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Post by oxvox on Sept 27, 2016 9:18:23 GMT
Hi all
in response to a number of questions at the recent members meeting, OxVox have now set up a regular (formal) liaison mechanic with Thames Valley Police, with a view to being able to discuss fans views and/or any concerns on all things to do with match day policing.
The first meeting is on Wednesday 5th October and we're keen to get any fans questions ASAP, so that we can build them into the agenda for the meeting.
Please either post on this thread, or use the private message facility.
Cheers!
Jem
COYY's!
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Post by minime on Sept 27, 2016 14:11:19 GMT
Hi all
in response to a number of questions at the recent members meeting, OxVox have now set up a regular (formal) liaison mechanic with Thames Valley Police, with a view to being able to discuss fans views and/or any concerns on all things to do with match day policing.
The first meeting is on Wednesday 5th October and we're keen to get any fans questions ASAP, so that we can build them into the agenda for the meeting.
Please either post on this thread, or use the private message facility.
Cheers!
Jem
COYY's! Explain the logic behind the Millwall game last season
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Post by Junior on Sept 28, 2016 1:07:12 GMT
More for the club rather than TVP. Can you ask why they have very few stewards of their own these days and why a whole stack left in the summer.
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Post by oufcyellows on Sept 28, 2016 5:42:33 GMT
More for the club rather than TVP. Can you ask why they have very few stewards of their own these days and why a whole stack left in the summer. Can I ask again , are you a oxvox member now then junior 😉 still don't think u have answered
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 28, 2016 8:34:29 GMT
1. Do they charge OUFC or the Stadco for their services? 2. How much based on what, per game? 3. How much data is shared between the football club & TVP & why. 4. Why are fans targeted by ABC`s without being found guilty in court? 5. Are all stewards SIA licenced? If so why aren`t their badges displayed as required?
That`ll do, for now.
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Post by saddletramp on Sept 28, 2016 10:13:59 GMT
When we play Millwall,would TVP allow us to have a fanzone,where Oxford and Millwall fans can mingle together in a spirit of comradeship and love of the "beautiful game " ?
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Post by yuriyeller on Sept 28, 2016 10:18:06 GMT
When we play Millwall,would TVP allow us to have a fanzone,where Oxford and Millwall fans can mingle together in a spirit of comradeship and love of the "beautiful game " ? Perhaps we could exchange biscuits.
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Post by Junior on Sept 28, 2016 10:35:32 GMT
1. Do they charge OUFC or the Stadco for their services? 2. How much based on what, per game? 3. How much data is shared between the football club & TVP & why. 4. Why are fans targeted by ABC`s without being found guilty in court? 5. Are all stewards SIA licenced? If so why aren`t their badges displayed as required? That`ll do, for now. Would love to know the answer to question 4..
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Post by Mark on Sept 28, 2016 11:04:10 GMT
1. Do they charge OUFC or the Stadco for their services? 2. How much based on what, per game? 3. How much data is shared between the football club & TVP & why. 4. Why are fans targeted by ABC`s without being found guilty in court? 5. Are all stewards SIA licenced? If so why aren`t their badges displayed as required? That`ll do, for now. Would love to know the answer to question 4.. Have ABCs got anything to do with the police? Thought it was more of a club/fan matter.
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Post by Colin B on Sept 28, 2016 12:49:46 GMT
Would love to know the answer to question 4.. Have ABCs got anything to do with the police? Thought it was more of a club/fan matter. If an ABC is breached, the club/TVP will seek a Football Banning Order, so yes it is a police matter.
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 28, 2016 13:09:29 GMT
Have ABCs got anything to do with the police? Thought it was more of a club/fan matter. If an ABC is breached, the club/TVP will seek a Football Banning Order, so yes it is a police matter. Exactly this. So you could get a banning order without ever being found guilty in court in the traditional manner. Now I know some folk deserve what they get, play with fire & all that, but at least they should have their day in court so they can defend themselves. That matters even more when the likes of TVP are known to have fabricated "evidence" to get results.
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Post by Mark on Sept 28, 2016 16:25:30 GMT
Have ABCs got anything to do with the police? Thought it was more of a club/fan matter. If an ABC is breached, the club/TVP will seek a Football Banning Order, so yes it is a police matter. Would be interesting to know the process by which the club issues ABCs. So who decides ? Is it police, safety officers, stewards, the MD? Is it only people who've been to court in the first place ? Or charged?
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Post by Colin B on Sept 28, 2016 18:19:00 GMT
If an ABC is breached, the club/TVP will seek a Football Banning Order, so yes it is a police matter. Would be interesting to know the process by which the club issues ABCs. So who decides ? Is it police, safety officers, stewards, the MD? Is it only people who've been to court in the first place ? Or charged? All good questions, which need asking, and deserve a proper answer.
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Post by cass63 on Sept 29, 2016 6:19:16 GMT
The TVP fabricate evidence, what's the point of liaising with them?
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 29, 2016 7:00:03 GMT
I haven`t read this Home Office document at depth but I would question OUFC`s legal position (as a private business) to be able to implement ABC`s. TVP can apply for an ASB Order, but would have to have consulted with all stakeholders before making the Kassam & its surrounding area subject to such. I don`t remember that happening? www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/219663/asbos9.pdfFrom a quick scan through it seems public bodys (councils etc) can apply for and implement ABC/ASBO`s fairly easily, yet there is no mention of private companies being able to do so. Just another case of slippage creating false legislation. It would be interesting if anyone currently under an ABC challenged it in court.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Sept 29, 2016 7:30:52 GMT
Would the ABC be covered within the terms of conditions of buying a ticket for a game? Not in explicit the ABC for behaviour is, but as a catch all?
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Post by Colin B on Sept 29, 2016 11:03:15 GMT
An ABC has to be agreed to by the individual, and is then the terms under which that individual can attend games. If the individual won't agree to it, then they are banned by the club. One of the terms on the ABC will be that if it is breached in any way (and just being in a group of more than four people can constitute a breach!) the club will seek through the courts a Football Banning Order. This would be supported by TVP and 99.999999% of the time passed by magistrates. The individual is then criminalised and will have to hand their passport in to TVP when there are internationals on and they will show on the register as being in the "risk" group. Once the Football Banning Order is up they will stay on the register, and will almost certainly have to sign another ABC, before being allowed back to games, so the cycle continues.
A friend of mine was banned and took his passport into the police station a little late, when there was an international game on. He was near the end of his ban and TVP took him back to court and got his ban extended by a further three years, so please don't anybody think that this sort of thing doesn't happen. Please also don't interpret that OxVox meeting with TVP means OxVox agreeing with TVP on everything they say or propose.
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Post by essexyellows on Sept 29, 2016 13:23:46 GMT
Thats what riles me in that there is no opportunity for justice to take its course....offer an ABC as an "easy out" then get picky about minor details that don`t resolve the problem. Don`t get me wrong that those who play with fire may well get burnt and deserve it, but they also deserve their day in court. There are often two sides to every story and its for the individuals peers to decide, not just presumption of guilt & rubber stamping a ban.
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Post by oxfordjack on Sept 29, 2016 13:57:43 GMT
Colin B having seen a ABC it has changed slightly, it is issued to people who have been charged with a football related offence regardless of whether found guilty or not guilty, it lists all of the conditions of which everybody that buys a ticket has to comply with as well as the individual must not encourage others to break these regulations. It does not mention in it about the sitting with 4 or more people that are not family like it did when the first lot of ABC were issued in 2013. Personally don't think it would stand up in court if it is breached. The club in fact any club or business can refuse who they like from entering their premises.
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Post by Mark on Sept 29, 2016 14:07:45 GMT
But does breaking an ABC mean that you get banned from the club (home, or home and away?)
But aren't football banning orders only applicable if you've been convicted of an offence. So breaking an ABC in itself isn't an offence.
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Post by Denissmithswig on Sept 30, 2016 23:29:35 GMT
But does breaking an ABC mean that you get banned from the club (home, or home and away?) But aren't football banning orders only applicable if you've been convicted of an offence. So breaking an ABC in itself isn't an offence. An ABC can be given for behaviour at away games I think so if a fan doesn't sign it then they will be banned by the club for all games if they refuse to sign it. If a fan refuses to sign an ABC then IMO I think they deserve what ever they get as the club are trying to help them by keep coming to games but have to behave. It would thought be better if clubs made it clear what offences would result in receiving an ABC.
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Post by Colin B on Oct 1, 2016 7:51:09 GMT
And this naive, blinkered view is exactly why TVP get away with things like ABCs.
To say that if fans refuse to sign it "they deserve everything they get" displays ignorance and contempt toward what some of those fans have been through. It's been discussed extensively before on here, but the first ABCs at Oxford were after the Bristol Rovers game about four years ago. Many people were rounded up and arrested, many for no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. When it came to court a number of these people were found Not Guilty, but the club/TVP insisted on them signing an ABC before they would be allowed to return to games (in these circumstances you are banned until you get to court, even though at that point you have not been found guilty of anything).
So to summarise, people were arrested, charged, banned until it came to court (up to a year in some cases), found NOT GUILTY, and then presented with an ABC. And you think they "deserve everything they get"?
I normally enjoy your postings DSW, but I'm afraid on this one you're miles off the mark.
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Post by Denissmithswig on Oct 1, 2016 11:00:04 GMT
And this naive, blinkered view is exactly why TVP get away with things like ABCs. To say that if fans refuse to sign it "they deserve everything they get" displays ignorance and contempt toward what some of those fans have been through. It's been discussed extensively before on here, but the first ABCs at Oxford were after the Bristol Rovers game about four years ago. Many people were rounded up and arrested, many for no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. When it came to court a number of these people were found Not Guilty, but the club/TVP insisted on them signing an ABC before they would be allowed to return to games (in these circumstances you are banned until you get to court, even though at that point you have not been found guilty of anything). So to summarise, people were arrested, charged, banned until it came to court (up to a year in some cases), found NOT GUILTY, and then presented with an ABC. And you think they "deserve everything they get"? I normally enjoy your postings DSW, but I'm afraid on this one you're miles off the mark. Maybe I worded it wrong. My point was that if someone is given an ABC then surely it is the club giving them the chance to prove they can behave rather than just banning them straight away?
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Post by Colin B on Oct 1, 2016 21:59:33 GMT
And this naive, blinkered view is exactly why TVP get away with things like ABCs. To say that if fans refuse to sign it "they deserve everything they get" displays ignorance and contempt toward what some of those fans have been through. It's been discussed extensively before on here, but the first ABCs at Oxford were after the Bristol Rovers game about four years ago. Many people were rounded up and arrested, many for no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. When it came to court a number of these people were found Not Guilty, but the club/TVP insisted on them signing an ABC before they would be allowed to return to games (in these circumstances you are banned until you get to court, even though at that point you have not been found guilty of anything). So to summarise, people were arrested, charged, banned until it came to court (up to a year in some cases), found NOT GUILTY, and then presented with an ABC. And you think they "deserve everything they get"? I normally enjoy your postings DSW, but I'm afraid on this one you're miles off the mark. Maybe I worded it wrong. My point was that if someone is given an ABC then surely it is the club giving them the chance to prove they can behave rather than just banning them straight away? But if they've been found NOT GUILTY why should they face any penalty at all?
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Post by Denissmithswig on Oct 1, 2016 22:09:52 GMT
Maybe I worded it wrong. My point was that if someone is given an ABC then surely it is the club giving them the chance to prove they can behave rather than just banning them straight away? But if they've been found NOT GUILTY why should they face any penalty at all? I do agree in a way with that but not guilty doesn't mean they should not be monitored by the club surely? I may be wrong but is an ABC not put in place on someone who has the potential to cause problems at matches and by giving them an ABC it is a way for the club to keep an eye on their behaviour?
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Post by manorlounger on Oct 2, 2016 15:08:35 GMT
But if they've been found NOT GUILTY why should they face any penalty at all? I do agree in a way with that but not guilty doesn't mean they should not be monitored by the club surely? I may be wrong but is an ABC not put in place on someone who has the potential to cause problems at matches and by giving them an ABC it is a way for the club to keep an eye on their behaviour? Forgive me if I am wrong but, I don't believe a verdict of "not proven" is part of English law. Worse still, that anyone can be treated in a discriminatory manner without any opportunity of legal redress is abhorrent.
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Post by essexyellows on Oct 2, 2016 19:51:05 GMT
Exactly my issue with the ABC`s. Person goes to court, having already been subjected to a banning punishment by the club/TVP and are found NOT GUILTY. Now we all know there is often "no smoke without fire" however if there is insufficient evidence & folk are found NOT GUILTY why should they be subject to either "pre-court banning" or post court ABC`s ? If there is convincing evidence then by all means hit them with the big sticks but using such leverage is a dangerous road to follow.
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Post by sarge on Oct 3, 2016 18:24:25 GMT
another major major problem with oufc issued ABCs is they are open ended, no time limited stated on them (unless they have changed) ...therefore potentially an ABC , if signed, concievably could last until the signee passes away!! apparently OUFC issued ABCs are (possibly) for life, not 'just ' till xmas(or whenever)
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Post by robie on Oct 3, 2016 19:38:08 GMT
If you read the legislation and how easy it could be to get a civil football banning order, s14b, you will probably see that an ABC is a proportionate way of dealing with the matter. The burden of proof in civil courts and criminal courts is very different. I would be very surprised if there was enough evidence to charge a person for a football related offence that there wouldn't be enough evidence for a s14b. www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/football_related_offences/This will help you sleep.
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Post by harrycarry on Oct 3, 2016 20:20:07 GMT
1. Ask them why they think it's a good idea to escort Wall past The Bkackbird and do they intend to repeat this plan.
2. Politely request that the Mounted Police keep their horses under control and away from orderly fans including OAP's and Children.
3. Ask them to 'look in the mirror'. In other words review their actions some of which IMO are as bad as the few idiotic hooligans that attend our matches.
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