for the second referendum, I'd vote to remain if there was one, but there probably isn't going to be another one, and that's fine. The vote said nothing about the details of Brexit, that's for the government to decide. Do understand why people would want to vote on the final agreement when everything is on the table, though.
|
|
|
Post by maddogmickey on Sept 22, 2017 3:48:40 GMT
I got it wrong. I voted remain as I thought our politicians were too incompetent to run our own affairs and that we were better off in. Plus I thought there would be some truth in project fear.
I was wrong, yes our political class are a shambles but the EU side have proved themselves capricious, illogical and nasty. These clowns are the ones who have supposedly been cutting our trade deals for the last 40 years! No wonder the 'big two' of China be the US remain outsideany free trade agreement.
Plus project fear was entirely wrong. All of it lies. Every word. The exchange rate went negative when Carney reacted, unnecessarily, to the vote but that has been it. I have been shocked how well the economy has done.
I can't believe what a fool I was for voting remain and felt so smug too. I'd be furious if there's another referendum causing more uncertainty and I would 100% be voting out and stay out next time. I was stitched up last time by economists, the BBC and Cameron/Osbourne and will never vote conservative again.
|
|
|
Post by winchesterox on Sept 22, 2017 4:56:02 GMT
No no mdm, you were right to vote remain. Look at the embarrassing state of affairs we now in. Can't seem to rely on anyone in a position of responsibility in this ludicrous Brexit fiasco. They all nuts my friend, totally nuts.
|
|
|
Post by flean on Sept 22, 2017 5:29:38 GMT
There shouldn't be another referendum, full stop. The Conservatives created this, and it's up to them (with a little bit of help from their Ulster 'friends') to make the best of it.
As far as I can see, the Eu has made their position clear from the start (no trade talks until certain other issues have been ironed out) and it's 100% the Conservatives that are failing in the negotiations.
|
|
|
Post by rickyotto on Sept 22, 2017 7:05:58 GMT
No no mdm, you were right to vote remain. Look at the embarrassing state of affairs we now in. Can't seem to rely on anyone in a position of responsibility in this ludicrous Brexit fiasco. They all nuts my friend, totally nuts. It's a negotiation ....what state of affairs are we in? Emotionally charged but short on fact.
|
|
|
Post by Gary Baldi on Sept 22, 2017 7:44:42 GMT
How would we even agree on what the question would be on a 2nd referendum?
|
|
|
Post by makv on Sept 22, 2017 7:51:12 GMT
How would we even agree on what the question would be on a 2nd referendum? Would you like things to stay as they are instead?
|
|
|
Post by Gary Baldi on Sept 22, 2017 7:54:26 GMT
How would we even agree on what the question would be on a 2nd referendum? Would you like things to stay as they are instead? The Labour party can't agree on what Brexit is - more uturns than May in the last election. The Conservatives are in their usual split party mode. With that in mind, yes, staying as we are after the last vote is the best cause of action. The fact Dennis Skinner voted against the Labour recently says a lot.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Sept 22, 2017 8:00:12 GMT
Things are what they are. It's in the nature of things, Mr V. As a question to the re-referendum I suggest the following:
Option 1: Try to get the genie back in the bottle Option 2: Keep calm and carry on
Captures the essential spirit of our plucky little land all pulling together for diversity.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Sept 22, 2017 8:18:32 GMT
lies what lies if the remoaners bothered to get off there f*cking arses and vote maybe they would of won if they bothered to do there own research but no most commy pinko lefties just listen to there bible i.e BBC for everything if the BBC said jump of a cliff every lefty w*nker would do, if only Best thing I've read in ages. I always knew everyone at the Beeb was a communist. I'm off to storm Broadcasting House .... If you always knew that why are you off to storm Broadcasting House only now? Is Mr Muir the inspirational leader that I fear he is? "The Mowsley off are daze" as he might (Mr Muir) himself say?
|
|
|
Post by makv on Sept 22, 2017 8:23:54 GMT
Would you like things to stay as they are instead? The Labour party can't agree on what Brexit is - more uturns than May in the last election. The Conservatives are in their usual split party mode. With that in mind, yes, staying as we are after the last vote is the best cause of action. The fact Dennis Skinner voted against the Labour recently says a lot. I was actually proposing that as the referendum question. Maybe a small change: âWould you like things to stay as they are after all?â
|
|
|
Post by Pete Burrett on Sept 22, 2017 8:27:37 GMT
Best thing I've read in ages. I always knew everyone at the Beeb was a communist. I'm off to storm Broadcasting House .... If you always knew that why are you off to storm Broadcasting House only now? Is Mr Muir the inspirational leader that I fear he is? "The Mowsley off are daze" as he might (Mr Muir) himself say? I've been thinking about doing it for a while, but needed a catalyst to get me off the sofa. William has provided this. He's right about the lefty-pinko-commie Beeb. Just look at the evidence: before every election they show a so-called 'party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party', which is always little more than a pro-left wing tirade. Just the other day they did a piece scoffing at democratically elected right-winger Mr Trump. More than once they've given airtime to pinko-Muslim-darkie Sadiq Khan.
|
|
|
Post by ZeroTheHero on Sept 22, 2017 8:49:59 GMT
Well I voted to remain (probably because I watched Pointless on the pinko commie leftie liberal BBC or something) and thoroughly wish we hadn't voted to leave. I won't rehash the arguments here.
But vote to leave we did (even though we didn't actually know what we were voting for - only what we were voting against) and the decision is made. We have burned our boats now, so hoping to rewind is pointless (see - the BBC again!).
It has become obvious that the politicians (of all sorts) have absolutely not got the faintest idea how leaving is going to happen in any orderly way though, and trying to get alternative trade deals by cozying up to the likes of Trump is vomit making. The chances of it all coming together in the next 18 months are very slim indeed - and none of us know how it is going to pan out.
|
|
|
Post by flean on Sept 22, 2017 9:56:50 GMT
May asking for more time in exchange for continuing to pay (sensible in my opinion, but might p*ss off the hardcore right.) Not sure why they aren't finally getting around to the status of Eu / UK residents though.
|
|
|
Post by Gary Baldi on Sept 22, 2017 12:24:43 GMT
The Labour party can't agree on what Brexit is - more uturns than May in the last election. The Conservatives are in their usual split party mode. With that in mind, yes, staying as we are after the last vote is the best cause of action. The fact Dennis Skinner voted against the Labour recently says a lot. I was actually proposing that as the referendum question. Maybe a small change: âWould you like things to stay as they are after all?â As in stay in or be in this muddle?
|
|
|
Post by gofish2 on Sept 22, 2017 12:31:49 GMT
True, except the misrepresentation of facts in respect of leaving EU (also known as lies) is an important consideration in the democratic process lies what lies if the remoaners bothered to get off there f*cking arses and vote maybe they would of won if they bothered to do there own research but no most commy pinko lefties just listen to there bible i.e BBC for everything if the BBC said jump of a cliff every lefty w*nker would do, if only The lies I refer to are those peddled by those who, for example, misrepresented the facts about the NHS benefitting, Immigration controls, and the general well being of the country following Brexit. As it happens I agree with what you say about people being lazy and not researching the subject but instead being fed garbage without having the gumption to ask intelligent question about what they are hearing. That, I fear, has been exploited by both sides. When all is said and done, I think leaving the EU is a poor decision but am reminded of an economist who was interviewed about it and said 'within the context of a century, and previous centuries, economical and fiscal trends are not determined by a single event'. I took it to mean in the grand scheme of things Brexit doesn't mean a jot. (incidentally, I don't listen to everything I hear and blindly take it on)
|
|
|
Post by ZeroTheHero on Sept 22, 2017 12:37:48 GMT
Who do we think is behind the (I hope!) spoof account 'williammuir'?
|
|
|
Post by Gary Baldi on Sept 22, 2017 12:46:36 GMT
truthteller, for me.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Sept 22, 2017 13:00:31 GMT
Not sure truthteller could keep his shit together for this long. I think it's that Geraldine Peers, she can get quite outspoken in the hammam.
|
|
|
Post by winchesterox on Sept 22, 2017 13:10:26 GMT
No no mdm, you were right to vote remain. Look at the embarrassing state of affairs we now in. Can't seem to rely on anyone in a position of responsibility in this ludicrous Brexit fiasco. They all nuts my friend, totally nuts. It's a negotiation ....what state of affairs are we in? Emotionally charged but short on fact. Apologies Ricky I was trying to be satirical. It was my on-going reaction against the claims that nobody in government or the EU has any clue what to do with Brexit. Of course, the remainers can take the opportunity to say 'I told you so', but does this help that much? We may have missed the time for good sense and reason when the first referendum took place, but I would suggest that we surely need some of that stuff now, if nothing more as a damage limitation exercise. Or perhaps it could just drift on and on being unresolved for decades to come and people lose interest and we never quite leave. This would not fulfil the democratic requirement but it might just work. No?
|
|
|
Post by rickyotto on Sept 22, 2017 13:46:33 GMT
It's a negotiation ....what state of affairs are we in? Emotionally charged but short on fact. Apologies Ricky I was trying to be satirical. It was my on-going reaction against the claims that nobody in government or the EU has any clue what to do with Brexit. Of course, the remainers can take the opportunity to say 'I told you so', but does this help that much? We may have missed the time for good sense and reason when the first referendum took place, but I would suggest that we surely need some of that stuff now, if nothing more as a damage limitation exercise. Or perhaps it could just drift on and on being unresolved for decades to come and people lose interest and we never quite leave. This would not fulfil the democratic requirement but it might just work. No? I think like so many things now we overreact hugely to things because the politicians, media, corporates tell us to. I very much doubt it will impact our individual lives that significantly en masse. It was never a black and white decision and there were merits to both arguments. You could have the very best brains in the world working at this and ultimately you'd find unhappy stakeholders and challenges dealing with some very belligerent bureaucrats whose careers depend on sustaining and growing the EU. Interestingly I'm in shanghai this week with work and have to say it's surprised me how "communist china" under a one party rule has so much individual freedom and such a good quality of life. Which suggests that political machinery is almost irrelevant when matched up against market forces. And it's refreshing not to listen to politicians bickering in hope of power. Not a view I ever expected to hold,
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cannell on Sept 22, 2017 13:48:25 GMT
According to the Lfetist Guardian "May says UK willing to promise that ECJ rulings will be taken into account in UK court decisions affecting EU nationals."
So much for independence. Is this why Leavers are calling another referendum?
|
|