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Post by Paul Cannell on Apr 20, 2014 13:10:14 GMT
Does anyone know that the council owns the Priory or the terms of the lease with Firoka?
I'm trying to get a definite statement. If you can help please PM me or whatever.
The planning info linked to earlier has 2 relevant clauses about the Priory, also the OS record shows the proposed hotel meets the end wall of the existing building - seems a little odd. Any info?
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Post by sarge on Apr 21, 2014 13:21:41 GMT
The information regarding all properties owned by Oxford City Council SHOULD be available to any members of the public That information ought to be easily accessible via their Website... logically via 'planning and building control' www.oxford.gov.uk/PageRender/decP/Planning.htmThough given the amount of attempts it took several of us to lodge complaints and concerns regarding the current condition the Priory has been allowed to fall into, (over a number months too) ...maybe a list or register of properties owned by Oxford City Council IS on public display....in a locked cupboard in the basement of a very small City Council 'Leisure and parks' office or motor mower store, somewhere within the City boundary?? If no joy on the website...maybe a telephone call or contacting your local city councilors and request the information from them? Re the proposed hotel meeting the end wall of The Priory,.... Im no authority on the complex planning regulations ...however again, applying logic, If the end wall of the grade2 listed building no longer has the airflow or exposure to sunlight and other natural elements, which have served the Priory end wall for a considerably long period of time,.... to me, a layman on the subject.... any large structure that puts the end wall of the Grade 2 listed building in permanent shadow, would Id think, also be highly likely to accelerate the very high potential of seeing the onset of serious damage from permanent dampness immediately said structure is constructed .... What about any damage to the aforementioned end wall of the Priory by careless building labourers? ......what about the real likely hood of irreparable damage that would almost certainly be sustained to the entirety of the Grade2 listed building, highly likely caused by the mechanical heavy plant machines required to dig deep enough footings to support the structure of a multi storey hotel? .....what about the council tax payers of Oxford City, and their family members as well as visitors to the City of Oxford, who, SHOULD any proposed hotel or any other building was granted planning permission that allowed the hotel (or building) to meet the end wall of the Priory, would be deprived of viewing at all, one quarter of a building that has been granted grade 2 status, a building that IS part of the architectural Heritage of England ?
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Post by bazzer9461 on Apr 21, 2014 13:26:18 GMT
The information regarding all properties owned by Oxford City Council SHOULD be available to any members of the public That information ought to be easily accessible via their Website... logically via 'planning and building control' www.oxford.gov.uk/PageRender/decP/Planning.htmThough given the amount of attempts it took several of us to lodge complaints and concerns regarding the current condition the Priory has been allowed to fall into, (over a number months too) ...maybe a list or register of properties owned by Oxford City Council IS on public display....in a locked cupboard in the basement of a very small City Council 'Leisure and parks' office or motor mower store, somewhere within the City boundary?? If no joy on the website...maybe a telephone call or contacting your local city councilors and request the information from them? Re the proposed hotel meeting the end wall of The Priory,.... Im no authority on the complex planning regulations ...however again, applying logic, If the end wall of the grade2 listed building no longer has the airflow or exposure to sunlight and other natural elements, which have served the Priory end wall for a considerably long period of time,.... to me, a layman on the subject.... any large structure that puts the end wall of the Grade 2 listed building in permanent shadow, would Id think, also be highly likely to accelerate the very high potential of seeing the onset of serious damage from permanent dampness immediately said structure is constructed .... What about any damage to the aforementioned end wall of the Priory by careless building labourers? ......what about the real likely hood of irreparable damage that would almost certainly be sustained to the entirety of the Grade2 listed building, highly likely caused by the mechanical heavy plant machines required to dig deep enough footings to support the structure of a multi storey hotel? .....what about the council tax payers of Oxford City, and their family members as well as visitors to the City of Oxford, who, SHOULD any proposed hotel or any other building was granted planning permission that allowed the hotel (or building) to meet the end wall of the Priory, would be deprived of viewing at all, one quarter of a building that has been granted grade 2 status, a building that IS part of the architectural Heritage of England ? Well written sarge
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Post by Paul Cannell on Apr 21, 2014 15:37:42 GMT
The information regarding all properties owned by Oxford City Council SHOULD be available to any members of the public That information ought to be easily accessible via their Website... logically via 'planning and building control' www.oxford.gov.uk/PageRender/decP/Planning.htmIf no joy on the website...maybe a telephone call or contacting your local city councilors and request the information from them? Re the proposed hotel meeting the end wall of The Priory,.... Im no authority on the complex planning regulations Yeah, I studied the council website for some time; eventually I made a FOI request, which they don't have to acknowledge for 10 days. So I asked here I read the planning outcome from 2005 that someone posted links to. Can't get the motherf ucking pdf to copy, but clause 3 of the judgement says something like "permission excludes details of design etc of the 2-storey wing adjacent to the Minchery Farmhouse (Priory). Revised details shall be submitted (etc) [exact quote follows] which should reduce the scale and better articulate the proposed building to form a more sensitive relationship with the listed building and improve the natural surveillance onto Minchery Farm track....." Clause 5 "Development shall not commence until the local planning authority has approved in writing a scheme for the repair of Minchery Farmhouse. The hotel shall not be brought into use until the repairs have been undertaken and the local planning authority have certified they have been completed in accordance with the approved details. That was in 2005. Sorry I'm too dumb or lazy to find out if these conditions were carried forward when the planning application was (allegedly) re-approved recently. Anyone? Unfortunately I don't live in Oxford as such so I don't have a councillor of my own to bother.
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Post by sarge on Apr 21, 2014 16:51:43 GMT
The information regarding all properties owned by Oxford City Council SHOULD be available to any members of the public That information ought to be easily accessible via their Website... logically via 'planning and building control' www.oxford.gov.uk/PageRender/decP/Planning.htmIf no joy on the website...maybe a telephone call or contacting your local city councilors and request the information from them? Re the proposed hotel meeting the end wall of The Priory,.... Im no authority on the complex planning regulations Yeah, I studied the council website for some time; eventually I made a FOI request, which they don't have to acknowledge for 10 days. So I asked here I read the planning outcome from 2005 that someone posted links to. Can't get the motherf ucking pdf to copy, but clause 3 of the judgement says something like "permission excludes details of design etc of the 2-storey wing adjacent to the Minchery Farmhouse (Priory). Revised details shall be submitted (etc) [exact quote follows] which should reduce the scale and better articulate the proposed building to form a more sensitive relationship with the listed building and improve the natural surveillance onto Minchery Farm track....." Clause 5 "Development shall not commence until the local planning authority has approved in writing a scheme for the repair of Minchery Farmhouse. The hotel shall not be brought into use until the repairs have been undertaken and the local planning authority have certified they have been completed in accordance with the approved details. That was in 2005. Sorry I'm too dumb or lazy to find out if these conditions were carried forward when the planning application was (allegedly) re-approved recently. Anyone? Unfortunately I don't live in Oxford as such so I don't have a councillor of my own to bother. I'll be bothering both of mine...even though one of them,... and his party leader on the City Council... have as yet to respond to my email regarding Oxford City Council's lack of response to questions, enquiries and complaints... lodged over a 5 month timescale... via Oxford City Council website
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Post by chappers on Apr 21, 2014 17:10:04 GMT
...IF .. & tis a big IF .... if the cockney-taff eggchasers DO rent The Priory as their local offices ....( and there is no evidence of that happening, only speculation and rumour) .....maybe/hopefully they'll open it as a pub/bar on Matchdays, both 'ours' and theirs..... ( bar take could potentially offset ( at least some of) the rent they'd be paying OGB) ..... lets not forget LW have a much better deal with Ka$$am on their 'fee' for playing matches at the breeze block stadium than OUFC do, so maybe rent charged would be less than was being imposed when it was a pub? ......... time will tell ...... first priority of course is to ensure that the Priory is restored to how it should be as opposed to how it has been allowed to degenerate into! A very big if, I don't know if many of you are aware of the state of the inside of the Priory. to turn it into offices would require significant works, all of which would need to be carried out under the restrictions of listed building consent. Someone mentioned £500k to restore the Priory to a suitable standard, and whilst that might sound like an incredible amount i doubt it is far from the mark. I reckon it would need about £100k to get it to a state where it could be opened again. Nothing I have heard from LW indicates they have any intention of moving from their current offices and nothing indicates they could find the money to do anything with the Priory. The last time these rumours started were when someone known to LW made an inquiry into the lease details of renting it as a pub. I suspect that LW would seriously look at a side by side venture with OUFC with regards to running it as a matchday clubhouse, if the conditions were right. i.e the place was sorted out and the rent was realistic, however I don't reckon we are going to get there anytime soon. I am hearing lots of talk about OCC or Kassam being forced to repair the building/turn it back into a pub, the relity is that they can't be forced to run a pub there and probably at best would only be forced to carry out works to prevent it's further deterioration. The whole site is in desperate need of some form of development to tidy it up, and then maybe a decent use that attracts people there could make it viable again , but currently who would even want to drink there with the place in the state it has been for the last few years. The general vernacular of the area(leisure centre /business park)makes it very difficult to pitch a new business there, If we were still talking about a country pub, then maye there would be more chance. I think some sort of community use coupled with a clubhouse might work for the site, but that would involve the council getting back full control of the site and then spending some money on development/redevelopment. Not going to hold my breath on that happening
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Post by sarge on Apr 21, 2014 18:28:21 GMT
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Post by foley on Apr 22, 2014 11:00:50 GMT
The Council need to really get behind the Priory re-opening. If memory serves me right, they were not going to allow the marquee going forwards? If that is the case then it reduces the possibility of it being a sensible commercial option.
What Chappers says seems to make sense. For it to make sense either LW need to relocate their offices there (doubtful from what he says) or it needs to be a joint OUFC/LW initiative.
Sorry for not reading through the whole thread, but what is Oxvox's view on this and are they in conversations either with IL or others?
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Post by chappers on Apr 22, 2014 22:06:31 GMT
I very much doubt that they would have any serious grounds for refusing a renewal of the marquee's licence. As I said to Tim previously I would be pretty confident of an application to renew.
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Post by sarge on Apr 23, 2014 11:58:18 GMT
I very much doubt that they would have any serious grounds for refusing a renewal of the marquee's licence. As I said to Tim previously I would be pretty confident of an application to renew. That's not how I recall things. I thought OCC served notice on the marquee and this subsequently influenced Tim to give up his tenancy at the Priory. Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards ..... thats the way I recall it being too- some part time officious woman in the OCC envoirmental(?) office reversed her predessors agreement....citing that the Marquee at the Priory wasnt in keeping with the surroundings..... which kind of screams the fact that she hadnt gone out from behind the sanctity of her desk to actually have a first hand look at the surrounding area for herself cynic that I am , at the time I speculated that the only likely complainant of the Marquee not being in keeping with the surroundings wouldve been Ka$$am himself, or one of his hired lackeys ( with the hidden agenda of over a period of time allowing the Priory to fall into disrepair and then bulldoze it to make it easier to build another hotel).... hmmmmmmm, Ive not changed my mind on that either!!!
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Post by mcf86 on Apr 23, 2014 14:11:17 GMT
That's not how I recall things. I thought OCC served notice on the marquee and this subsequently influenced Tim to give up his tenancy at the Priory. Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards ..... thats the way I recall it being too- some part time officious woman in the OCC envoirmental(?) office reversed her predessors agreement....citing that the Marquee at the Priory wasnt in keeping with the surroundings..... which kind of screams the fact that she hadnt gone out from behind the sanctity of her desk to actually have a first hand look at the surrounding area for herself cynic that I am , at the time I speculated that the only likely complainant of the Marquee not being in keeping with the surroundings wouldve been Ka$$am himself, or one of his hired lackeys ( with the hidden agenda of over a period of time allowing the Priory to fall into disrepair and then bulldoze it to make it easier to build another hotel).... hmmmmmmm, Ive not changed my mind on that either!!! Been to the site, as you're already aware- it's all boarded up, took my box brownie, but nothing to incriminate or sound alarm bells with English Heritage or whoever. Looks as though there's been an attempt to clean up around the place, couldn't see any evidence of the arson attempts. Plenty of activity 'next door' though, the area behind the Bowlplex is being cleared, another Hotel is obviously desperately needed. It's gone quiet with my attempts to get a reaction from OCC, the Councillor I exchange emails with has yet to get back to me, so I'll give her a nudge in a day or two. Any better luck sarge?
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Post by sarge on Apr 23, 2014 17:06:58 GMT
None as yet.....though those who work for OCC only went back to work after their easter break today, & are probably easing themselves into whats left of this week!
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Post by oxymoron on Apr 23, 2014 18:14:31 GMT
Plenty of activity 'next door' though, the area behind the Bowlplex is being cleared, another Hotel is obviously desperately needed. I thought hotels were no longer in vogue, the latest trend being housing and flats in the corners....
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Post by mcf86 on Apr 23, 2014 18:43:02 GMT
Plenty of activity 'next door' though, the area behind the Bowlplex is being cleared, another Hotel is obviously desperately needed. I thought hotels were no longer in vogue, the latest trend being housing and flats in the corners.... I read somewhere that PP had already been granted for another Hotel on the site.
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Post by oxymoron on Apr 23, 2014 19:11:09 GMT
Not aware of any applications being granted. The original one lapsed and although Firoka submitted an application for an extension, they subsequently withdrew it, for reasons unknown. The current Development Plan Document gives the types of development that will be allowed on the Kassam Stadium sites and a hotel no longer fits the bill.....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 13:37:17 GMT
The priory always struggled away from match days, I wondered if it could re-open as a restaurant during the week but still act as a pub on match days? I've noticed a lot of pubs tend to do this nowadays to stay alive.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Apr 29, 2014 8:44:46 GMT
Oxford Preservation Trust has submitted the application for getting the Priory onto the 'Heritage at Risk' register. Thanks to the photographers.
The new list is not published by EH until October so we'll have to try and keep the Priory in the public (or council) eye till then.
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Post by sarge on Apr 29, 2014 10:53:57 GMT
Letters received from both OCC and Andrew Smith
OCC have commissioned a building survey to assess the condition of the site and to determine how best to protect the building
OCC are concerned about the condition of the Priory and would like to see it bought back into active use their priority is ensuring the building is wind and water tight, and secure. OCC Regeneration dept are working with their colleagues in Planning (Heritage & Conservation) to explore options, and then will be talking to the leaseholder (Firoka)
The fly tipping issue has been referred to OCC Comunity response team, although the lease holder (Firoka) is , apparently in the process of clearing the rubbish ....( the men in hard hats a week or so ago perhaps?)
Ownership status of the Priory- its owned freehold by OCC, but was 'sold' on a 99 year lease in the 1960s at nominal ground rent. The Lease, which gives the tenant FULL REPAIRING RESPONSIBILITIES, still has 50 years left to run.
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Post by Gary Baldi on Apr 29, 2014 12:31:46 GMT
Ownership status of the Priory- its owned freehold by OCC, but was 'sold' on a 99 year lease in the 1960s at nominal ground rent. The Lease, which gives the tenant FULL REPAIRING RESPONSIBILITIES, still has 50 years left to run. And that is why as fans we should not contribute anything to the Priory's internal or external structure to get it usable. It is entirely the tenants (Firoka in one form or another) responsibility and cost. They might not like it as it won't make them money, but having seen how persistent they are when a contract is breached, it's only fair they live up to the lease they willingly signed. Or buy themselves out of it.
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Post by Paul Cannell on Apr 29, 2014 12:39:20 GMT
Quite agree, Mr Baldi. The onus is on the council to hold Firoka to their responsibilities, which were stressed as long as 11 years ago in the original hotel planning application. I quoted the 2 clauses above. The fly tipping issue has been referred to OCC Comunity response team, although the lease holder (Firoka) is , apparently in the process of clearing the rubbish ....( the men in hard hats a week or so ago perhaps?) The second set of photos I received seems to show that the large pile of rubbish with signs of burning that was against the back wall (wall furthest from Grenoble Rd) has been removed. Some metal barriers have been erected but these seem to be behind the Priory and they look as if they are closing off the waste ground behind the Priory rather than protecting it. I still haven't managed to get down there.
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Post by mcf86 on May 5, 2014 6:58:52 GMT
In today's Ox Mail, 'Hopes brewing for Priory Pub' - the OGB is making the right(?) noises, saying, ''The pub could re-open if a viable business plan is presented'' and ''There are no plans to change it, it is a pub and will be a pub.''
Firoka's lease has about 50 years left to run.
The former Minchery farmhouse is a listed building and is owned, along with adjoining land, by Oxford city council.
Maybe that last line might have some bearing, with OCC owning the adjoining land- and therefore holding an ace card as far as future development goes? This might help them exert pressure on OGB to get the pub back into business if he's applying for PP?
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Post by chappers on May 5, 2014 13:58:28 GMT
wind and pi55. Thats just Kassam's response to the pressure being put on him by members of the public, OCC and English Heritage to sort the place out. It needs £100-250k spending on it. It's never going to be viable other than a match day venue, even if it could lose it's football image and was completely restored, how do you attract people to a pub sanwiched between a business park, a football ground/tin shed leisure centre and the Leys, not to mention within smelling distance of the sewerage farm. In it's present guise it just doesn't have the capacity to make it viable. No space inside to cater for food or even a decent sized bar to serve matchday punters. With the marquee it has a chance at the right rent. But who is going to take it on in it's present state and is FK going to spend the money on doing it up and then let it at a greatly reduced rent.
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Post by grumpygit on May 5, 2014 14:41:41 GMT
I bet some tragic accident will occur. Something like a fire, then OGB will bash it down.
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Post by Maurice Earp on May 5, 2014 14:54:41 GMT
I bet some tragic accident will occur. Something like a fire, then OGB will bash it down. But OGB can't, as you put it, "bash it down". Its a grade 2* listed building, and one assumes is insured appropriately for a building of its status.
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Post by oufcyellows on May 5, 2014 15:05:54 GMT
wind and pi55. Thats just Kassam's response to the pressure being put on him by members of the public, OCC and English Heritage to sort the place out. It needs £100-250k spending on it. It's never going to be viable other than a match day venue, even if it could lose it's football image and was completely restored, how do you attract people to a pub sanwiched between a business park, a football ground/tin shed leisure centre and the Leys, not to mention within smelling distance of the sewerage farm. In it's present guise it just doesn't have the capacity to make it viable. No space inside to cater for food or even a decent sized bar to serve matchday punters. With the marquee it has a chance at the right rent. But who is going to take it on in it's present state and is FK going to spend the money on doing it up and then let it at a greatly reduced rent. You say it's never going to be viable other than a match day venue. Then in that case it is never going to be viable. U can't have a pub that can only make income 23 days a year and some if those days ur only talking about 200-300 clients.
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Post by mcf86 on May 5, 2014 16:40:56 GMT
wind and pi55. Thats just Kassam's response to the pressure being put on him by members of the public, OCC and English Heritage to sort the place out. It needs £100-250k spending on it. It's never going to be viable other than a match day venue, even if it could lose it's football image and was completely restored, how do you attract people to a pub sanwiched between a business park, a football ground/tin shed leisure centre and the Leys, not to mention within smelling distance of the sewerage farm. In it's present guise it just doesn't have the capacity to make it viable. No space inside to cater for food or even a decent sized bar to serve matchday punters. With the marquee it has a chance at the right rent. But who is going to take it on in it's present state and is FK going to spend the money on doing it up and then let it at a greatly reduced rent. You say it's never going to be viable other than a match day venue. Then in that case it is never going to be viable. U can't have a pub that can only make income 23 days a year and some if those days ur only talking about 200-300 clients. Maybe it could trade as a foodie Pub selling real ales. The key points are over re-furbs and how much rent is charged.
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Post by oufcyellows on May 5, 2014 17:03:08 GMT
The rent is going to be high though to cover whatever it cost to refurb the place. Then just as u get it all done up and nice it gets smashed up on a sat afternoon leaving it a mess for ur busy night of sat and Sunday fine dinning
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Post by chappers on May 6, 2014 23:51:56 GMT
wind and pi55. Thats just Kassam's response to the pressure being put on him by members of the public, OCC and English Heritage to sort the place out. It needs £100-250k spending on it. It's never going to be viable other than a match day venue, even if it could lose it's football image and was completely restored, how do you attract people to a pub sanwiched between a business park, a football ground/tin shed leisure centre and the Leys, not to mention within smelling distance of the sewerage farm. In it's present guise it just doesn't have the capacity to make it viable. No space inside to cater for food or even a decent sized bar to serve matchday punters. With the marquee it has a chance at the right rent. But who is going to take it on in it's present state and is FK going to spend the money on doing it up and then let it at a greatly reduced rent. You say it's never going to be viable other than a match day venue. Then in that case it is never going to be viable. U can't have a pub that can only make income 23 days a year and some if those days ur only talking about 200-300 clients. I think we're in agreement over that, my point was that it definitely can't cater for anyone other than Match day punters in it's current guise due to it's capacity and it's location makes it only really suitable as a matchday venue, but the big problem is the rent and the current state of not only the building , but the site in general.
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Post by Paul Cannell on May 7, 2014 7:20:33 GMT
Maybe that will change when 4,000 new homes get built on the green belt. That's the county council's plan.
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Post by Junior on May 7, 2014 10:11:17 GMT
I've got a sneaky feeling that the result of the LW playoff game may determine the future of the Priory.....
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