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Post by godalmingyellow on Jan 17, 2017 11:29:26 GMT
The Irish Peace Process is not even on the same planet as buying a small football stadium in Oxfordshire. For the purposes of an HoT, buying the KasStad is pretty small beer. Yes it is more complex than buying a cream cake from Tesco, or a second hand length of rope on ebay, if you wish to make ridiculous comparisons, but it is not that big a deal for half decent legal teams to deal with. I don't wish to make any sort of comparison, ridiculous or otherwise. The Irish Peace process / stadium comparison was yours. My point is that you may say a HoT can be achieved quickly, others disagree. On the assumption that those others are not stupid or totally without experience, I think it's fair they've disagreed. No it wasn't my comparison, it was Charlie's, and I refuted its validity as I have done with your repetition of the comparison. These are pointless and meaningless comments conflating an otherwise decent discussion. I am simply placing my experience and understanding from my 30 odd years professional work, and if you choose to prefer someone else's point of view, that is entirely your right to do so.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jan 17, 2017 11:30:42 GMT
And to those who say it takes a long time to create an HoT. Well you don't really understand what an HoT is, how and why it is created, and what it represents. It is not a lengthy or costly process, and it is not legally binding unless the parties specifically wish to make it so. So what you are saying is an HoT is easy to cobble together and is not legally binding and means little in the grand scheme of things and yet a savvy business man who has run the club for three years and placed little importance on the stadium until recently will suddenly be able to use it as proof he can spend in the transfer window and get us promoted? No I am saying what I said above, which is none of the extreme and inaccurate interpretation you have applied to it.
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Post by oufcyellows on Jan 17, 2017 11:31:08 GMT
Am member of Oxvox and want it to work do i trust FK no, HISTORY HISTORY never ignore history .Kassam could say something to calm things down but he wont and never will. Would like to be proved wrong. All members of the Oxvox committee know that history as well if not better than all of us, as they have been also spending goes with the man himself not just going on assumptions of what he might or might not be doing
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Post by Pete Burrett on Jan 17, 2017 11:32:21 GMT
I don't wish to make any sort of comparison, ridiculous or otherwise. The Irish Peace process / stadium comparison was yours. My point is that you may say a HoT can be achieved quickly, others disagree. On the assumption that those others are not stupid or totally without experience, I think it's fair they've disagreed. No it wasn't my comparison, it was Charlie's, and I refuted its validity as I have done with your repetition of the comparison. These are pointless and meaningless comments conflating an otherwise decent discussion. I am simply placing my experience and understanding from my 30 odd years professional work, and if you choose to prefer someone else's point of view, that is entirely your right to do so. Yes, fair enough. I stand corrected about who made the Ireland / stadium comparison. I'm not doubting your professional assessment either, but others' professional assessments do differ to yours. Perhaps the coming OxVox statement will clarify why HoT are apparently likely to take so long in this case.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jan 17, 2017 11:41:33 GMT
No it wasn't my comparison, it was Charlie's, and I refuted its validity as I have done with your repetition of the comparison. These are pointless and meaningless comments conflating an otherwise decent discussion. I am simply placing my experience and understanding from my 30 odd years professional work, and if you choose to prefer someone else's point of view, that is entirely your right to do so. Yes, fair enough. I stand corrected about who made the Ireland / stadium comparison. I'm not doubting your professional assessment either, but others' professional assessments do differ to yours. Perhaps the coming OxVox statement will clarify why HoT are apparently likely to take so long in this case. Mine is not a professional assessment as I am, quite rightly, not privvy to the detail of what is being discussed. What I can do, and have done, is pointed out that in my experience, and comparison with other projects of likely similar complexity, the OxVox statements on timescales to date are unrealistically long, and DE's statements on the same have been realistic. Show me the "professional assessments" that differ. Whilst I would not dare suggest that I know better than anyone else, all I've seen is plenty of opinions, to which everyone is entitled, from people that I am not aware have professional experience in these matters, on which I am more than happy to be corrected.
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Post by shosho on Jan 17, 2017 11:46:55 GMT
Yes, fair enough. I stand corrected about who made the Ireland / stadium comparison. I'm not doubting your professional assessment either, but others' professional assessments do differ to yours. Perhaps the coming OxVox statement will clarify why HoT are apparently likely to take so long in this case. Mine is not a professional assessment as I am, quite rightly, not privvy to the detail of what is being discussed. What I can do, and have done, is pointed out that in my 30 odd years of professional experience, and comparison with other projects of likely similar complexity, the OxVox statements on timescales to date are unrealistically long, and DE's statements on the same have been realistic. Show me the "professional assessments" that differ. Whilst I would not dare suggest that I know better than anyone else, all I've seen is plenty of opinions, to which everyone is entitled, from people that I am not aware have professional experience in these matters, on which I am more than happy to be corrected. Whilst I have no professional opinion, would it be reasonable to assume that Oxvox lengthened the timescale to ensure they wouldn't get pilloried for failing to meet an earlier deadline?
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Post by pooroldboy on Jan 17, 2017 11:49:38 GMT
Do we really know what Oxvox have done so far NO
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Post by Pete Burrett on Jan 17, 2017 11:49:56 GMT
Yes, fair enough. I stand corrected about who made the Ireland / stadium comparison. I'm not doubting your professional assessment either, but others' professional assessments do differ to yours. Perhaps the coming OxVox statement will clarify why HoT are apparently likely to take so long in this case. Mine is not a professional assessment as I am, quite rightly, not privvy to the detail of what is being discussed. What I can do, and have done, is pointed out that in my 30 odd years of professional experience, and comparison with other projects of likely similar complexity, the OxVox statements on timescales to date are unrealistically long, and DE's statements on the same have been realistic. Show me the "professional assessments" that differ. Whilst I would not dare suggest that I know better than anyone else, all I've seen is plenty of opinions, to which everyone is entitled, from people that I am not aware have professional experience in these matters, on which I am more than happy to be corrected. Maybe some of the comments on this thread are opinions not based on actual experience, I don't know. I do know that at least two of the OxVox committee are well-versed in dealing with HoTs in their own business lives. You have your view on how quickly a HoT can be achieved, based on your own experience. Those OxVox committee members are obviously not concerned about not achieving HoT quickly.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Jan 17, 2017 11:51:58 GMT
Do we really know what Oxvox have done so far NO Yet you still feel you can pillory OxVox and suggest they're being led up the garden path. How do you equate those two statements?
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Post by headingtonutd on Jan 17, 2017 11:53:19 GMT
So what you are saying is an HoT is easy to cobble together and is not legally binding and means little in the grand scheme of things and yet a savvy business man who has run the club for three years and placed little importance on the stadium until recently will suddenly be able to use it as proof he can spend in the transfer window and get us promoted? No I am saying what I said above, which is none of the extreme and inaccurate interpretation you have applied to it. Well explain then if I read it wrong by all means. You are saying an HoT is simple, not legally binding and could be thrown together in days yes? (after all this is what DE wants) ' And to those who say it takes a long time to create an HoT. Well you don't really understand what an HoT is, how and why it is created, and what it represents. It is not a lengthy or costly process, and it is not legally binding unless the parties specifically wish to make it so.' You also said it's what DE needs to base his January spend on as well I think? ' Having an HoT in place significantly reduces the risk to DE of investing in the playing staff of OUFC and pushing for promotion either this season or next, which are in effect governed by this transfer window and the summer respectively.'
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Post by foley on Jan 17, 2017 11:59:51 GMT
Do we really know what Oxvox have done so far NO It isn't difficult to read through the line and get an idea of what is happening..... For confidentiality reasons we have no actual facts, but we do know that a huge amount of time has been put into the project, that FK, the council and Oxvox are in discussions and that according to Oxvox that is all going well.
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Post by oxfordyankee on Jan 17, 2017 12:02:53 GMT
Mine is not a professional assessment as I am, quite rightly, not privvy to the detail of what is being discussed. What I can do, and have done, is pointed out that in my 30 odd years of professional experience, and comparison with other projects of likely similar complexity, the OxVox statements on timescales to date are unrealistically long, and DE's statements on the same have been realistic. Show me the "professional assessments" that differ. Whilst I would not dare suggest that I know better than anyone else, all I've seen is plenty of opinions, to which everyone is entitled, from people that I am not aware have professional experience in these matters, on which I am more than happy to be corrected. Whilst I have no professional opinion, would it be reasonable to assume that Oxvox lengthened the timescale to ensure they wouldn't get pilloried for failing to meet an earlier deadline? That is possible. I do the same thing with my wife all the time...
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Post by pooroldboy on Jan 17, 2017 12:09:57 GMT
Its Kassam i dont trust not Oxvox. get it
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Post by oufcyellows on Jan 17, 2017 12:15:05 GMT
Its Kassam i dont trust not Oxvox. get it So if u trust Oxvox why do u not trust Them, fellow fans with more knowledge of Kassam, to make the decision ? They know more about fk, having spent hours working on this with him than any of us, probably including de. They also know the history
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Post by oxfordyankee on Jan 17, 2017 12:29:18 GMT
When we vote in an election, we are backing a group to do our bidding. That backing is not unconditional and we all, I suspect, question the decisions and actions of the group we backed with our vote.
OxVox, of which I'm a member, have my backing, but that doesn't mean I, or any member, can't question the committee's actions. After all, the decision to act in the manner they currently are was made by the committee, not by explicit permission of the entire membership.
Democracy at work, folks.
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Post by Yellow River on Jan 17, 2017 12:30:52 GMT
That would be one explanation for today's statement It's an explanation which makes sense. In corporate financing terms, announcements of agreements, heads of terms etc, affects a business' share price. It's only when those deals are implemented that it affects the business' cash flow. If an announcement on heads of terms was made today, it would make absolutely no difference to the club in terms of budget setting for next season - clearly a deal isn't going to be completed in that timescale, considering the complexities of what is likely to be involved here. What it would make a difference to is the club's "share price". Having an agreement in place which is likely to be more favourable to the club makes it a more attractive business to invest in, and that's what investors do everyday - take a punt on businesses with potential. And that's what I believe Darryl is doing here, trying to push for an announcement of an agreement to make the club a more saleable proposition. In his programme notes last week he said that he has invested around £8m in the club over the last two and a half seasons. It was widely believed that he had around £10m to play with, so it doesn't take a genius to work out that he is coming towards the end of that. So, it would make sense for him to be looking at some sort of exit strategy and try to maximise the return he can get. Although I agree with others that the recent statements by DE look like an exit strategy, it did cross my mind that perhaps DE has further investment/partner lined up which is dependent on the ownership of the stadium and that is perhaps why the sudden urgency.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jan 17, 2017 12:35:29 GMT
No I am saying what I said above, which is none of the extreme and inaccurate interpretation you have applied to it. Well explain then if I read it wrong by all means. You are saying an HoT is simple, not legally binding and could be thrown together in days yes? (after all this is what DE wants) ' And to those who say it takes a long time to create an HoT. Well you don't really understand what an HoT is, how and why it is created, and what it represents. It is not a lengthy or costly process, and it is not legally binding unless the parties specifically wish to make it so.' You also said it's what DE needs to base his January spend on as well I think? ' Having an HoT in place significantly reduces the risk to DE of investing in the playing staff of OUFC and pushing for promotion either this season or next, which are in effect governed by this transfer window and the summer respectively.' Yes an HoT for something like this project would probably be likely to be relatively straight forward. Not necessarily simple. An HoT is only legally binding if it is poorly drafted, or specifically drafted to be binding. Days no, weeks yes, unless there are major obstacles that are not in the public domain. I asserted from DE's public announcements and statements, and from the widely known financial state of OUFC trading, that Championship football would be too expensive for OUFC to undertake sustainably and an investor, such as DE, would want the risk of that lack of sustainability to be minimised before investing.
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Post by godalmingyellow on Jan 17, 2017 12:37:57 GMT
I trust OxVox to do what is right for OUFC.
I trust Daryl Eales to do what is right for OUFC.
The two statements are not mutually exclusive.
Having that trust does not prevent reasonable questioning of information put into the public domain.
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Post by canterburyexile on Jan 17, 2017 13:08:21 GMT
I cannot see why Oxvox and DE cannot work together for one end result,which is what we all want. Kassam will play games, stall and backtrack. He did it when I was at the club and I see no reason to think he may now be different. He is ruthless. DE is owed the courtesy of keeping him involved. I trt Oxvox are true to their word and are indeed kepping Darryl in the loop. If they are failing to do this they may be culpable in driving him awY - despite all their good intentions. DE may becoming frustrated as he knows, as many of us do, just how devious and awkward Firoz can be. He can happily string people along. Let us not forget how he bought the Manor ( allegedly as he could not find a buyer) and then amazingly sold it months later for a sizeable profit ( money that should have come to OUFC not Firoka) and also how he persuaded the incumbent builders of the stadium to accept 10p in the £ in a CVA and then duly sacked them and replaced them with another company. Be warned everyone. Hence the unease amongst the directors I assume.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jan 17, 2017 13:11:26 GMT
I cannot see why Oxvox and DE cannot work together for one end result,which is what we all want. In what way would you suggest they 'work together'? Or perhaps, in which ways do you think they aren't doing so?
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Post by oufcyellows on Jan 17, 2017 13:20:27 GMT
I cannot see why Oxvox and DE cannot work together for one end result,which is what we all want. Kassam will play games, stall and backtrack. He did it when I was at the club and I see no reason to think he may now be different. He is ruthless. DE is owed the courtesy of keeping him involved. I trt Oxvox are true to their word and are indeed kepping Darryl in the loop. If they are failing to do this they may be culpable in driving him awY - despite all their good intentions. DE may becoming frustrated as he knows, as many of us do, just how devious and awkward Firoz can be. He can happily string people along. Let us not forget how he bought the Manor ( allegedly as he could not find a buyer) and then amazingly sold it months later for a sizeable profit ( money that should have come to OUFC not Firoka) and also how he persuaded the incumbent builders of the stadium to accept 10p in the £ in a CVA and then duly sacked them and replaced them with another company. Be warned everyone. Hence the unease amongst the directors I assume. It's easy to say can't see why they can't work together , but when they started the process de wasn't interested in acquiring the stadium, then when Oxvox made fk do the initial press release, probably to prove his commitment, de and gbt both said what a fantastic opportunity it was for the club, it's only recently that it has apparently become more pressing for the club, and they are suddenly trying to speed things up. De and the board have had the exact same opportunity to do this deal, and WE yet decided not to. Instead getting into such a working relationship with fk that they ain't even talking and are fighting each other in court. I'm sure de is being kept up to date more than us regular fans, and he will be more than involved once details are agreed and new rental contracts and working relationships are drawn up. Until then everyone needs to show a little patience, were talking 6/7 months from the press release announcing it, to the date that it should be available for everyone to see the plan, that's no time at all when u think il worked on it for 7 years and de has had 3 to do it. As well as the fact that before the end of the season could mean next week.
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Post by finlandia on Jan 17, 2017 13:38:40 GMT
I'm sorry, but this has the ability to go down the 'Coventry' Route. My faith is with the incumbent, the man who has invested millions, got us to Wembley, got us promotion.
If he leaves, then we are royally screwed. I'm an OxVox Member, but this leaves me feeling very uneasy. Timescales have slipped, no real details of funding, etc ( appreciate NDA's) and I can't see how DE will be happy to have debt with no asset. If this goes tits up, OxVox can walk away, having spent hours, but no cash. They will not be accountable.
DE is the reason why we are where we are. I know that the board is heavily favored by OxVox, bit it only represents a 10-15 % of our fanbase.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jan 17, 2017 13:44:05 GMT
I'm sorry, but this has the ability to go down the 'Coventry' Route. My faith is with the incumbent, the man who has invested millions, got us to Wembley, got us promotion. If he leaves, then we are royally screwed. I'm an OxVox Member, but this leaves me feeling very uneasy. Timescales have slipped, no real details of funding, etc ( appreciate NDA's) and I can't see how DE will be happy to have debt with no asset. If this goes tits up, OxVox can walk away, having spent hours, but no cash. They will not be accountable. DE is the reason why we are where we are. I know that the board is heavily favored by OxVox, bit it only represents a 10-15 % of our fanbase. But Kassam won't sell to DE. Or at least not at a price that DE wants to pay. If you accept that - and I think it's a matter of record - then there are two choices: Choice 1. We stay as we are. Choice 2. The stadium is acquired by a 'community' group which includes a set of committed OUFC supporters. Is there another option? If not, which of these do you prefer?
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Post by Pete Burrett on Jan 17, 2017 13:52:14 GMT
I'm sorry, but this has the ability to go down the 'Coventry' Route. My faith is with the incumbent, the man who has invested millions, got us to Wembley, got us promotion. If he leaves, then we are royally screwed. I'm an OxVox Member, but this leaves me feeling very uneasy. Timescales have slipped, no real details of funding, etc ( appreciate NDA's) and I can't see how DE will be happy to have debt with no asset. If this goes tits up, OxVox can walk away, having spent hours, but no cash. They will not be accountable. DE is the reason why we are where we are. I know that the board is heavily favored by OxVox, bit it only represents a 10-15 % of our fanbase. I think we're all feeling uneasy! Here's how I see it, based purely on what I've read, no inside information at all. Mr Eales loves the club and wants it to progress. He has invested £8 million (?) in OUFC. He knows he has little or no chance of getting that investment back unless he controls the stadium and its revenue streams. He has made three bids for the stadium. One is still on the table. Unfortunately, the stadium owner has stated he will not sell to any individual. There is much speculation as to why, but I think we can all be certain it's not for charitable reasons, or to benefit OUFC. So what is to be done? Kassam seems amenable to the idea of Community Ownership and is engaged in talks with OCC and OxVox to that end. It seems Kassam does not want to engage Mr Eales, so what else is to be done? There are many questions still unanswered, and concern over heads of terms of agreement and funding, but while tri-partry talks at least progress they should be given a chance. To keep stating OxVox should include Mr Eales in talks (and I'm not suggesting you've said this) or that Mr Eales should buy the stadium or build us a brand new one is pretty pointless, given the current situation.
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Post by canterburyexile on Jan 17, 2017 13:54:49 GMT
Clearly most including DE are happy with a community based stadium but the unease is caused by the way in which FK can happily and expertly string people along, however 'savvy' they may think they are. Hope us doubters are all wrong. But the crucial point is that Oxvox must never lose sight of how important DE is to this club.
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Post by Pete Burrett on Jan 17, 2017 14:00:38 GMT
Clearly most including DE are happy with a community based stadium but the unease is caused by the way in which FK can happily and expertly string people along, however 'savvy' they may think they are. Hope us doubters are all wrong. But the crucial point is that Oxvox must never lose sight of how important DE is to this club. Oh, Kassam will know exactly what he wants from this, and he will almost certainly get it. That shouldn't affect pursuit of Community Ownership though. As long as OUFC have a stadium to play in free of his influence, that should be enough for even the most ardent Kassam-haters. Surely no-one is so keen to thwart Kassam that they'll favour it to the detriment of OUFC?
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Post by oufcyellows on Jan 17, 2017 14:31:41 GMT
How ever savvy they might think they are, Jesus.
We all know fk is a tricky customer but he's being made out to be some Sith Lord that can easily play with the minds of these poor mortal Oxvox representatives.
These are the terms your looking for, move along
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Post by oxfordyankee on Jan 17, 2017 14:33:58 GMT
Darth Firoka...
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Post by oufcyellows on Jan 17, 2017 14:36:06 GMT
It's not like he even had some cunning plan and tricked us before, he did it all in plain sight. He didn't hold nick merrys arm behind his back or ask him for his autograph on a blank piece of paper that turned out to be a folded contract.
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Post by essexyellows on Jan 17, 2017 14:37:50 GMT
Well explain then if I read it wrong by all means. You are saying an HoT is simple, not legally binding and could be thrown together in days yes? (after all this is what DE wants) ' And to those who say it takes a long time to create an HoT. Well you don't really understand what an HoT is, how and why it is created, and what it represents. It is not a lengthy or costly process, and it is not legally binding unless the parties specifically wish to make it so.' You also said it's what DE needs to base his January spend on as well I think? ' Having an HoT in place significantly reduces the risk to DE of investing in the playing staff of OUFC and pushing for promotion either this season or next, which are in effect governed by this transfer window and the summer respectively.' Yes an HoT for something like this project would probably be likely to be relatively straight forward. Not necessarily simple. An HoT is only legally binding if it is poorly drafted, or specifically drafted to be binding.Days no, weeks yes, unless there are major obstacles that are not in the public domain. I asserted from DE's public announcements and statements, and from the widely known financial state of OUFC trading, that Championship football would be too expensive for OUFC to undertake sustainably and an investor, such as DE, would want the risk of that lack of sustainability to be minimised before investing. Thats the most important bit as anyone who has dealt with such should know..... its almost as bad as signing up to a lease that costs a lot of money for little return really..... no "professional" would ever do that....oh...hold on.
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